I thought it might be a good time to re-open this topic. I looked through T Carr's posts and couldn't find a definitive post on the subject. If there is one, a pointer please .

What I see "safari contracts" as being good for is that they clearly define what is important to the client (ie the 'customer'). This might include:

- a specific PH - would you want to hunt eg elephant with a PH who himself has never hunted elephant? That would not inspire confidence. Experience is important in all levels of the process - PH, Outfitter, Agent. Or maybe a guy you have used in the past and liked. If you do not 'get on' with the PH that would make a big difference.

- a specific camp or concession. These can make a BIG difference to your success, enjoyment and the price you should be paying.

- exclusivity . Some clients like this.

- What game is desired? What is important? So both parties know what to aim for and ensure it is possible and on QUOTA!

- Other small 'necessities'. Supplying a safari camp isn't easy but the price charged is 'FIVE STAR' so if it is going to be important discuss and agree it before hand.


To me a 'safari agreement' is part of the COMMUNICATION process. It communicates clearly what is desired and what is to be delivered.

What would the ladies and gentlemen of AR want in a safari agreement or is one necessary at all?

Excerpted from Terry's Tips and Packing List:

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:
BEFORE YOU GO ON SAFARI

A. WRITTEN CONTRACT.
Before paying a deposit, you should have a detailed written contract with the outfitter. The contract should, at a minimum, include the following:
1. The specific dates of the safari.
2. Are arrival and departure days counted as hunting days?
3. The number of hunters and PHs (1X1, 2X1, etc).
4. The name of the PH.
5. The area(s) to be hunted.
6. The daily rate.
7. The observer rate.
8. All applicable taxes.
9. Any licensing, permit or other fees or costs.
10. The animals to be hunted.
11. The applicable trophy fees.
12. The cancellation and return of deposit policies.
13. The services to be provided by the outfitter. Airport pick up and return. Field preparation of trophies and delivery to a taxidermist/shipping agent. Services of a fully licensed PH. Hunting vehicle. Tracker, skinner and camp staff. Meals, alcoholic beverages, lodging and laundry service.

Just because it is in the brochure is not good enough; it must be in the written contract. If the brochure says that you will be “the only hunting party in camp and on the hunting concession,†then put that in the contract. If the accommodations are described as having “en suite bathrooms with hot and cold shower and flush toiletâ€, put that in the contract.

Duplicate originals of the contract should be executed. Keep one original contract and the other original contract goes to the outfitter.

I think it is a good exercise to flush out any disagreements. It can also help if you put down a deposit in advance and prices change -- hopefully you will be locked in at the original prices.

Faith and trust are great but it is nice to have everything in writing so that you have a clear understanding.

NitroX,

I think that clearly laying out the particulars of a safari are important, as it reduces the odds of a misunderstanding (but not a screwing).

The ones you mention are important, as is an explanation of which costs are NOT included in the agreed upon price, what 'compensation' will be provided to the client if the outfitter cannot fulfill some of his obligations per the agreement, 'escape clauses' if new fees are instituted, quotas are cut, trophy fees are raised more than 10%, the hunting outfit is sold, etc.

It would be nice if none of this was necessary, but having been on the receiving end of some of these shenanigans, I wish there was a written agreement signed by both parties to refer back to.

George

Ladies and gentleman,

We always do a contract covering all the details of what we can provide regardless if the hunt is a 3 day pronghorn hunt or a 28 day full bag safari. This can be written up to specify any number of things that make the client comfortable. This document works for both the client and agent/safari operator in that it removes the nebulous factor from the hunt plan. After all this is a business arrangement and all parties should know what they are agreeing to. Blind trust is for religion not safaris.

Regards,

Mark

quote:

What would the ladies and gentlemen want in a safari agreement or is one necessary at all

I want recourse or an honorable, proven outfitter to go to if it goes tits up like some do.

DB

We had this discussion several years ago. I am unable to find that post, but here is my copy of my post.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Ladies and Gentlemen,

I've put together, for discussion purposes, a Safari Contract. This comes from previous contracts I have executed and from my own ideas and experiences.

This is not intended to constitute legal advice. This is for discussion purposes only. You should seek legal advice from an attorney of your choosing.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.

SAFARI CONTRACT

This Safari Contract (the “Contractâ€) dated ____________, 20__, is by and between_________________________________(“Clientâ€) and ________________________________________(“Outfitterâ€).

