The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Is the 45-70 a legal buffalo caliber in Zimbabwe?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Is the 45-70 a legal buffalo caliber in Zimbabwe? | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
Can anyone post the regs so that we can be sure that a 45-70 would be legal? Thanks. | ||
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| <leo> |
Does it really matter? It doesn't make the .45/70 user a poacher. | ||
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| One of Us |
If it is not a legal caliber, I think it matters. As a guest in a foreign country, we should be on our best behavior and should not make intricate advance plans to willfully violate local laws. In the case of minimum caliber requirements for dangerous game, they were enacted for good reasons. First, to ensure humane kills on magnificent game animals. Second, to ensure the safety of the client, professional hunter and staff. To consciously and willfully flout such laws is both irresponsible and unethical. But no, it would not make you a poacher. | |||
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| Moderator |
quote:But it might expose you to stiff fines under Mugabe's code of 'justice'. What would you do if they fined you say, $10,000US? George | |||
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Moderator |
quote:Hope that I get a comfortable cell with a nice view and pleasant neighbors. ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} Canuck | |||
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| Moderator |
Canuck, They'd rather have the cash! They'd try to extort as much as they thought they could get (remember, you're a 'rich (white) safari hunter'). George | |||
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| Moderator |
Unfortunately for them they wouldn't have much luck. Our Canadian funny money is only worth a little more than Zim $$. FWIW, here is the specs from Garrett's ammo, if someone knows the regulations for Zim... GARRETT'S 45-70 AMMO $50 / 20 CTGS 420-GR SUPER-HARD-CAST GAS-CHECKED HAMMERHEAD AT 1850-FPS THIS 45-70 AMMUNITION IS RECOMMENDED FOR USE ONLY IN MODERN WINCHESTER, BROWNING, RUGER, MARLIN, NEF, AND SHILOH SHARPS RIFLES. ENERGY: 3200 FT/LBS; TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE: 51; MEPLAT: .330"; CHAMBER PRESSURE: 35,000-PSI; SECTIONAL DENSITY: .287; TRAJECTORY: +3" @ 100-YDS; ZERO @ 150-YDS; -7" @ 200-YDS Canuck | |||
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| Moderator |
And here's Buffalo Bore's specs, copied from their website.... Item 8A: 430 gr. L.B.T.- L.F.N. - G.C. (1925 fps / M.E. 3537 ft. lbs.) (Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load) Item 8B: 405 gr. J.F.N. (2000 fps / M.E. 3597 ft. lbs.) (Big game up to 1000 lbs. - Expander Load) Item 8C: 350 gr. J.F.N. (2150 fps / M.E. 3427 ft. lbs.) (Big game up to 2500 lbs. - Penetrator Load) Item 8D: 500 gr. FMJFN (1625 fps /M.E. 2931 ft. lbs.) A non-expanding Full Metal Jacket bullet designed for the deepest penetration on the largest game animals. | |||
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| Moderator |
quote:5.3kJ=3909ft.-lbs. <-- Elephant,Buffalo and Hippo. 4.3kJ=3171ft.-lbs. <-- Lion,Giraffe and Eland. 3kJ =2212ft.-lbs. <-- Croc,Hyena,Kudu,Leopard,Nyala,Sable,Waterbuck,Wildebeest,Zebra, etc. 850J=627ft.-lbs. <-- Bushbuck,Bushpig,Impala,Reedbuck, and Warthog. You can check my math, but at 3200ft.-lbs., Garrett's ammo doesn't cut it, and at 3537ft.-lbs., neither do the BBA loads. George [ 07-10-2002, 21:25: Message edited by: GeorgeS ] | |||
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| one of us |
Has anyone actually had their rifles checked by a government represenative while in Africa? I haven't and I have not heard of anyone who has. In the real-world, it probably just plain doesn't matter. | |||
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| <SkiBumplus3> |
Isn't $10,000US about $50,000 Canadian? Ski+3 | ||
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| Moderator |
Ski, It sure feels like it when I have to get money exchanged! George, Item's 8A and B from Buffalo Bore are pretty close at 3537 and 3597 ft-lbs. Maybe if you threw the gun at the same time it would make 3900??? I'm bettin' no-one would even check. Just make sure you have a legal caliber in your gun case too (and get some pics with it leaning against the buff afterwards for the "official" story if you get checked!) ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} I'll do it. Canuck | |||
