Seeing the debate was intense on the controversial ( free observer ) thread I just though we might keep the guests alive and kicking whilst the house is in session

Another controversial question ???

If a hunter on safari wounds an animal for whatever reason, sh.t ammo, bad shot, crap rifle, feeling sick or whatever other reason one might think of and the wounded animal is lost and not found before the hunter departs for home

Should the hunter have to pay the standard trophy fee as per the agreed contract and at the advertised specie fee list for the animal

Thoughts and ideas welcome

Peter

Yes!

Yes but I would hope he/she would have the opportunity to shoot another one.

Yes- and under Zim law, he cannot shoot another animal unless it was planned before the safari- How many animals are on quota? If you have 12 buff, you sell twelve hunts. Where do extras come from?

I didn't know it was debatable. Of course a wounded animal counts. There is leeway of course depending on the species and licence quotas. If you wound a warthog and don't find him, neither the hunter nor the PH are going to feel much wallet flinch. Sable? Nyala? Leopard? Don't expect a free lunch.

No arguments on this one.
You draw blood, you pay, it is as simple as that.

I have had an occassion where I missed a hippo, and the were you shoot, you pay.

The PH looked at the video, and could clearly see the bullet hit a small wave before the hippo. He showed it to the game scout, and they decided - without any interference from me - that was a miss, and I was not charged.

I was allowed to shoot another one.

You know, the more I hear about these arguments, the more I am convinced I am that the client is most likely at fault.

I am speaking from my own experience.

I have never, ever, met a bad PH.

I have met a number of bad clients though!!

The trouble is, as soon as a client feels he has had a bad deal, he starts screaming bloody murder at the top of his voice.

PH, on the other hand, tend to keep their mouths shut, regardless of how bad the client was.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have had an occassion where I missed a hippo, ......

With your reputation I can't believe that! You should have been charged simply on the basis that YOU do not miss!

quote:

Originally posted by DB Bill:
Yes but I would hope he/she would have the opportunity to shoot another one.

Absolutely so long as the license allows a second of the species and there is sufficient quota left.

sadly, these incidents are very often abused and the wounded animal never recorded often as a direct result of the clients insistance.

Absolutely and without question!

Would that the selfsame rules applied in this country. I've seen some remarkably bad marksmanship exhibited by other "sportsmen" here in the States over the years, and can't help but belive that "Joe Bob" and "Bubba" might spend a bit more time becoming proficient if there was money on the line. Not to even touch on hunter ethics...

Hunting should never be "poke and pray" without any downside for the shooter. I'll take that stand having signed the traveler's checks for an animal wounded and lost in 2002.

Mark

the answer is a foregone conclusion of yes, and that's been that way for years. It does go on however with one of my pet peeves; guys to hunt that take the gun out of the closet the day before and take off. Whether its a duck or an ele. a hunter owes it to his quarry to be able to shoot well. I just can't believe my eyes when i see these guys that spend thousand of dollars on a hunt, and never go to a rifle range. I probably shoot 20,000 rounds a year (down from early years) and I miss too. I guess then the answer is if you're to stupid or lazy to learn how to shoot well, and have your gun function properly, you should expect to pay.

Having paid for the Zebra that got away [leaving only one minute drop of blood at the scene] but not paying for the Baboon where no blood was found, I think everyone else should have to pay too.

However, while I don't feel strongly enough about it to argue with any outfitter, I do wonder if the entire "Trophy Fee" should be discounted a bit - after all they did not need to recover the trophy, or skin it, or salt it, or butcher the meat. Perhaps something like the "school fees" that a PH might be responsible for in the event of a bad shot selection would be more appropriate.

But I paid the money and shot another Zebra, and, as I look at the rug, I'm thankful I was able to do so!

Les

How about this- on a Mt nyala hunt in Ethophia a few years ago I was told after the hunt started that the safari was over when I shot-either killed the nyala, wounded or lost, or missed.I asked the PH 3 times if this was correct and was told thats the way it is...Has anyone ever encountered something like this?????????

I assume the hunt was FOR ONLY the Mt. Nyala? If so then killed or wounded and lost would be correct but not if you missed. sounds like the outfitter had oversold his Mt. Nyala quota and was going to present you with a difficult shot on purpose, hoping you'd miss and keep it for another client.

What was your reaction?

