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David, Overall, i would say they are positive. I do not like the fund raising tactics, but in the end, they are trying impact hunters access to places and game. | |||
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I am a life member of a number of organizations including the NRA, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and SCI. Although I do not agree with everything that every one of these organizations have done or do, I believe that they assist me in : 1)Excercising and protecting my Second Amendment Rights; 2) Protecting my ability to hunt worldwide; 3) Make concerted efforts to restore land and hunting opportunities and practice conservation. Like Saeed, I have shot a great number of animals that would qualify high in the record books, but have absolutely no desire to be a part of that. I have also seen and participated in, firsthand, the SCI Blue Bag program and saw the difference that the hundreds of items that I have taken to Africa have made in the lives of hundreds of people. I attend the SCI convention and some of the others because I enjoy the fellowship and fun of them. I look at the alternatives, and it makes me glad that I have supported these organizations. | |||
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I voted positive, because I believe any organization that gives hunters a collective voice is beneficial. However, I don't belong myself, because any contact with SCI seems to result in a large cash drain from my wallet, for which I cannot see much benefit in either wildlife conservation or in lobbying in the interests of hunters. Other hunter/conservation groups seem to be more successful in this regard, and my money goes to those groups. What SCI does is host lavish conventions and provides forums for the hunting industry to promote their products. There's nothing wrong with this, but it just doesn't interest me. | |||
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I’m still not sure how I feel about SCI. But one thing I can definitely say is – without SCI and their Chapters, Dinners and Shows; people like me wouldn't have gone to Africa. I’m 30 years old, father of 2 and have an average job. My brother had too many cocktails at a SCI dinner and raised his hand on an auctioned PG hunt. So before I knew what happened we were planning our first Safari. I’m still paying off my 07 Safari, but I never would have dreamed I would have gone before I turned 50. Without SCI's auctions and PH’s donated hunts, a lot of people (like me) would have never gone. I also have to say that I don’t agree with all their Gold Awards and focusing everything on size. I might be wrong, but I believe they lower the record size so more people can make Gold. I’m not a “Trophy†hunter – I’m more a “Species†hunter. I have SCI Gold animals and could have won some awards in the local chapters, but I didn’t feel like entering them. They wouldn’t make Rowland so why do they make Gold? I don’t understand. | |||
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The SCI Record Books are now the world standard and if you don't understand the system then shame on you. It is no secret and is a relatively simple method which is different from Rowland Ward and others; I know because I am an Official Measurer for both SCI and RW. I am a SCI Life and SABLES Life member, served on local chapter boards, produced a $100,000 chapter auction, of which $30,000 went to national, and served a term as President in my chapter. I've attended every convention for over 12 years and will be in Reno for the 2009 event. I've also attended BoD meetings in Wash, D.C. and training sessions in Arizona. Do I agree with everything SCI has done? No, of course not, but I am also a NRA Life member and don't agree with everything NRA has done. None of those disagreements detracts from the fact that the organizations are good for the things I believe in. SCI is an IRS designated charity, 501c3 and c4. They comply with all federal IRS requirements. No SCI member is required to participate in the Awards Program nor are they required to enter their animals in the various record books. I have done so as a means of setting goals and gauging and measuring my success. You can choose to enter animals into the record book and not be required to participate in the awards program. The choice is entirely yours. I think the convention has gotten too big, too far away from strictly hunting and that the demands on donors are also too great. I don't like the fact that the millionaires who hold the positions on the national level seem to forget about the average hunter sometimes. But the fact is that SCI is now the worlds largest organization of hunters and do provide a voice at CITES, in Wash. D.C., and in foreign countries as well. I called upon a SCI African Chapter member to assist me in a dispute with a RSA HO. They came to the meeting in JNB and supported my position 100%. I believe it was in part due to that support that I and my hunting partner were able to recoup a good portion of our pre-paid fees. All hunters, and particularly all African hunters, should be SCI members. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Shame on me? I understand the WAY TO MEASURE THE ANIMAL. It just seems like it’s easier to make SCI Gold than it is to make Rowland, Boone & Crockett or Pope & Young. That’s what I don’t understand. Why have a record book that everyone can make – oh wait – I know – to make more $. | |||