WHEREAS, Client and Outfitter hereby enter into this Contract for the purpose of setting forth the terms and conditions under which Outfitter will provide to Client the services as set forth herein regarding a hunting safari in ____________________________ (name of country).

1. This safari shall be a 1X1 safari (one hunter guided by one Professional Hunter).

2. The date of the safari shall be from _________, 20__ through _____________, 20__, for a total of ___ hunting days.

3. Client will arrive into camp on _________, 20__ and depart camp on ___________, 20__.

4. The charge for each hunting day will be US$__________ (the “Daily Rateâ€). There will be no charge for arrival or departure days.

5. Client will be accompanied by _______________________________ (the “Observerâ€).

6. The per day charge for the Observer will be US$_____________ (the “Observer Rateâ€). There will be no charge for the arrival or departure days.

7. VAT at the rate of __% is due on the total amount of the Daily Rate and the total amount of the Observer Rate.

8. All hunting shall take place on the ______________________________ concession (the “Concessionâ€).

9. The Professional Hunter will be _________________________________ (the “PHâ€).

10. Client and Observer will, during the safari, have exclusive rights to the camp and the Concession.

11. Services to be provided by Outfitter:
a. The services of the PH who is fully qualified and licensed.
b. Adequate camp staff, trackers, skinners and cook.
c. Adequately maintained hunting vehicle.
d. Sleeping accommodations (including all bedding and towels) with en suite flush toilet and en suite hot and cold running water with basin and shower.
e. Daily laundry service.
f. Complete camp equipment including adequate refrigeration and freezer capabilities so as to ensure proper storage of food products and ice for evening cocktails.
g. All food (including fresh and canned food stuffs of the best quality available) and beverages and bottled water (wine, beer and spirits in moderation).
h. Adequately stocked medicine chest.
i. Skinning and preservation of all trophies in the field and delivery to a taxidermist/export agent.
j. Transportation to camp from the _________________________ Airport and return. [Alternative: A company representative to assist upon arrival and departure at the ____________________ Airport and delivery to the air charter service].

12.Services Not provided by Outfitter:
a. Dipping, packing, crating and documentation necessary for the shipment of trophies.
b. Freight costs of shipping trophies to their final destination.
c. Air travel to and from ____________________ (name of country).
d. Hotel accommodations prior to or after the safari.
e. Any items of a personal nature.
f. Gratuities for the staff and PH.
g. Air charter costs, if required.
h. Phone calls or faxes made at the request of or by Client or Observer.
i. Visa, airport entry and/or departure fees.
j. Duty fees on firearms and/or ammunition.

13. Outfitter represents and warrants that it is duly licensed by all applicable national, state, provincial and local authorities to conduct the safari in accordance with all applicable laws, rules and regulations.

14. Licenses and/or permits from the country, state, province and locality (including CITES export permits, if necessary) are the sole responsibility of the Outfitter.

15. Licenses and/or permits from Client’s country of origin are the sole responsibility of Client.

16. Outfitter represents and warrants that, except as specifically set forth in this Contract, Client shall not be required to pay to Outfitter (or to any other person, business or governmental agency) any taxes, fees, permits, license costs or any other costs or expenses of any kind relating to the safari.

17. The animals to be hunted (including the sex of each animal) and all applicable trophy fees (and license fees, if any) (the “Trophy Feesâ€) are set forth in Exhibit A, attached hereto and made a part hereof for all purposes.

18. Client agrees to pay to the Outfitter, in US Dollars, the sum of $__________ as the total Daily Rate, the sum of $____________ as the total Observer Rate, the sum of $_______ as VAT as required in Paragraph 7 and an amount equal to the Trophy Fees for all animals killed or wounded by Client during the course of the safari, minus any deposit(s) previously paid as required herein. The payment of all such fees shall be paid by the Client at the conclusion of the safari in the form of _________________________ (travelers’ checks, cash).

19. Client shall pay to outfitter US$_________________, as a deposit (the “Depositâ€) toward the fees as set forth in Paragraph 18 above, upon receipt by Client of a fully executed original of this Contract.

20. In the event Client cancels the safari more than ______________ (___ months) prior to ___________________, 20__ (the first hunting day of the safari), then Outfitter shall promptly refund to the Client the full amount of the Deposit. In the event Client cancels the safari less than ________________________ prior to ________________, 20__, then Outfitter shall carry over the deposit for use by Client to the following year. If Client does not, within three months from the date of the cancellation, enter into a safari contract with Outfitter for a safari for the following season, then Client shall have forfeited the Deposit and Outfitter shall retain the Deposit as liquidated damages and the parties duties and obligations under this Contract shall terminate. (You can go several ways here, Full refund if cancelled more than 6 months before start of the safari, 50% refund if cancelled less than 6 months but more than 3 months before the start of the safari).

