Imagine the scenario:

You are hunting a bull elephant. You get charged by a big, stroppy elephant cow in thick cover (or a buffalo for that matter).

Who is responsible if:
1. The client doesn't shoot it because it is not on his licence and someone gets killed?
2. The PH shoots it?
3. The client shoots it?
4. The client shoots it and turns the charge but the cow escapes and is never found?

How does a client decide if and when to fire? Should he leave it to the PH or should the PH instruct the client as to what action to take or not as the situation unfolds?

At what point should the client decide it is time to fire if he does not receive any instruction from the PH during the charge?

I realise this is very negative and assuming everything is going wrong but such situations are the important ones for those with little or no experience who may not be able to do the necessary thinking during the charge! Input much appreciated.

Small Bore,

The PH is responsible for all the happenings on a hunt, charge situation or otherwise. The client should not fire until instructed to do so by the PH. This instruction may come in verbal form, but if the situation is life threatening may come in the form of the PH's gunfire. Even then, one needs to be careful because PH's will often fire a warning shot, depending on various factors.
Having said this, each situation is different and one should just make sure that one has good coms with the PH at all times. The value of good client/PH relations on a hunt cannot be over-emphasized. I hope that helps a little

Dave

I wouldn't say who is responsable, in any of those cases, but I can tell you my response if the charge is close, whether it is an animal on license or not, or whether or not, I had instruction from anyone! That response would be
to stop the charge myself,and worry about the outcome later! That, of course would depend on how close the animal was, and whether he was just running to get away, or had zeroed in on myself, or someone else in the party.

Like the soldier, or policemen, you don't have time to worry about anything else in a real close charge!

............. .......

An Italian motto says it is always better a bad trial than a beautiful funeral.

In Italy it is applyed, generally speaking, to a killing for self defence, but I think that it is usefull also in this kind of circumstance.

The american version is, "It's better to be judged by twelve than to be carried by six."

OOOOOOOOOHHHH Yeaah

It is not quite as cut and dried as some have stated above. There are many things to consider when shooting in self defense on a charging animal, just as there is in using deadly force in this country for self defense. First of all you need to know the rules that govern self defense in the country that you are in. In Zimbabwe taking an animal in self defense is pretty well laid out in when it is justified to shoot to kill. Do you know what the rules are? You can bet that your PH does know them. This is something to discuss with him before you start the hunt. Can you tell the difference between a mock charge and a real elephant charge? How close must the charge progress before shooting is justified. A lioness will charge up very close and then stop to scare you off. Elephant cows are known to do the same. Let the pH handle it if possible but be ready to jump in is needed is a good plan. In my case I will shoot if the animal closes within 10 meters of me or someone else in the party and I see no indication that it is going to pull up and stop.

465H&H

I've been in many life & death situations outside of hunting. I've also been charged, bluff charged and chased while hunting in Africa, sometimes while in a vehicle and sometimes on foot. It is critical in these discussions to understand the differences in human nature and human dynamics as well as animal behavior.

I am an absolute believer in mental preparation and that certainly includes mental imaging and threat response preparation in "what if" situations. Additionally, one of the best pieces of advice I received prior to my first safari was to sit down with my PH shortly after arrival and discuss "shoot-don't shoot" scenarios and any issues I have regarding the hunt. This includes follow-up shots by the PH (please don't), follow-up of wounded animals (I'm going in with you), what to say to me if you want me to shoot, etc.

I, like most of us, have a hearing loss in both ears. As a result, I used to wear fitted ear plugs - I now use electronic devices - which compromised both my ability to hear the animals as well as my PHs instructions. Your PH needs to know this sort of thing.

My own experience includes the unexpected appearance of Cape Buffalo at what is essentially point blank range. That's too late to think about what you will do. I've been bluff charged to 20 yards by Bull Ele and surrounded by a herd of really pissed Cow Ele where we really thought we would have to shoot our way out. And I brained a large Bush Pig in full charge at 6 feet with a load of #6 bird shot from a 12 gauge while hunting Blue Duiker - that one is on video.

Ask yourself this: What will I do if my PH is knocked down and is being chewed on by a large cat? Will you shoot the cat off him? If so, will you take the time to figure trajectory so you don't kill your PH when the bullet passes through the cat? Or are you mentally prepared to run up to the cat and place the muzzle of your rifle against the cat while holding it in a horizontal attitude and blow the cat off your PH?

There's a helluva lot more involved in DG hunting than having the right caliber rifle. I have many friends who are well known PHs. Most have been hit while hunting with clients and sometimes the animal gets both the PH and the client. Better to have a plan before it happens.

In Natal the ordinance says that a PH may shoot a animal that is a threat to his client or if an animal is wounded. he has to be able to proof it and law protects him.

I was told of a ph taking a big bull Ellie with a 30-06 while hunting plains game the ellie was coming for them and he brained it with the 30-06 one shot and nothing happened to him.

every situation is different and it is up to your ph to make the call he will make the right one 99% of the time.

the client is the most important and the law shows that. i dont know what is the situation in other countries like zim,tanzania enso.

maybe the other ph's can chip in

As Rudi quite rightly says, the law differs from country to country and in some countries, province to province.