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by CA Safari Hunter: That’s what I don’t understand. Exactly! Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Gentlemen, no organization is perfect. All have their flaws, and SCI is no exception. I agree with much of the criticism of SCI posted above in this thread. But despite its flaws, I believe that SCI is a strongly positive force in preserving and strengthening our hunting rights. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Hi Steve: Someone more savvy than I once said that it is impossible to reason prejudice out of a man because it wasn’t reasoned into him. You obviously are convinced SCI’s faults outweigh the good it does, so I won’t debate this aspect further. However, you and others on this forum are angry with SCI’s ethics committee because of something it did or didn’t do about complaints against an unnamed African outfitter, and this makes me wonder if the committee actually heard the case you described. People may believe they filed a formal complaint when what they actually did was send the club an unfavorable hunting report. These are filed (along with favorable reports) under the outfitter’s name and are available to members upon request, or at least they were before I retired ten years ago. Filing an ethics complaint involves a lot more than a letter “to SCI.†For one thing, the complaint must be addressed specifically to the ethics committee. Every formal complaint is not made public, but It’s doubtful a proven wrong-doer would be given special treatment just because he donated something to an SCI auction. There are so many donors that the signifance of just one donor to total auction revenue is too minor for that to be a factor. We mere members only hear about a case when an outfitter or a member loses his membership and is not allowed to exhibit at conventions or advertise in the club’s publications. Judging by the number of such announcements published in the Safari Times newspaper, there apparently are a dozen or more such actions taken every year. I know of at least one that involved a member of the SCI board of directors; another involved an outfitter who had donated several big-dollar safaris. Bill Quimby | |||
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Bill I think you are remembering the Ethics Committee as it was constituted during your time at SCI. In years past it was an Independent body that answered to nobody regarding Ethics violations. It is no so anymore. When Gary Bogner was elected to his second term he decimated the Committee by firing the independent members and appointing a bunch of sycophants and turned it into a political arm to punish his detractors and further the 'Business'. It is just a house pet now for the SCI Leadership. I do not know whether or not Out of Africa has ever been brought up on charges but I would doubt it. I think that any complaint would have been quashed prior to ever reaching the Committee. Gator A Proud Member of the Obamanation "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." Ecclesiastes 10:2 "There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them." George Orwell | |||
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I'm down with mrlexma, ca safari hunter, lion hunter, and use enough gun on this. Yes, I'm a life member of SCI (and the NRA) but I don't worship at the alter of Reno or Tucson. I've never been to Reno (or Dallas or Houston) as I'm just a 'chapter grunt'. And I'm well aware of some of the b.s. involving ethics, big checkbooks, and donations. Saeed, I want to specifically address your question on page one. SCI has done a great deal for African Hunting. I know for a fact that local chapter events ('Annual Wild Game Dinner & Fundraisers') has put middle-class American hunters face to face with middle-class PH's and sealed the deal that otherwise would have probably never happened. It brought African plains game hunting to thousands of American hunters. I have PH friends in Namibia that have booked dozens of hunts and become very established all because of their association with three local SCI chapters. For them Saeed, there was no place else for them to get established. They were unknowns at Reno and there was no other viable market for them. Funny thing, it was on my first plains game hunt to Africa 12 years ago that the PH requested of me that when I went home I join a SCI Chapter. He felt thought very highly of SCI (dispite it's warts) and convinced me it was good for hunting. What I think is overlooked is the importance of active local chapters. I believe that 90% of the African PH's out there would be better served by getting firmly established with a couple local chapters. | |||
