quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:

Interesting. Would you pay $50000 for a piece of property on the word of the seller that it was as described? Would you give a booking agent $20000 on the promise that in 18 months the hunt you think you have purchased will still be there? That the PH won't have decided to retire on your deposit and the deposit of 30 other hunters?

Would you sell a car to some friend of a friend and trust him to send the money while you give him the title? Would you give $25,000 to an out of State dealer on the promise he would send you a boat?

Would you hire a contractor to build your house or garage with just a verbal understanding of the parameters, and pay him in full 60 days before he is supposed to start?

Apples and oranges. Your arguments are falacious. Besides, my criticism of your comment was directed specifically at your insistance that a lawyer be involved.
I stand by my original statement.
Dave

Apples and oranges? How so? Money is money.

As for the Lawyer okay, I'll give you that. Personnally I won't sign a contract with any value without someone representing me looking it over. To each his own.

Nitro, you are correct about the agents, though it varies State by State. It is one of the big secrets Agents don't want you to know. They can be held liable for the contract if it is not lived up to by the other party. In WA they are liable and have paid treble damages for misrepresentation.

That's maybe why some don't want contracts? Since they are always working on your money, they are always ahead of the game. They don't need to worry about the client not performing.

NitroX,
Not necessairly, that would be a court issue as the bulk money goes to Africa, and it would depend on whose fault the problems stated were, things are just not that cut and dried in the USA courts, thank goodness..

But it makes little difference to me, I try not to operate with contracts, but thats up to the client..

If I use a contract then its going to be a contract based hunt and could very easily work against the client as well as for him for your information...All decisions will be contract based.

If I do not have a contract to go by then you would probably get your money back in a day or two under most circumstances...I have found, within reason, its a lot less BS, to just return the damn money and resell the hunt. I keep my reputation and you get your money..Isn't that simple and clean...

An interresting note is I hunt a lot of Lawyers, even one old onery judge whom we all love and not a single one of them has ever asked for a contract???? I love these guys...

Ray

My idea of a "safari agreement" isn't a convuluted legal document. Just a simple statement outlining the main terms such as prices, concessions, what is included, what is not. Anything special the client may want and has been agreed to with the outfitter and/or agent. As I said it is more a means of communication, so everyone knows and remembers what was agreed. Terry Carr's letter in the absence of a "contract" pretty well sums it up. Especially important if booking a year or two in advance.

I don't think we are so far apart.

I agree completely with you that going to legal proceedings usually just makes the lawyers and judges richer. Usually a bad result.

I think that if you offer to return the deposit when things do not work out is commendable. A good way to keep future business.

Hey lets leave it at that.

Speaking of contracts there is a guy I'm working with now on an antelope hunt. It's just a simple 3 day affair. Success is basically assured since there are loads of antelope, the hunt is on lightly hunted private land and he can have the first hunt of the season. This guy wants assurances in writing on every aspect of the hunt and you know he deserves those assurances just as much as if he had bought a $80,000 safari. This gentleman did not have a contract and went on a verbal agreement with an outfitter for brown bear and the hunt was a disaster. The outcome of his hunt was unfortunate but he now is a much smarter consumer. More guys like this gentleman will only help the hunting business by keeping peole on their toes and discouraging agents, outfiitters, safari operators from inflating a client's expectations or just plain promising what they know they cannot deliver. I welcome a contract since it takes the nebulous factor out of the agreement for all parties involved.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

Remember if you have to go to court, guess who gets the money, are you ready to make 4 or 5 two day trips to Africa..The point is even if you win, you loose...

Maybe I'm mistaken, but if the client uses a US based agent, then the agent is the middleman between the client and the outfitter. The client then doesn't have to sue the african outfitter, he sues the agent who is US based, and thus doesn't have to take multiple trips to africa to go to court.

Erik

Be that as may be, there seems to be an argument that there are only two alternatives:

1. Word - ie a spoken agreement; or

2. A very technical gobbly-gook legaleese agreement which completely protects the agent or outfitter no matter what.

!!!!!

I really don't understand this?

Why isn't the common ground also acceptable, ie reducing the spoken word into a written document. A simple, to the point agreement.

Surely that is exactly the same as a verbal agreement except it provides absolute certainty as to what was actually verbally agreed?


I booked a hunt with an agent a few years ago and was given a legal gobbly-gook legaleese contract which attempted to say the agent and outfitter were not liable no matter what happened. I read it as meaning, even if the safari was not supplied, no refund would be payable.

I did actually still buy the hunt, but decided never to use that agent again and in fact told them on the phone that as well.

So clients have more than one option. No simple written agreement, find someone else.

Nitro

I think you would find our contract to be exactly in that middle ground you spoke of. It is a very simple document in plain english describing what is included, what is not included and our policy on deposits. I'm looking at one now and it looks amazingly straight forward to me.

Mark

NitroX, never said I would not do a contract or even let the client do the bloody thing, then have my lawyer look it over and then I will sign it..

I will if the client insists, but if I do then the whole hunt will be on the terms of the contract including pay back and refunds.

Ray

This isn't a specific discussion between you and me.

Sorry if you took it that way.

We give every client a safari contract that is very similar to the one suggested by Terry - although ours doesn't have all the whereas & whereby's etc - it just lays out who is responsible for what and cancellation policy etc.

That way there can be no misunderstanding as to who pays for what.

quote:

Nitro

I think you would find our contract to be exactly in that middle ground you spoke of. It is a very simple document in plain english describing what is included, what is not included and our policy on deposits. I'm looking at one now and it looks amazingly straight forward to me.

Mark

Well, post it. Let's have a look see.

DB

DB

Our contracts are private business agreements between Safari Trackers and our clients and not for public display. If on the other hand you would like to talk about booking a safari I would be more than happy to have the office draw up a contract for your personal review.

Mark

Sorry, Mark. I took it to be a just straight forward, simple matter that you described it to be. I understand.

DB

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mickey1:


Apples and oranges? How so? Money is money.

QUOTE]

Different because in those instances you've described you are transferring tangible items and there are distinct legal requirements (state, federal, whatever) for transfer of ownership, etc. And, even tho' you are contracting for a "service", who's going to inforce the agreement if you don't think you got what you signed up for.

I am not a lawyer, although I slept at a Holiday Inn Express and saved a bundle on my car insurance by switching to Geico. Do not attempt at home. Professional driver. Closed course. Your mileage may vary.
Dave

I tend to agree with Nitro X on this one.

I don't even think such a document need be classed as a contract as such just a written summary of whats been agreed between the agent and the hunter..I can understand Rays point that such documents don't offer offer much legal protection but it might help prevent out honest mistakes and misunderstandings between the parties concerned.

And remember this is not just about arrangements between the hunter and the agent, but between the agent and the safari company/PH also and possibly between the hunter and his buddies if he is sorting things out on behalf of a group..As these arrangements are often made 1 or 2 years in advance, and are sometimes changed or altered as things progress, I would think a written summary/confirmation would be of benifit to all parties...

I don't see it as an issue of "trust" just establishing a common understanding...

Regards,

Pete

See the thread regarding charges being filed against Out of Africa. Anyone who is not adamant about getting a written contract has no sense or has more money than sense!!!!