21. Outfitter, PH and their employees and agents shall maintain all reasonable care and precaution for the safety of Client and Observer. Nonetheless, Client and Observer acknowledge that a safari involves inherent risks. Except for the negligent action(s) or inaction(s) of the Outfitter, PH and/or their employees and agents, Client and Observer accept such inherent risks and agree to hold the Outfitter, PH and/or their employees and agents harmless from any damage or expense.

22. Jurisdiction. It is agreed that this Contract shall be governed by, interpreted and enforced pursuant to the laws of __________________. (Outfitter will probably want jurisdiction in Africa, which would require that you get an African attorney to pursue the claim, but you would then have the legal means to enforce a claim against Outfitter. If you can get jurisdiction to be in your home state, then it would be easier to get a claim against Outfitter, but nearly impossible to enforce because Outfitter has no assets in your state which you can seize).(Realistically, almost no Client is going to incur the cost necessary to bring a lawsuit against an Outfitter).

23. Any changes or alterations to this Contract, including, but not limited to, a change in the PH or the Concession, must be in writing and signed by both parties.

_________________
Client
Address
Phone
Fax
Email

__________________
Outfitter
Address
Phone
Fax
Email

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

On a previous safari, I didn't sign a contract, but I did a letter to the agent spelling out the salient points. Because of that letter, two important issues were uncovered and dealt with. First, it was a "package" deal and I added that if I didn't take an animal that was included in the package, then I would get a refund of the trophy fee. Well, because of that letter, I was informed that there was no refund of the trophy fee if I didn't take an animal. That was OK with me, but it was better to learn about that up front and not at the end of the safari. Second, because of the letter, an issue regarding the dip, pack and crate was uncovered and dealt with. It's always better to get everything in writing so you don't have any surprises while on safari. Even if you can't sue, at least you went into the agreement with everyone on the same page.

Here's the final version of the letter agreement for my last safari:

Dear (Booking Agent),

Enclosed is check No. 10xx in the amount of $X,000 as a deposit for our safari with Russ Broom in Zimbabwe.

Since we aren’t signing a contract with Broom, I have set out below the provisions of our agreement:

1. 10 day elephant (bull) and buffalo (bull) hunt with Russ Broom Safaris in their Binga concession;

2. Date of safari is June 10-19, 2003 (arrival into camp on June 9, depart camp June 20);

3. Cost of safari is US$XX,000;

4. Included in the safari cost of US$XX,000 is:
a. Daily rate for a 1X1 hunt;
b. Observer fee (for my wife);
c. Trophy fees for bull elephant and bull buffalo;
d. Charter fees, Harare to camp and return on June 9 and June 20;
e. CITES export permit cost;
f. Professional Hunter and safari crew (cook, trackers, skinners, etc.);
g. Hunting vehicle;
h. Full tentage including insect and snake-proof sleeping tents with en suite hot shower and en suite flush toilet. Mess and cook tents.
i. Full camp equipment including refrigerator and freezer. Sufficient ice for evening cocktails.
j. Fresh and canned foods of the best quality available.
k. Medicine chest including snake bite serum and malaria tablets;
l. Skinning and preservation of trophies in the field and delivery of trophies to taxidermist/exporter;
m. A company representative to assist us on arrival and departure;
n. 2% Government Levy Fee;
o. All food and beverages (wine, beer and spirits within moderation);
p. Dipping, Crating & Packing;
q. Medical Air Rescue for both me and my wife;
r. Camp exclusivity (my wife and I will be the only clients in camp).


5. NOT included in the price of the safari:
a. Government trophy fees for species other than the bull elephant and bull buffalo;
b. Air travel to and from Zimbabwe;
c. Hotel accommodations before and after the safari;
d. Gratuities to staff and Professional Hunter;
e. Air Freight of trophies from Zimbabwe to final destination;
f. Telexes, faxes or phone call made on behalf of clients.

6. Balance of the safari fee to be paid 60 days prior to the commencement of the safari.

7. Cancellation of a safari, if effected 6 months prior to the commencement date of the safari, will allow the client a full refund of all payments made to date. However, if a cancellation is made within six months of the safari all payments shall be forwarded or may transferred to the following year as a deposit on another future hunt, otherwise all such payments are forfeited.

