Saeed, I placed a new discussion in the Big Bore forums earlier but it should have been placed here.

1) The 375 H&H magnum is not a large bore. (My reason for entering this discussion in this forum).
2) It earned a great reputation on all game including taking thousands of elephant.
3) This was being done at a time when the cartridge components were not as advanced as they are today.
4) Now I hear all the time that the 375 H&H is not to be used on elephant and that something much larger is needed.

Question) If it was successful on elephant at an earlier age and is better than it ever was now, why do so many say it is now inadequate?

Thanks in advance!

Saeed never uses a small gun. He has complained for years that Roy and Allen always make him shoot at least a 500. Never anything less. Just watch his hunts. Just kiddin.

Internet experts were not invented
back then. Simple, right?

George

I don't hear many (any?) people saying the 375 is inadequate for Elephant.

As you clearly stated, many Elephant over the years have fallen to the 375, and the solids today are even better than the ones available in the last century.

Some persons may confuse the words legal 'minimum' with 'inadequate'. The words do not have the same meaning.

quote:

Question) If it was successful on elephant at an earlier age and is better than it ever was now, why do so many say it is now inadequate?

The simple answer is they are talking about themselves.

THEY are inadequate in their shooting abilities.

I have shot many elephants, with various guns like the 375 H&H, 416 Weatherby Magnum, 416 Rigby Improved and of course our own 375/404.

Non killed any better than dead.

I've shot numerous elephant bulls with my .375 RUM / 270 gr solids (basically same thing as Saeed's 375/404) all of em dropped like a brick! I once shot an elephant cow with a .600NE, missed the brain and she took off like a bat outta hell...clearly the much larger caliber was not the answer!

You have to repeat the following in a sexy, B Grade Hollywood movie style “THIS IS A SIX HUNDRED NITRO EXPRESS! I USE IT BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING BIGGER!”

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
You have to repeat the following in a sexy, B Grade Hollywood movie style “THIS IS A SIX HUNDRED NITRO EXPRESS! I USE IT BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING BIGGER!”

Probably buys magnum condoms and puts two socks on to make up the difference.

You are a funny guy!

precise shot placement trumps power. Historically, the .303 killed more than a few elephants. Why wouldn't a .375 be effective, even more so with today's projectiles.

quote:

I have shot many elephants, with various guns like the 375 H&H, 416 Weatherby Magnum, 416 Rigby Improved and of course our own 375/404.

Non killed any better than dead.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
I've shot numerous elephant bulls with my .375 RUM / 270 gr solids (basically same thing as Saeed's 375/404) all of em dropped like a brick! I once shot an elephant cow with a .600NE, missed the brain and she took off like a bat outta hell...clearly the much larger caliber was not the answer!

Absolutely! In my opinion the so-called big bores start with the 375 H&H mag. The 375 H&H with a good bullet will out kill almost anything that uses improper bullet but even then a good bullet placed in the proper place is the KEY!
….....................……. MacD37

I was present when hunters followed a wounded buffalo into a thicket.

They found it lying down very close by.

It got up and charged them from very close, I think it was 7 yards. Both fired at the same time. One was using a 375 and the other a 500.

The buffalo dropped dead.

The 375 hit it in the brain.

The 500 hit it in the knee!

Obviously, the hit in the knee with the 500 that killed it.

Yep, had to be the knee shot!

How many is? Many?

OR numerous?

Just for educational purposes for the
rest of us that don't know the answers.

Thanks,

George

It is the 7.62 that is the most popular elephant round in Africa.

Karamojo Bell took care of approx 1000 elephant with his 7 x 57........

quote:

Originally posted by Neil-PH:
Karamojo Bell took care of approx 1000 elephant with his 7 x 57........

Poor man.

He did not hear of the experts telling him that won't kill elephants.

He was so stupid he had to try it time and time again.

Over 1,000 times!

Some people never learn!

I have a very different perspective of the topic.