In Tanzania, the various game acts basically state that it's the PHs duty to shoot any animal in defence of human life, however, he also has to be able to prove he had absolutely no choice but to take that action. - This proof will usually take the form of written statements from the game scout, client and hunting staff. If it can't be proved that the action was justified, the penalties are severe and can and usually do include a fine of three times the trophy fee, probable confiscation of the trophy and suspension or withdrawal of licence. - The trick is to get the game scout to shoot first if possible! That way, there can be no dispute in the matter.

There is no allowance in any of the acts for the client to shoot any animal that isn't on his licence. That includes animals that are named but are the wrong age, sex or below the minimum size. - Again, penalties are similarly severe.

Without meaning to insult anyone, the truth is that many/most clients wouldn't know enough about (African) animal behaviour (etc) to be able to tell the difference between a real and a mock charge anyway, so on most (note the word most) occasions, it'd be better to leave it to the PH if at all possible.

FWIW, I've been hunting Africa for close to 30 years now and have never had an experience where the client has had to shoot in defence of human life. - I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Sure it does, but only very rarely..........

Hope that helps.

quote:

The trick is to get the game scout to shoot first if possible!

In any charge situation, I would prefer not to have the game scout within shooting distance of me, let alone the charging animal!

And protocol be damn as far as I am concerned,

If my life or any of the party I am with is in any danger, I will shoot first and answer questions later.

We talked about this with the PH I hunt with, and they all agree on this.

Saeed,

My comments referred to the average client with average African hunting experience and average financial ability etc.

I wouldn't classify you as an average client (or average anything else for that matter) by any means!

I say we let the charging animal choose how he is going to die...

quote:

I wouldn't classify you as an average client (or average anything else for that matter) by any means!

I dunno Steve, he's not so tall, nor is he so short....

Anyway,

Here's a curve ball in the situation that you touched on.

What defines a charge?

Would someone with the years of [Client] experience that Saeed has react in the same way as a first time African/DG client?

Is one more likely to get trigger happy earlier or later than the other?

My view is that if something is trying to make baby food of me then I want to shoot it. I would like to think that the PH will get there first and/or respect my judgement in a tight situation, but hey that may not be the case if you shoot a charging lion in Botswana before it has actually bitten you...

Of course after a few years in an african prison, getting squashed by a cow ele might look like a good idea!!

Anyway I'm all about hearsay cos I haven't done it, but I did read "I've been to the moountain top" and learnt a thing or two about people that show restraint...

FB

There's real and mock charges and there's also charges that start as mock charges and then turn into real charges. A large part of being able to tell one from the other from the other is knowing about the body language etc of that particular species. My point was that the average client probably wouldn't know one from the other from the other. (However, someone of Saeed's experience almost certainly would) .......... FWIW, I've recently written an article on this very subject that'll soon be available.

My reference to average finances referred to the fact that (in Tanzania) one way to deal with an unlicenced animal that's laying dead in front of you following a charge, might be to buy another licence PDQ that does cover the animal and then fly it in ASAP......... that might not be an option for the average client with average finances, but not everyone is average.

ADDED

From the point of the PH, one has to be careful that the 'average' client doesn't mis-interpret a situation and by so doing shoot an animal that isn't on licence and could have been dealt with, without being shot. - When a situation like that occurs, it can be a very big problem for both the PH and the client.

Sure, many here will say that's not me or I wouldn't do that etc.......... but one needs to remember there are clients out there that are far too quick on the trigger. I saw one hunting with another PH some years ago, and he was so bad that in the end, the PH took his rifle away and had the tracker carry it and would only put it in the clients hands when he wanted him to shoot.

Let the ph shoot first you dont want to pay maintenance to your ph because you shot before you had to and he lost his lisence.

If he shoots first he takes all the reponsibility he has the license and training for it THAT IS HIS JOB

I'm not so sure I want the game scout shooting first, or at all. I've seen their AK47s, rust and all, and I've also seen what an AK on full auto will do to a human being. Most people have zero experience firing an automatic weapon and few know how to do it with some degree of control. I have absolutely no idea of how many rounds a game scout shoots in practice or training. I do know that I've had some who smoked the weed all day long, in the truck and on walkie. And most seem to be found near the rear of the order of march. No thanks!

Please understand, I've also had some very good and helpful game scouts, one armed with a .375.

I've also been in circumstances where my PH did not see the animal threat - he had walked past before the Buff showed himself at 6 feet from me. What was I to do? I have survived this long by adhering to the caveat that the only person responsible for my life is me, whether jumping out of airplanes, being 120' below the ocean at night or hunting DG in Africa. That doesn't mean I don't listen nor follow instructions, but to believe that a PH cannot miss something or make a mistake is foolhardy.

Granted, while some of us know more and have more experience than others, a first time hunter needs to listen and learn. Please don't ignore the fact that at some point in safari, some of us may have more experience than our PHs. It's happened to me more than once, and I'm not counting the appies.