8. Russ Broom Safaris Private Limited shall not be held responsible for any loss, damage or accident incurred by a client whilst on Safari with this Company.

As you know, we have had a bad experience with another safari outfitter, because of that we want to ensure that we will have; camp exclusivity, en suite flush toilet and en suite hot shower and ice for evening cocktails.

This is a “package†priced safari and no trophy fee refund will be made if I do not take either (or both) the elephant or buffalo. Also, I will be able to hunt a bushbuck at the published trophy fee of US$600 (the bushbuck trophy fee is not part of the “package†price).

Please advise Broom of our drink preferences. Coke, Sprite or Krest, Bitter Lemon or Dry Lemon, bottled water, gin and tonic with lime (Rose’s lime juice or similar), Scotch whisky and Castle (or similar) beer.

Sincerely


Terry L. Carr

Anyone who would go to Africa without a contract approved by his Lawyer is an idiot and deserves what he will eventually receive.

The Outfitter or Booking Agent may be the most honest man in the world but he can also be injured, incapacitated or even die before the hunt is undertaken and then you are truly screwed.

If he is not honest a contract will at least give some recourse. In some states the booking agent is on the hook even though they pretend they are a middleman. They recieve monetary payment for booking hunts and are on the hook themselves. Regardless of what they say.

If you are leery of gong to court insist on binding arbitration by a ABAR approved arbitrator. The more that is written down the less likely of a misunderstanding.

quote:

The Outfitter or Booking Agent may be the most honest man in the world but he can also be injured, incapacitated or even die before the hunt is undertaken and then you are truly screwed

Point well taken, Mickey. One would assume were the outfitter honorable, etc. and assume is where the wheels tend to come off.

DB

When growing up I always wanted to go hunting in Africa. As an adult, I've been to Africa a few times but it was job related, no hunting and not even any sightseeing.

I've lived in Australia and since then as a rule I think I would really prefer a simple buffalo hunt in NT to a full blown African safari, even though I would still like a classic African safari, because I know that in Australia I have friends everywhere. In Australia there is no oddball code of conduct requiring that everyone get "tips" via some strange social code that I don't know. Personally I think if one is expected to toss out a couple of thousand dollars in "tips", the operators should just raise the stated price by the amount they want in tips.

Also in the event of any problem, Australia has first class medical facilities, as well as suitable transport to those facilities via the RFDS.

I would go to Australia at any time, even to see people I do not know. I don't trust my luck trying that in Africa.

Richard

Them boys with OoA had a contract. What good did it do them. The bottom line is [for me] book with people you trust. There is nothing wrong with being informed, but the bottom line is you are hiring professionals, that you trust.
If you do not trust them, you should not be hunting with them.
I have only been to Africa once, but I have done a little research. I would not hesitate to trust HHK Safaris, Ian Lewis my videographer, Ray Atkinson, and many others here on AR.
For me it is simple, I tell "them" what I want to hunt, "they" tell me where to be on a specific date. It is all about trust.

quote:

ADAM CLEMENTS SAFARI TRACKERS INC.

Is a great company to do biz with , Adam is the best. a True man of his word and while he dots his "I"'s and crosses his "T"'s it dosent matter, he is a gentalman and a man of his word. period. Whqen doing biz with him a contract is not necessary as he is trust worthy. If I was dealing with someone I didnt know then I'd use a reputable agent(like the regulars here on Ar) and follow their lead.

Please make sure Adam sees this post. PM me with Verification of that, i'm not sure if he is in Tanz or here and I want him to see this. thanks

eric

Amazing!

I have been hunting for so many years, and have never, ever, even seen a contract, let alone being asked to sign one!

And hope to never to have to deal with either!

I deal with people I trust, and it seems they have the same trust in me too.

Just for the record, here are the people I have dealt with, and have absolutely no reservation in recommending them. I would hunt with them any time I get the chance.

Rosslyn Safaris - Peter Johnstone - Zimbabwe.
Roy and Alan Vincent - Zimbabwe and Tanzania.
Ntshonalanga Safaris - Peter Harris - South Africa.
Ray Atkinson - Tanzania.
Pierre van Tonder - Tanzania.

A little off subject BUT if the truth be know you are proberbly much safer going on a hunt to africa than booking into the hospital for an operation, like everything in this world the good hunts outway the bad by probly 95+ % ..