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one of us |
quote:Does anyone have the weight of the Marlin 1895 Cowboy? I'd like to run some recoil numbers with the above data, but I need the rifle's weight. Russ | |||
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| one of us |
George I checked your math. I got 5.3kJ equaling about 3903 ft/lbs... close enough. The very best I could find a .45-70 Govt doing was about 3500 ft/lbs at the muzzle (405 gr projectile). By contrast, the WORST a .375 H&H did at the muzzle was about 4300 ft/lbs(235 gr projectile). I think we all agree that a .375 is the min DGR. The .45-70 is not legal in Zimbabwe. Can it be done? Sure. I'll bet that 1 in 50 I can take down a Cape Buff with a .223, too. Nuff said. Using too little gun is not ethical, which is why Ive changed my mind and will not participate in the raffle. | |||
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| Moderator |
quote:Maybe if we strapped the gun to the bumper of the truck, and used the truck as a battering ram, then we could achieve the minimum energy. quote:WHAT?!?! ![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon} You mean someone might pose for photographs with a dead buffalo and a rifle they DIDN'T use ?? For purposes of deception, or commercial gain? Horrors!! George | |||
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| Moderator |
quote:The 1895G is 7 lbs, the 1895SS is 7.5 lbs and the 1895 Cowboy is 8 lbs. Stout loads in my 1895SS feel just about the same as my 375 H&H. The last calc I did based on the actual weight of my 1895SS and chronographed velocities, it came to 42.5 ft-lbs. Canuck | |||
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| Moderator |
quote:George, Methinks that we may have stumbled on why there are so few pics of lever guns with dead game in Africa. ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} Your battering ram idea would probably just about work. Canuck[ 07-10-2002, 23:40: Message edited by: Canuck ] | |||
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| One of Us |
So the 45-70 is not legal in Zimbabwe and the subject matter of the 45-70 buffalo raffle is illegal. | |||
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| Moderator |
Maybe the folks at Garrett Cartridges and/or Buffalo Bore Ammo would give us a sworn affidavit that their ammunition generates the requisite energy of 5.3 kilojoules; then, we'd be 'legal' again. If asked by Zim Parks & Wildlife authorities, we could present the affidavit as proof. George | |||
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one of us |
A Marlin 1895 CB can push a 460 grain hard cast 1975 fps and 3983 fpe. Guess one needs that 26" barrel to make it legal. Hate to ruin the lines of a CB with a Kick-eez though. | |||
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| Moderator |
jackfish, I don't think ZP&W is going to take your word that a handload will generate the requisite energy (they are a notoriously cynical lot). I think the best bet is either published ballistics or an affidavit from the ammunition manufacturer. George | |||
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| one of us |
What has the PH that Ann is working with got to say? He should know better than anyone one this forum. Roger | |||
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| <Rusty> |
Ok, guys, I had to put the Marlin back in the gun safe. It saw the Not Legal thread and it's crying! ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon} Have y'all no feelings! Rusty We band of brothers! | ||
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| one of us |
quote:Ah, thank you, sir. Well, according to PointBlank (it's all I have handy here at work), with a 500-grain tungsten-core AGS at, I'm guessing (I don't have any manuals with me) 1900 FPS, and an eight-pound rifle, with 70 grains of powder (I'm guessing again, because I don't know how much space I'd have in the case with the tungsten-core AGS 500-grain bullet)... I get 64.80 foot-pounds of recoil energy. For comparison, my 12-pound .416 Remington Magnum, with 400-grain Hornadys at 2550 FPS with 81.0 grains of powder... generates 51.81 foot-pounds of recoil energy. Yup, using an eight-pound 1895 Cowboy is going to hurt. Russ | |||
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| one of us |