We are in a different age. Different era

1. Time is a BIG factor now compared to 40+ years ago. Safaris are much shorter. People want a successful hunt in short time. PH does not have time to keep chasing animals or wounded game
2. Territory is smaller along with lower quotas. Less resource in less time = greater pressure on all concerned.
3. Those who hunt DG today are MOSTLY well off. They can afford more good quality guns and safaris. The old days offered more opportunities to average people - more game, more areas, more time but less choice of firearms and ammo. My dad was a Forest officer in the 1950s and shot 2 tigers with an Astra hammer shotgun. Later he used a FN 10.75X68. That was it. No .22 or 7X57.
4. We have a lot more of information today - from gun magazines we have moved to the internet and forums like this one. Any average guy can now debate and collect information across the world. In the old days one probably did what one's neighbour or uncle did - use a gun most commonly used and ammo was available. Today some people commission a new big bore for a safari or even a wildcat.
5. By 1960s, the double rifle was in serious decline. Factories had stopped making ammo. By 1970 one could buy a great British double for very little money. The 375HH was the norm. The 458 Win was the next option. Today you have many more options.
6. My instincts tell me that people just shoot more, reload more and experiment more today than they did 40+ years ago. That information is also shared widely today. Look at the big bore & Double rifle threads by Michael458 & srose. We have never seen anything of that magnitude by average guys in the past.

I trust that makes sense

The only thing that makes sense is, properly shot animals die.

The size of the bullets is really irrelevant to a certain degree.

There are legal requirements for a minimum caliber, and I use the smallest.

It has been very effective, leaving me no doubt whatsoever, that I can get the exact same results if I could use a smaller caliber.

When I go hunting, I have to take whatever is offered.

Shooting a buffalo or a lion at 10 paces, or shooting an eland at 500 yards.

The rifle I use does well on both.

And as the old saying goes “the proof of the podding is in the eating”.

Thank you all. You've answered pretty much what I thought. I am not certain why people claim what they do but I guess it is personal preference and what they feel comfortable with. I was looking for real answers and I believe I have gotten them right here, Thank you so much. Slipjig.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
It is the 7.62 that is the most popular elephant round in Africa.

Flying out of the barrel of the ever-popular AK47 or SKS

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
You have to repeat the following in a sexy, B Grade Hollywood movie style “THIS IS A SIX HUNDRED NITRO EXPRESS! I USE IT BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING BIGGER!”

Probably buys magnum condoms and puts two socks on to make up the difference.

You are a funny guy!

Hadn’t thought of that! Does it help?

You have two types of people who go hunting in Africa.

Those who just love hunting, have a great time, enjoying themselves with like minded friends, come home with fantastic memories that last a life time.

And you have those clueless idiots whose sole purpose in life is to trying to prove to you and the whole world that they are much bigger, more intelligent, and braver than anyone who walks this earth.

The first ones are normal people, just like you would meet anywhere, and probably comprise 99% of individuals.

The second ones are the low life, no life, selfish idiots who are even too stupid realize how stupid they are.

Going as far as to tell the rest of us that they actually communicate with the buffalo and ask it of how he wishes to die!

Can you believe it?

A moon rock has more brains than such losers!

Damn, Saeed, you have a way with words!

Shot an elephant with a 375 H&H and it promptly died within view. Shot an impala on the same trip with the same 375 H&H that I thought was shot well, but had misjudged the angle and never recovered it (still bothers me to this day).

Point being, caliber ain't everything.

Impala are tough animals!

I shot feeding towards us, less than 50 yards away.

Hit him in the neck shoulder junction going.

The bullet went through all his body, and stopped under the skin right next to his tail.

He flinched a bit. Stood there hunched up for a few seconds.

Turned around and walked a few steps.

Laid down as if sitting, stayed that we for a minute or so, then toppled over dead.

He weighs roughly 130 pounds at most.

He was hit with over 5,000 foot pounds of energy!

He should have been flung 50 meters up in the air!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Impala are tough animals!

...He weighs roughly 130 pounds at most.

He was hit with over 5,000 foot pounds of energy!

He should have been flung 50 meters up in the air!

Fifty meters in the air?

NAW, you’d need a 600 NITRO EXPRESS to do that!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
You have two types of people who go hunting in Africa.

Those who just love hunting, have a great time, enjoying themselves with like minded friends, come home with fantastic memories that last a life time.