I believe in a basic ( english language ) plain agreement document or call it a contract if you wish. It will basically cover for the unforseen event if one of the parties meets an unfortunate accident or other trauma prior to the hunt, if you only have a handshake you are LOST if the worst case scenario eventuates

I dont think you need a (high fuluted long winded document) that becomes a nightmare just to read it, it will proberly frighten off most people in any event when they start to read it.

Some like Saeed DONT use a contract, Ray mostly also operates that route as well, unless the client insists of cource, and then others like myself and I would hazard a guess most consultants on this forum will give you a clear reasonably short covering document for your file

In any event,

If you legally want to hunt in SA you now (by law) require a basic contract, so dont think you can just arrive with rifles and hunt

Peter

Saeed you are one of the few who don't need a contract. You would have to be the dumbest outfitter in the world to cross you !!!!

Rosslyn Safaris - Peter Johnstone - Zimbabwe.
Roy and Alan Vincent - Zimbabwe and Tanzania.
Ntshonalanga Safaris - Peter Harris - South Africa.
Ray Atkinson - Tanzania.
Pierre van Tonder - Tanzania.

^^^^^Thats why, thats the cream of the crop add Adam Clements on that list and game over the best.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert johnson:
Saeed you are one of the few who don't need a contract. You would have to be the dumbest outfitter in the world to cross you !!!!

VIPs don't have the problems.

The small guy clients do.

My idea of a safari agreement is about communication.

I've never seen a contract. PH John Sharps word is worth its weight in gold to me.

rgp,
I have not hunted the north of Australia yet but know many that have and heard many complaints about rough and dodge Ausie set ups, so one must do his home work.
All my trips to Africa have been superb with minimal fuss but plenty of prep.
Happy Hunting,
Adam C.

quote:

Originally posted by LV Eric:
Rosslyn Safaris - Peter Johnstone - Zimbabwe.
Roy and Alan Vincent - Zimbabwe and Tanzania.
Ntshonalanga Safaris - Peter Harris - South Africa.
Ray Atkinson - Tanzania.
Pierre van Tonder - Tanzania.

^^^^^Thats why, thats the cream of the crop add Adam Clements on that list and game over the best.

I've heard the same things said about Zambia Safaris and Lee Clark. David Van Der Mullen too. The people who signed with OOA have legal recourse in the US and many have recouped money from them because they had a contract. What chance do you have with no contract?

Klinburgers and others paid out money all the time for hunts that went bad that were not there fault.

What was the name of that PH that 'vanished' last year? Where did he turnup?

When push comes to shove no one knows what another will do. How many Zim operators are fleecing customers now to get out? Their reputations are not more important than their families?

Some Companies want the full amount paid before you arrive. Why is that? Could it be that they are so overextended that they are working on the come. One hickup and bam their gone.

Eric,

When I speak to Adam today I'll have him check out your post. I'm sure he will appreciate your kind words. Your experience has been the same as mine. I could not think of a better guy to do business with. No BS just the honest facts everytime you speak with him.

Regards,

Mark

I personally believe that a contract is worth no more than the integrity of the parties involved. Sure a person may have some legal recourse if a safari goes bad but that certainly isn't going to save the safari. Further, how would you begin to enforce any relief you received from a court. More than likely any judgment would unenforceable. That is why dealing with reputable people is so important. The best reason for having a contract is so BOTH parties know what they are buying and selling on the hunt. There can be an honest misunderstanding of many details of something as complicated as a 21 day safari and that is when a written agreement is so important. I think what a contract does is help keep honest people honest.

A contract that doesn't spell out 'penalties' for malfeasance, misfeasance, or non-performance under the terms of that contract is pointless (I didn't see any in the examples above).

I doubt a judge would know how to compensate a client for breach of contract (unless he was a safari veteran, like our own JudgeG).

Get that clause in there, as well as requiring that a court in your own state has jurisdiction.
It's still no guarantee you will receive anything in the event of a judgment in your favor, but it will be a disincentive to the outfitter to try to screw you, and it's ammunition for any complaints to a toothless SCI, or as a 'nuclear option', the US Fish & Wildlife Service, which takes a VERY dim view of wildlife-related violations (towit, their aggressive prosecutions under the Lacey Act).

George

When the business men, lawyers etc. of this world take over the hunting world then its time for me to bow out, and I will...Like Saeed, and others that is exactly what I am trying to escape, the modern world where a mans word is worthless and a piece of paper is rule of law..The only thing I want to use paper for is well I won't go there....