quote:No, but a 500-grain AGS at 1900 would. Does anyone have the ballistic coefficient for this slug? Russ | |||
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| One of Us |
1900 with a 500 grain bullet out of a Marlin guide gun is pure fantasy. The pressures would be red hot and completely unsafe to say the least. | |||
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| <inGobwetrust> |
I have fired Buffalo Boar loads from my 1895 Cowboy and can testify that the recoil is quite harsh. I hate to do it but I am having a recoil pad installed this weekend. The hard plastic butt-pad that is on it now combined with the stock design makes it very unpleasant for extended sessions with heavy loads. Can anyone recommend a good pad that can be installed without lengthening the LOP too much? I can have it cut down if necessary but will any decent pads fit the smaller butt profile if I do? Thanks, Patrick | ||
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One of Us |
A 45/70 shooting a 400 gr projectile at 2000 fps ???? If it is it sounds like a Ruger No.1 or a Siamese Mauser and not a Marlin LA to me. ie at higher pressures. I would think the Marlin would be doing 1800 fps with a 400 gr bullet. Can anyone here who actually owns a lever action 45/70 and a chronograph, tell us what they're getting at SAFE pressures (ie and at Zimbabwean day temperatures too). Maybe before this whole idea dies it is opened up to include any legal firearm (and safe one). It is still a good idea for a raffle in my opinion. But it would be a good idea from the Professional Hunter, as they should know the score. | |||
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| one of us |
HI, This is great as with a 525 grain at near 2200 fps I will have a ME of 5,600 fps.That is right I think my 50-110 will work okay, I just got some news from MR. Sundles who just got a 525 grain bullet to 2150 fps out of his 50-110 with a 20 inch barrel.I ask him about any signs of pressure and there was none he did say the load was pretty well compressed, but thinks I could get a few more grains in it. I will have a muzzle brake on my barrel which should pick up around 40 or 50 fps more so I will be around 2200 fps without pushing MR. Sundles load with a 525 grain bullet. Thanks,Kev | |||
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| <inGobwetrust> |
NitroExpress.com, I have fired Buffalo Bore 405 grain loads out of my 1895 Cowboy with the 26" barrel and got a little over 2100 fps with no signs of excessive pressure. The recoil, however, was no picnic! | ||
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| one of us |
quote:Yes, you're quite right... even though I was talking about the Marlin 1895 Cowboy and not the Guide Gun (the raffle "writers" threw out the Guide Gun requirement -- something about p***ies not being able to handle the noise, or whatever). Anyway, I'm home now and have been playing with numbers on Load From a Disk (not the slickest software, but it was free), and I can't make these numbers happen. The best I can come up with safely is just a bit over 1700 FPS with a 500-grainer, and this falls WAY short of the 3909 ft/lbs. required for cape buffalo, as posted above. So... I dropped the weight, but that meant raising the velocity... and you know what? I STILL couldn't make the numbers happen... and not even come CLOSE! So then I started thinking "duplex." I always know when I'm getting desperate when I start thinking about duplex loads. I think Dick Casull got pretty lucky and managed to keep his eyes and fingers... and life... even though he was messing around with "triplex" loads... but hey, I'm not Dick Casull, and "Murphy" is probably a second-cousin I don't know about, or something. No, this is quickly becoming an exercise in futility (if the energy requirement, above, is factual). Even with a 26-inch barrel and a 500-grain bullet, the numbers just aren't there. And going down to ANYTHING in the 400-grain range... well, it gets worse. Now, I know at least one of you rocket scientists is going to say "Ah, Hell, them computers don't mean nuthin' compared ta REAL shootin'!" Well... we're not talking about a few FPS and a few ft/lbs. of energy... we're talking WAY SHORT of what's needed. Cancel the raffle. Bring out the bulldozers. Turn this place into a parking lot. That's it. Game over. Russ [ 07-11-2002, 11:33: Message edited by: Russell E. Taylor ] | |||
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| One of Us |