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Gator: You are correct. I lost touch with the club's workings when I retired in 1999, and Gary Bogner certainly had the authority to "decimate" the committee by appointing new members. Each new president has that option. However, it's been a while since Bogner's term and there are new faces everywhere. Don't know what Out of Africa did/is doing, but it wouldn't hurt for injured parties to file complaints if the company still is doing whatever it was that pissed off the people on this forum. The current president should be copied, of course, but the letters should be addressed to whomever is the committee's chairman. As I said earlier, the loss of one donor would not significantly affect the club's revenue, and shouldn't be a factor in determining whether an action should be taken against his company. Bill Quimby | |||
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I'm a member of SCI, so I suppose it's only fair of me to state that I have a dog in this fight. I can't speak for what SCI has done specifically in Africa to change the situation as far as projects, donations, and the like. I haven't been to CITES conferences to see their roll. What I do know is the importance and the fundamental nessesity of groups like SCI to consolidate money on the behalf of hunting interests and to affectively lobby congress to help pass pro hunting agendas. I have had the pleasure of lobbying congress for the last 3 years for my profession. Speaking to senators and representatives on the behalf of my profession is an honor to say the least. But it's more than an honor. Lobbying allows you to inform congress men and women about the issues important to you and your organization. The money that is "extorted" or otherwise is used in campaign contributions and other things to gain support i.e. "friends" in congress. Congress men and women listen when you're a constituent. When you’re a donor they really listen! A perfect example of lobbying and having friends through campaign contributions paying off would be recently a proposal came forward in congress to end funding for rural communities in African countries. Part of this money was being used to improve rural communities and fuel conservation in hunting and nonhunting areas around southern and eastern Africa. SCI helped to spread the word about the negative affects of this action and it was stopped dead in its tracks. It may not be sexy, but it is important. The other thing SCI does that's important is file briefs in court cases and help with legal bills in important court cases. Examples of court cases SCI has helped with are DC vs. Heller, delisting the western wolves, fighting suites so water can be provided to improve bighorn sheep habitat, and fighting polar bear listing to name a few. I won't try to question Steve about allegations of extortion. I have no frame of reference on this subject and think it unfortunate if that is the case. I could see how it would hurt young operators and drive up the cost of hunts. For the scoring system I will say this. I have never sent anything I've shot to be scored. Nor do I plan to. It helps to fuel a trophy crazed agenda when hunters come on safari. It detracts from the sport. The good I do see coming from the trophy scoring program is the revenue SCI receives from this that is used to fund their efforts. As far as ethics are concerned. Things like ethics suck when you're too afraid to step on some toes, so what do you expect! Just my 2 cents! Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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I am a life member of SCI and NRA both of whom do a lot of good in my opinion. The NRA seems a bit shrill to me in some instances and is constantly soliciting more money but they are the best at what their main objective is. SCI fills the same position for the hunter who travels but was not envisioned to be just for those travelling to the dark continent. They remain, however, the best place for a N. American to locate and book a hunt to africa or any other trans oceanic location. Could it be that Shakari plans to start a business that in some way will compete with SCI. FOLLOW THE MONEY! Some of us do believe that the handling of the Out of Africa debacle was nauseating unless there is more there than meets the eye. (even to the point of damaging the rep of the organization). Just my rambling opinion. | |||
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Would someone please PM me and briefly say what Out of Africa did to incur the wrath of so many people? It obviously happened before I joined this forum in February 2006. Bill Quimby | |||
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Curse and damnation!! - Adrian has discovered my cunning grand masterplan, which was to first establish the International Safari Club, then move on to dominate the entire hunting world, raise a secret army to perform multiple coups on the night of the long asagaiis, elect myself President for Life of the entire African continent followed by world domination, restore the entire original empire (obviously including the US) to Great Britain, execute the monarchy and crown myself King 'o' the world and then force the entire world population into slavery in a cunning attempt to discover the secret elixir of life that will give me eternal life which in turn will make the Great Architect of the Universe and I'll reign for ever and ever! Sigh........ if only I hadn't criticised SCI in that original post and in turn had Adrian discover all my plans. Now, I wonder where I put that time machine I was working on. If I can find that, I can go back in time and delete that first post before I even made it! Ah shit, there goes the hair trigger on my sense of humour again!   Adrian, sorry mate, my dumb ass sense of humour gets the better of me every time. I was only pulling your leg!  | |||