I've primarily delt with HHK Safaris in Zim and Peter Thormahlen in SA. Peter uses a contract (but I wouldn't need on with him as I trust him completely). Graham Hingston doesn't use a contract at least not with me. I don't feel I need one with them either. Other then Graham shooting my bushbuck one year no problems at all although he has a differant story.

465H&H

Mufasa,

I think the legal part is a little nebulous but as you said the contract lays out what is provided in the hunt and what is not as well as spelling out details so there are no nasty surprises for either party. It just makes a record of what the real final agreement was. Even the most honest of people may misunderstand what the other party says. A written agreement removes the fog.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
Anyone who would go to Africa without a contract approved by his Lawyer is an idiot and deserves what he will eventually receive.

I'm just going to assume there are more "idiots" on AR than there are geniuses like you. If you need a lawyer to arrange a hunting trip maybe you shouldn't be allowed out of the house, especially with a firearm.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Eric,

When I speak to Adam today I'll have him check out your post. I'm sure he will appreciate your kind words. Your experience has been the same as mine. I could not think of a better guy to do business with. No BS just the honest facts everytime you speak with him.



Regards,

Mark

Thanks Mark, and Adam as well!!!

First of all, IMHO, CONTRACTS and TRUST are two different subjects and can coexist with one another. That is, I wouldn't hunt with somebody I didn't trust. But, having a contract does not mean that I don't trust him. And, a contract does not prevent you from being screwed, if this is somebody's intent.

With this in mind, in my business (computers) we do small to large integration projects that most times include numerous variables, assumptions, technical details, timelines, discovery phases, etc. There is a lot that can go wrong without proper communications during all phases. As such, we do a document called a "Project Scope", and it may or may not be part of a contract. It is intended to, among other things, (a) highlight and clarify the important issues for both parties, (b) summarize mounds of emails and verbal communications providing both parties with a convenient single reference point, (c) avoid miss-understandings, (d) identify likely problem areas (including likely "discoveries") with possibly a remedy or course of action, and (e) function as the "policeman" thereby allowing the involved parties to better focus on the work at hand - and deal with the few inevitable problems that are bound to crop up (versus dealing with a train-wreck from the start).

A admit to not having a formal, approved contract beyond the outfitters standard form in place for any of my hunts. However, what I have done is a document per above which I call "Hunters Expectations". I ask the PH to include anything that I should be aware of that in the past has been a problem, giving them ample opportunity to point out anything he would like to get out in the open or highlight.

This summary can be of great assistance to a PH (outfitter, agent) who is busy mid-season when everything starts to blur together, and has a few weeks (or days/hours) before your hunt to recall what may be 12-months of communications. You as a hunter want your PH to remember what you talked about and what was promised.

So what I am saying is even IF you do not care for a contract and prefer to do business with a handshake (as I do), and are hunting with somebody that you TRUST, a single document like this can make things easier for everybody and avoid the communications issues that can and regularly do occur, even among repeat clients and friends.

This is what works for me at least.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
When the business men, lawyers etc. of this world take over the hunting world then its time for me to bow out, and I will...Like Saeed, and others that is exactly what I am trying to escape, the modern world where a mans word is worthless and a piece of paper is rule of law...

Agreed. One of the main reasons I am a member of the AR forums is to figure out who is trustworthy and a man of his word. And, who I can do business with successfully.

After 30 years in business I've concluded that if you are dealing with honest people you don't need a contract. If you are dealing with crooks a contract won't save you. The dollars involved in a hunt just aren't enough to justify the expense of enforcing a contract. It is nice to have a written understanding of what you expect but don't expect to be able to hold anybody to it.

I believe a PH, outfitter, or consultant would be a fool to intentionally shaft an AR member. It results in a firestorm of negative publicity.

However, the general outline of the hunt and important specifics need to be nailed down in contract form. Common sense, professionalism, and ethics take over after that.

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:
Anyone who would go to Africa without a contract approved by his Lawyer is an idiot and deserves what he will eventually receive.

I'm just going to assume there are more "idiots" on AR than there are geniuses like you. If you need a lawyer to arrange a hunting trip maybe you shouldn't be allowed out of the house, especially with a firearm.

Dave

Interesting. Would you pay $50000 for a piece of property on the word of the seller that it was as described? Would you give a booking agent $20000 on the promise that in 18 months the hunt you think you have purchased will still be there? That the PH won't have decided to retire on your deposit and the deposit of 30 other hunters?