I have to respect RET's voice of reason. Query to others: Have any of you chronographed a 45-70 load in your own gun that breaks the 3903 ft lbs ME threshold? | |||
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one of us |
quote:None of this makes any difference, in the long run, because the rule is not based on what YOU CAN GET BY HANDLOADING, but by published figures of factory ammo. "Nobody will check your rifle anyway" you say? The chambering for rifle is included in the information supplied for the application for your gun permit! They simply run their finger down a list of chamberings, and when they don't find the 45-70 it will be denied! The 45-70 is simply not enough gun, also illegal! Has anyone here ever driven by an African prison? I don't know about you, but I have absolutely desire to spend any time in one! I'd rather you put me in the cage with the Cape Buffalo, at least the torture wouldn't last as long! Legality asside, what about your responsability to the BUFFALO, doesn't he deserve a better round for this fight! | |||
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| one of us |
Just a point of reference: I use 48 gr. of H-4198 to get 1930-1959 FPS with a Remington 405 gr. jacketed soft point. That's with the regular 1895 with the 22" barrel. It hurts, and it's listed as a max load for the Marlin in one of my books. Still doesn't make the Zim numbers though. Oh, and adding a thick soft recoil pad doesn't help all that much. The muzzle rise I think is the major problem, and the pad won't help that at all. The thing is still brutal to shoot-- I had a volunteer practically go into shock after firing it. He'd never fired anything bigger than a .22 before, and I had to catch the gun as he was dropping it. His eyes were blank... The Garrett ammo kicks a little worse than my handloads. I have not chrono'd it from my gun, but I will next chance I get. Pertinax | |||
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| <Mike Dettorre> |
By MACD37: None of this makes any difference, in the long run, because the rule is not based on what YOU CAN GET BY HANDLOADING, but by published figures of factory ammo. "Nobody will check your rifle anyway" you say? The chambering for rifle is included in the information supplied for the application for your gun permit! They simply run their finger down a list of chamberings, and when they don't find the 45-70 it will be denied! ______________________________________________ Your above statement is not true. Nothing I see states cartridge. It is caliber and minimum ft lbs. There is no issuance of gun permit/approval of your Nat'l Parks form in Zim (which is the permit form) as well as their version of Customs form based on caliber of rifle being listed on your forms and type of hunt being conducted. My honest suggestion with all respect to everyone is that if this concerns you don't buy a ticket. [ 07-11-2002, 19:47: Message edited by: Mike Dettorre ] | ||
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| one of us |
Mac, let's not hyperventilate over this. I filled out the form last month, with calibers, and ammo, etc. Nobody asked me what I was hunting. I could have had a .223 in the case and been hunting only duikers, for all they cared. Besides, many hunters don't have a DG rifle, and just rent one from the PH. Going to prison for trying to enter the country with a too-small caliber rifle? Come on. ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} There is one thing that is more important to them than what caliber your rifle is, when entering the country... Do you have your $30US entry fee????? Rick. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:Well now, this is interesting. It has "loop hole" written all over it. If, indeed, no one asks you to declare what game will be hunted with what gun... then I can see getting into the country with the gun as not being much of a problem. If this thing is conducted on a private ranch or whatever... well, are the "fish & game" guys (whatever they have over there) just EVERYWHERE? Still, though, there's the damn tape you folks want. Evidence. That's what nailed Nixon. Tape. Russ [ 07-11-2002, 21:29: Message edited by: Russell E. Taylor ] | |||
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| One of Us |
I would prefer to obey the law rather than talk about ways to avoid getting caught. | |||
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