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Bill, do a search on this forum and you will find an endless rip on Out of Africa. you can search some of my posts too. I posted in the past with specifics on Out of Africa and their connections to specific SCI leadership. Briefly, my dealings with these basterds lead to the documents and facts that eventually lead to the banning of Dawie from PHASA. Believe me, the SCI leadership (some, not all) is up to their eyeballs in associations with them. You will read in prior posts by others that the Federal Fish & Wildlife is or was investigating OoA for crimes (and to some extent some individual members of SCI). the investigation is no bullshit------I know because a few years ago (when I had my run-in with them) I not only recieved a call from a Fed. Fish & Wildlife investigator, But I also was interviewed at the REno SCI convention by Fed agents (the meeting/interview was pre-arranged by agents). nothin sweeter than the smell of fresh blood on your hunting boots | |||
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Thanks to all who responded to my request for info. I now am among those who wonder why SCI continues to do business with that outfitter. Bill Quimby | |||
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Bill Merle Shepherd, the President of SCI, is Bogner's pool boy. Bogner still pulls his strings. Gator A Proud Member of the Obamanation "The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." Ecclesiastes 10:2 "There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them." George Orwell | |||
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I will answer this one for you too------- FOR THE DAMN MONEY!  OoA brings in tens' of thousands of dollars a year through donated hunts-------and not just hutns donated at Reno convention, but donated hunts at State/local SCI chapter meetings across the US------ also, some of the leadership hunts with them---\some the lions taken from "close to Kruger" by leadership was with them and allegations of illegal taking of animals have been made in the past--------I don't know if laws were broken or not(with these hunts)--just heard of some alligations. get your hands on Out of Africa Brochures for the last five years or so and look at the clients photos-------you will see Vice presidents of SCI and members of the "Ethics" committee------F---king unbelievable  best wishes nothin sweeter than the smell of fresh blood on your hunting boots | |||
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I think I can probably rest my case and go back to my plans for world domination. | |||
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Don't pack yet. The ethics committee is only one facet of SCI, and nowhere near the most important. Although they are the club's primary source of funds, the same can be said about its conventions. I'm not ready to give up my membership yet. Bill Quimby | |||
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Jack D Bold brought up something that I want to mention - Safari Blue Bag. Six of us went to Namibia in '07. As it happened, three of the six are teachers of the blind and visually impaired. Through our local SCI chapter (Austin, TX) and working with the Namibian ambassador to the U.S., we - and by "we" I mean specifically my friend Jerry Hoover who really busted butt to put this together - took two blue bags to the School for the Blind in WH. Not just soccer balls but things like graphing calculators, Braille writing equipment and lots more. The school and the education ministry were very grateful. The cherry on top of this is that Jerry, through contacts at the Texas School for the Blind, was able to get a garage full of donated, surplus Braille books and supplies which were also sent over. He has done this with more books since then. The total value of all this, if new, would be well into the many thousands. It really all started out as a "let's take a Blue Bag" thing and got out of hand from there. I'm not sure if this is directly on point to the discussion, but it is an SCI program, and it does something good for a part of Africa, so I guess that's my $.02. kh | |||
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Doesn't it make sense that anyone that is trying to make a difference and trying to make it just that little bit better for the hunter in these times should be given some credit. There is no doubt that it could be better but until those that poke fingers find a better way work from the inside and make it better instead of bashing. It always seems like the workers like to bash management but are never willing to take on responsibility themselves. Unless you have the balls to do it yourself why bash the guy thats trying to do what they can as best that they can. Until there is a serious mind change that there need not be a constant coflict between labor and management we will always have elected people like Obama. | |||
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Now, I wonder how that could happen........ unless of course, that same company makes a lot of donations to SCI. 