Not sure what I can add to this thread. I suspect that the least of your concerns will be who-pays-for-what if you are really in a bad situation. I watched a PH stand up to a cow elephant doing an impressive charge one time. Watched a wounded cape 'buff stand up and get whacked pretty good by my pal and a PH. And once had a scrub bull in Australia attempt to charge but had too many .375 holes in him and a .458 really settled his hash. Most of my tight spots have been with two-legged problem children.

Practice, train, practice. Don't kid yourself, if you ever find yourself in a 'busy minute' (more like five seconds) your brain will go into sensory overload and the only thing that will save your butt is what you have practiced (like instinctive shooting). If you have time to rationalize what is going on, you aren't really in a tight spot. Most life/death situations are over before you realize WTF just happened.

So hang a target and at close range bring your gun up and shoot it as quickly as possible and cycle the action.

You can be a beautiful shadow boxer but what really matters is what you do after you've been punched.

I have found that without much discussion, and with a certain reliance on common sense, things have worked out fine.

You have to trust your PH and he has to trust you. Nothing else will do.

But then again, maybe I have just been lucky.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:


You have to trust your PH and he has to trust you. Nothing else will do.

100% - that is what matters most

The onus is 100% on the PH ... whoever pulls the trigger. In zimbabwe , if the client pulls the trigger and the investigation shows it was unnecessary , the PH will get a reprimand for improperly controlling and guiding his client.

the client will never have to answer to the authorities the PH will have to do that.

if the investigation and reports show that it was necessary to shoot the animal , thats the end of it . as PH s we are at the mercy of the warden or authority and the outcome can be dependant on personality and mood !!!

as mrlemma says "You have to trust your PH and he has to trust you. Nothing else will do."

if a scenario arises where you have to shoot before the ph as has been described here ...so be it , he will still have to answer for it .

personally i always brief a hunter that in a potential self defense situation he doesnt shoot unless i say so or unless i start shooting .... i also add though ,that if i am unaware of something happening , let me know...having said that, the order we walk is trackers - me - client - cameraman - scout ...and NOT strung over 500 yards !!! there are a million things that can go wrong and many of them do ...if everyone walks out alive and there is some extra paperwork thats fine so be it ...

one thing to bear in mind is that animals like elephant and lion in particular have spectacular and intimidating mock charges , if you are on the front line with the PH it can be tempting to shoot , many times the animal will stop within ten yards and turn and your PH will hopefully be able to read this .in this scenario, definitely wait for the ph ....

wounded game is a whole different discussion...if we see it , shoot it ...

quote:

I say we let the charging animal choose how he is going to die...

Every one can defend one's self... But on a charge there has to be a line of self preservation... Where one will shoot to preserve life and limb... One can yell down an ele charge most of the time... A buf, I don't think so... My self preservation line is
30 feet... Dangerous animal cross it and I will shoot...
A fellow member and friend of mine did just that on a bull ele in Zim this past year he tried to bushwack them from the side at 30 feet and down he went..


Mike

Seems to me the safest course of action is just hunt with Ivan, he can just do his magic wand thing with his rifle...

quote:

Seems to me the safest course of action is just hunt with Ivan, he can just do his magic wand thing with his rifle...

Ivan,

I've been meaning to ask you, ever try that little trick with a buffalo??

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Seems to me the safest course of action is just hunt with Ivan, he can just do his magic wand thing with his rifle...

I was wondering what that move was called..

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Seems to me the safest course of action is just hunt with Ivan, he can just do his magic wand thing with his rifle...

I was wondering what that move was called..

For anybody but ol' Gandalf Carter, I think it's called "suicide".

Ballsiest thing I've ever seen, and I witnessed two Silver Stars earned.

quote:

Ivan,

I've been meaning to ask you, ever try that little trick with a buffalo??

jeffive ,
i have only once been charged by an unwounded buffalo , it was a cow and she didnt stop .. i have approached buffalo herds on foot many times and they always take off ...

i have had many many lion charges where they have turned at the last minute when i shouted and waved my arms and rifle at them ...

all the other buff that have charged me we have ended uop killing , though all except the one mentioned above were wounded , not always by us , one bull had a bad leg , an old dagga bow with a snare , and two others with other injuries.

in my humble opinion ...buffalo dont stop !!!

quote:

Originally posted by ivan carter:

quote:

Ivan,

I've been meaning to ask you, ever try that little trick with a buffalo??

jeffive ,
i have only once been charged by an unwounded buffalo , it was a cow and she didnt stop .. i have approached buffalo herds on foot many times and they always take off ...

i have had many many lion charges where they have turned at the last minute when i shouted and waved my arms and rifle at them ...

all the other buff that have charged me we have ended uop killing , though all except the one mentioned above were wounded , not always by us , one bull had a bad leg , an old dagga bow with a snare , and two others with other injuries.

in my humble opinion ...buffalo dont stop !!!

Ivan,

I would have bet you were plenty smart enough not to try it with them