I think that the regulation, "You wound, you pay" is one of the most enlightened I have seen in Africa. Maybe we should have the same in the US. It sure would make hunters think before they shoot those long "wing and prayer shots". Obviously though it wouldn't work here as most hunters wouldn't admit they wounded and if the aninmal ran off many wouldn't go look for blood resulting in many wounded animals getting away to be lost. Perhaps it would work here with guided non-resident hunters.

465H&H

I have not been yet, but reading all the threads for a couple of years now,I'm with WINK, I didn't think it was a choice, to me it makes great sense.

Years ago when I went on my first payed hog hunt, they had the same system, and it made me slow down and think the shot, not just take it

before I started hunting Africa, I hunted Black Bear in Alberta, they went by the rule: "You draw blood - it's a dead bear" so having two tags on your permit, Make the shot count!! And they make it very clear when you first sit down in camp and go over the rules!!

Once I started hunting Africa, same rule!

I agree with it 100%! That's the way it is no questions, Draw blood, you bought it!

I seem to recall that it was spelled out fairly well in all the outfitters literature that I read for Africa that a wounded animal was the same as a collected animal. I actually thought it would be that way no matter where you went on guided type hunts. Seems like the right way to handle it.

I think it should be the same when hunting without a guide also because the number of tags sold for a species is determined to provide herd/game management. Benefits the hunter in the long run.

quote:

Originally posted by Balla Balla:


If a hunter on safari wounds an animal for whatever reason, sh.t ammo, bad shot, crap rifle, feeling sick or whatever other reason one might think of and the wounded animal is lost and not found before the hunter departs for home

Should the hunter have to pay the standard trophy fee as per the agreed contract and at the advertised specie fee list for the animal

Yes.

Yes.

But what about when you know you hit and wounded an animal and the PH, who was observing through a 10 power binocular, swears you missed?

This has happened to me. There was no blood or hair, but I shot at a hartebeest facing me head on, and I knew I had hit him off center just as he bolted off to his right. I insisted--had to insist--on following up the animal.

No blood for 50 meters. Then, a speck here and there. After two and a half hours of tracking, our Maasai found the hartebeest and I finally killed him. To me, that was vindication, but even more, relief at dispatching an animal I had shot badly.

So, the corollary of this wound and pay rule is: It's not enough simply to wash your hands of the matter and pay the fee for a wounded animal. If you know, or even strongly suspect, that you have wounded an animal, you must insist on following him up, and follow him up, no matter what.

How can this possibly be considered controversial? Who needs more than one shot per specie???

Dave

I agree with the "you draw blood you pay" ethos, although as much effort as possible needs to be made in following up the wounded animal and dispatching it cleanly.

I dont believe that many operations will allow you another shot at that specie of animal unless they have a number on their quota that have not been allocated.

At the end of the day its better to miss than to wound

Paying for a wasted beast--great.
Paying for a miss?? Forget it!
I imagine after laying out big $ for a nyala, the added pressure due to this rule would detract from you enjoying the hunt.
I assume you didn't miss and kept the hallowed AR tradition of 110% 1 shot kills!!

Guests

It is refreshing to read a thread with non agressive responces and views ....

Although I personally am not a PH or Outfitter, from my general experience over the years these points I mention may be of interest not only to first time Africa hunters BUT also to those Xperts whom might become complacent at times ...

1) Before you leave home, select and use good quality ammunition appropriate for the species on your wish-list.

2) Use a suitable rifle which you have practiced with and are 100% confident in using. Dont ever forgo practice for ego

3) When you get to camp always LISTEN to the PH/Guide and zero in the rifle prior to hunting, some hunters try to tell the PH the rifle is fine and does not need firing

4) Study skeletal profiles of the animals you want to hunt and talk to your PH about the shot placement as well, dont think you know it all just from reading books, camp fire talk and bar stories / there are many angles and options for taking game, all have different criteria when in the bush

4) The PH will try to get you in the best optional position to take a first up shot ( which ideally ) is the killing one, but life is not easy and hunting is a game of opportunity skill and at times some luck

5) Dont be pressured into taking a shot until you are (comfortable yourself) as we all have a tendency to get an adrenaline rush and then our thinking can get somewhat clouded.