Would you sell a car to some friend of a friend and trust him to send the money while you give him the title? Would you give $25,000 to an out of State dealer on the promise he would send you a boat?

Would you hire a contractor to build your house or garage with just a verbal understanding of the parameters, and pay him in full 60 days before he is supposed to start?

Evidently your answer is 'Hell yes, no one would screw me'. My word is my bond. But is the other fellows? What if something happens to the other fellow? Do you think his family would take your word for the fact he owed you money?

Hunters want to trust other hunters. A brotherhood thing I guess. I was involved in trying to untwist the Van Der Mullen mess. We figured he walked with about $3,000,000.00 in cash and about $500,000.00 in hunt deposits. Trying to get trophies released by the Tanz. Government, guns that were seized from hunters who showed up thinking they were to met and go hunting, who had deposits and who didn't but claimed they did, who he had donated hunts to, tracing money to offshore accounts.

You know who got their money back? The hunters who used a Booking agent and had a contract. It was still a mess but some peole came out whole.

By the way the last I heard he was reported to be in Dubai or the Emirates. And yes I believe that their are people who he screwed that would kill him if they find him.

quote:

Originally posted by xgrunt:
I believe a PH, outfitter, or consultant would be a fool to intentionally shaft an AR member. It results in a firestorm of negative publicity.

That's intended to be a joke right? Read any of the Out of Africa threads?

Whats AR got to do with it, when you "shaft" anyone your going to pay down the road, sooner or later, every damn time...

My approach is simple, no contract, and if you don't like the way we do things, you get a refund, within reasonable bounds, but not because you just changed your mind, and we all go our own way....

If you want to know who is honest and who is not then try getting your money back once your 60 day limit is past due...or getting money back after a hunt~!

Remember if you have to go to court, guess who gets the money, are you ready to make 4 or 5 two day trips to Africa..The point is even if you win, you loose...

I sold a guy a gun once, a year later he went to a sporting goods store and wanted to trade it in, and the folks offerec him zilch for it, he had hunted with it btw...He wanted a refund..My lawyer said we could easily win the case, after two trips to another state, his lawyer fees and I still would not get the gun back...He was a good lawyer, he bought the gun and sent the original buyer his refund, and then turned around and sold the rifle and made $6000 on it!! Didn't charge me a fee...

Contracts are BS in the hunting industry IMO...If you insist I will send you one..I had hotshot lawyer hunter from NY draw me up one that covers my butt on about everything..I will fill in the blanks and give one to a client if he insists, after all he is the client but I suspect the contract protects me better than it does him....If you send me one I will have my lawyer look it over and bill you for it!

quote:

First of all, IMHO, CONTRACTS and TRUST are two different subjects and can coexist with one another. That is, I wouldn't hunt with somebody I didn't trust. But, having a contract does not mean that I don't trust him. And, a contract does not prevent you from being screwed, if this is somebody's intent.

With this in mind, in my business (computers) we do small to large integration projects that most times include numerous variables, assumptions, technical details, timelines, discovery phases, etc. There is a lot that can go wrong without proper communications during all phases. As such, we do a document called a "Project Scope", and it may or may not be part of a contract. It is intended to, among other things, (a) highlight and clarify the important issues for both parties, (b) summarize mounds of emails and verbal communications providing both parties with a convenient single reference point, (c) avoid miss-understandings, (d) identify likely problem areas (including likely "discoveries") with possibly a remedy or course of action, and (e) function as the "policeman" thereby allowing the involved parties to better focus on the work at hand - and deal with the few inevitable problems that are bound to crop up (versus dealing with a train-wreck from the start).

A admit to not having a formal, approved contract beyond the outfitters standard form in place for any of my hunts. However, what I have done is a document per above which I call "Hunters Expectations". I ask the PH to include anything that I should be aware of that in the past has been a problem, giving them ample opportunity to point out anything he would like to get out in the open or highlight.

This summary can be of great assistance to a PH (outfitter, agent) who is busy mid-season when everything starts to blur together, and has a few weeks (or days/hours) before your hunt to recall what may be 12-months of communications. You as a hunter want your PH to remember what you talked about and what was promised.

So what I am saying is even IF you do not care for a contract and prefer to do business with a handshake (as I do), and are hunting with somebody that you TRUST, a single document like this can make things easier for everybody and avoid the communications issues that can and regularly do occur, even among repeat clients and friends.

This is what works for me at least.