And you have those clueless idiots whose sole purpose in life is to trying to prove to you and the whole world that they are much bigger, more intelligent, and braver than anyone who walks this earth.

The first ones are normal people, just like you would meet anywhere, and probably comprise 99% of individuals.

The second ones are the low life, no life, selfish idiots who are even too stupid realize how stupid they are.

Going as far as to tell the rest of us that they actually communicate with the buffalo and ask it of how he wishes to die!

Can you believe it?

A moon rock has more brains than such losers!

…......………….And nobody knows who Saeed is aiming that shot at!

Saeed, your obsession is not a positive sign of mental health. Didn't you once say you enjoyed Mark's books? I wonder how it would be seen here if Mark made 1500+ anti-Saeed posts? You have to learn to let it go. Mark is not going to change and it's safe to say you, more than any individual, has kept his name at the forefront of the forums here on Accurate Reloading. Remember your words of Ramadan: "Tolerance, and respect towards others, is what the world needs today." As a good Muslim, you should practice what you preach.
Cheers from Alaska and Eid Mubarak.
Cal
PS. As usual with your replies you will 1) not address the points, 2) insult, 3) ingore when you are caught in your own web of hypocrisy. Fire away!

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Saeed, your obsession is not a positive sign of mental health. Didn't you once say you enjoyed Mark's books? I wonder how it would be seen here if Mark made 1500+ anti-Saeed posts? You have to learn to let it go. Mark is not going to change and it's safe to say you, more than any individual, has kept his name at the forefront of the forums here on Accurate Reloading. Remember your words of Ramadan: "Tolerance, and respect towards others, is what the world needs today." As a good Muslim, you should practice what you preach.
Cheers from Alaska and Eid Mubarak.
Cal
PS. As usual with your replies you will 1) not address the points, 2) insult, 3) ingore when you are caught in your own web of hypocrisy. Fire away!

I have his book, never read it.

I had his videos.

Showed them to others to prove to them how NOT to hunt buffalo.

There is an awful lot of difference between tolerance and telling the truth.

Especially when it comes to dealing with deranged idiots whose sole purpose in life is self promotion, lying, and working illegally.

Towards these, tolerance means a tacit agreement that YOU are just like them.

Mark Sullivan spent years promoting his sick type of so called hunting.

Culminating in him being kicked out of Tanzania, where no one would deal with him any more.

He burnt all his bridges there.

Had no option but to gravitate to trying to work ILLEGALLY in handling farm bred cattle in South Africa and calling it HUNTING.


Here is YOUR “hunt” with him.

Read it all again.

Nothing to do with me, but proves, beyond any doubt whatsoever, how stupid idiots tend to gravitate to kiss each other’s asses!

Sorry you are so bitter, Saeed.

On December 27, 2013 you posted:
I read part of Mark Sullivan's book, and found it enjoyable.

It is his buffalo and hippo charges, and his endless silly grandstanding that I find very distasteful.

Mark hasn't changed but you have become very angry towards him and to those who like Mark. He's the finest gentleman I have met in the hunting world and a true American patriot who is very knowledgeable in the Constitution and the Founding Fathers.

You have gone from a disagreement (2013) to a jihadist hatred. I find that sad as we are all in the same boat and the boat is sinking. We should band together to fight those againt what we do rather than fight amongst ourselves.

And, Mark was not thtown out of Tanzania. That is a fabrication you have fostered for years in your anger. In your anger, you make up stories against your foe. Very much like the left Democrats do to Trump. I have written here on AR why Mark left Tanzania.

Eid Mubarak, Saeed, and I trust your Ramadan was fulfilling.
Cal

"I read part of Mark Sullivan's book, and found it enjoyable."

IO find any writing about Africa enjoyable - I have a library here of several hundred books, spanning hundred of years.

But after a few pages, did not find it to my liking.

I watch stupid videos on Youtube too, for a laugh.

Same thing regarding Mark Sullivan and buffalo hunting.

So far removed from reality.

I think he should try to get into bed with the Kardashians.

He will fit well in that crowd.

Fake to the core!

Anyone who has not read the “hunt” report on the link above should try it.

Quite amusing of how crooks in hunting, and their supporters, behave!