Bill,

Apologies for reposting your whole quote here but could you possibly scan and post a copy of what you used, as described above? Many thanks.

DB

DB – Looking over Terry’s lists, there are aspects which one would want to include, if they are not in the contract. Basic stuff like the PH, the concession, camp, etc. To this I add topics which for whatever reason are of importance or concern, and which we have communicated about in the past. These vary from hunt to hunt, although in my seven safaris I have seen some common themes.

For my past hunt, the “Client’s Expectations†included the following – this is only an EXAMPLE!!! The basic contract which I supplemented had the rates, observer fees, PH, concession, deposit and payment detail, animals on quota w/trophy fee, transportation to/from camp, and other basic info.

Client’s Expectations:
• Client will have opportunity on any unsold quota that may become available, at the outfitters standard price list.
• Client will have exclusive use of a tented “fly camp†and option to relocate to Zambezi River camp during the hunt (where exclusivity is not guaranteed). [note my two sons and I had an exclusive tented camp along the Zambezi from day-1]
• Client & PH may relocate to another hunting concession during, or after the hunt with 1-2 additional days added if/as PH’s schedule permits.
• Client has expressed the desire to eat select game as harvested during the safari, and have this game meat available for “lunch boxesâ€.
• Fishing is available and a boat with appropriate tackle will be available for use. Client can make arrangements to bring a rod/reel with advance notice.
• Limited bird shooting is possible; the PH will supply a shotgun & shells (which client will reimburse PH for).
• PH will have a spare rifle and ammunition suitable for big game hunting available.
• Client has expressed the desire for an “old African Adventure†for he and his sons, and is more concerned with the “experience†then the “trophiesâ€, as discussed with PH.

A bit silly – perhaps; all-inclusive – no, but it served my purpose, to summarize and outline the “scope of my huntâ€. The PH (Buzz Charlton) had nothing to add, but could have noted things like “Client understands that fuel and supplies are in short supply in Zimbabweâ€, etc.

Given the 6-month lag time between the contract being signed and the hunt taking place, Buzz said this was helpful not only to the concession holder (Chifuti), but also to him as again, there are only so many details that one person on company can digest. Since most do not do this on their own, I view it as part of my responsibility of being a “prepared hunterâ€. And the outfitters are not getting any less-busy...

Incidentally, we received all of the above, except that there were no shotgun shells available in Zim so we had a .22 instead which was great fun and satisfied the intent of the request.

Mutual trust is assumed. And I’d be real skeptical of anybody who would not agree to summarizing past conversations and emails into one easy to use document.

Regards, Bill

Thank you, Bill. My printed file is getting full.

DB

What we must remember is that a contract is suposed to protect the hunter and the outfitter.
I use a basic contract to cover the basics of the hunt. I have a line in my contract stating that all our correspondence will also form part of the contract. It is impossible to cover everything in a contract. This is why I prefer to enter into email correspondence with a cliet. We then have the opportunity to learn to know each other, the client can ask me a lot of questions and I can answer him, the same applies for me. By the time my client arrives he knows excactly what to expect from me and what I will offer him and I know what he expects from me and what I must do for him.

A huntig experience must not be clogged up with a contract in such a way that everybody fears it, it must still be a honest enjoyable experince. That is why corresponding with each other is so important. Up to now it worked for me.

Trust is still more important for me than the contract.

quote:

Remember if you have to go to court, guess who gets the money, are you ready to make 4 or 5 two day trips to Africa..The point is even if you win, you loose...

If you have a contract with a USA based agent, isn't the agent responsible for the outfitter (and vice versa) and removes the necessity to take action in a foreign jurisdiction?

Isn't that one of the main benefits of dealing with a domestically based agent when booking hunts in foreign jurisdictions?

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:

Interesting. Would you pay $50000 for a piece of property on the word of the seller that it was as described? Would you give a booking agent $20000 on the promise that in 18 months the hunt you think you have purchased will still be there? That the PH won't have decided to retire on your deposit and the deposit of 30 other hunters?

Would you sell a car to some friend of a friend and trust him to send the money while you give him the title? Would you give $25,000 to an out of State dealer on the promise he would send you a boat?

Would you hire a contractor to build your house or garage with just a verbal understanding of the parameters, and pay him in full 60 days before he is supposed to start?

Apples and oranges. Your arguments are falacious. Besides, my criticism of your comment was directed specifically at your insistance that a lawyer be involved.
I stand by my original statement.
Dave