Make sure you clearly have heard and understand when the PH says second on the left, as sometimes a hunter will take the wrong animal, and be wary of branches or twigs that might obscure your vision and even worse deflect the bullet

6) The PH will be watching carefully for the shot and contact, trust his judgement as he is the one whom has the experience and will advise you what to do next /// every situation or non fatal shot is different so dont be quick to critcise as hunting is not like taking a product off a supermarket shelf, it is a challenge

Regards, Peter

Yes!! I wounded a buffalo and paid the trophy fee. My mistake my responsibility!!!

Two things come to mind, one is that its LAW that if you wound you pay and the gamescout determines that and like it or not he can be bribed, in some countries.

On a fenced ranch all is up to the owner of the property, so its his call..He should make a fair call based on how he feels about it..

If you don't find blood then its a miss on most safaris regardless of what someone thinks...All hunters are convienced one way or the other, and that's not always correct..

Bottom line is if you wound, then pay the piper and mark it up to a learning experience, thats is what 99.9% of the hunters we have hunted do, and that speaks Kudos for our guys..

In some/most cases we have found the kill a few days to perhaps a week or so later, in which case we take the stinking head, clean it up, and usually come up with another cape for our hunter if he wants one..It will be shipped in another hunters trophies sometimes with instructions as to whom it belongs to or sent to me to take care of...

Everyone wounds animals sooner or later, hopefully very few in a lifetime, but it will happen and the more you hunt the more likly you will do so...In many cases we overlook a wounded animal if its possible, but only after an exhusted search... we loose very few, but if the hunter is a good guy, a good shot, and has the right attitude, you feel he is deserving of a mistake now and then...I see nothing wrong in that, sometime fate just takes a hand in our lives and a holier than thou approach is pure BS IMO....

On the other hand if the hunter is a poor shot because he didn't bother to learn to shoot and doesn't warn us, and wounds a lot of game, or if he is an idiot in general, and a trouble maker, boisterious and mean spirited, then he will probably have to pay, thats' just the way things are ...

Soooo, ya better not pout, ya better not cry, ya better not piss off the PH, I'm telling you why, the big mean gamescout is coming to town! Now that oughta be put to a song!

I agree 100% you draw blood you should pay for wounded lost or taken trophies.

But what if you are sure you missed and no blood or hair is found and the outfitter still insists you pay because he was sure you hit him?

This happened to a friend of mine two years ago in RSA. Same trip same outfitter another "miss", this one he did not pay for but after he returns home he gets an email from PH X saying they found the nyala later, dead, and he needs to wire the tropy fee or he will not release his trophies from the country?

bwanajcj

Good point, my PH does it this way, if there's no blood found it's a miss. He showed me a video from last year, a buffalo hunt, watching the video, looked to me like the bff was hit, my PH agreed with me. But after searching for quite some time no blood could be found, he had to call it a miss! The PH was sure it was hit but no blood and no buffalo, followed its tracks for over an hour, nothing!

On time I shot at a Impala, missed it but manbed to shoot off the horn, down low to the head. After a long search, nothing, no blood, no Impala, just 3/4's of the left horn with no blood on it, PH called it a miss, But I took the trophy out of the Impala, made it a target for a bait! I got charged half price. I had no problem with paying that, thought it was fair!

Your buddy has a problem there, I don't know what to tell you.

before I'd send a trophy fee I'd want to see a picture of some nyala horns! and it had better be in the crate when I open it!

The N'yala was in the crate when it arrived, but he swore it was not the one he shot at. the shape and mass of the horns were completely different from the one he was going after. His thoughts are that it was an animal they picked up from a leopard kill or whatever and charged him for it, claiming it to be his and making a little extra profit.

In an instance such as this, other than going to your booking agent, you have no recourse. you are totally at his mercy and his discretion.

Fantastic thread, no question...
AND, I'm not a hunter (but I will be when I win Saeed's trip!!!)
How much time / effort do you spend locating the wounded or potentialy wounded animal?

Collins

quote:

Originally posted by bwanajcj:
I agree 100% you draw blood you should pay for wounded lost or taken trophies.

But what if you are sure you missed and no blood or hair is found and the outfitter still insists you pay because he was sure you hit him?

This happened to a friend of mine two years ago in RSA. Same trip same outfitter another "miss", this one he did not pay for but after he returns home he gets an email from PH X saying they found the nyala later, dead, and he needs to wire the tropy fee or he will not release his trophies from the country?

quote:

Originally posted by bwanajcj:
The N'yala was in the crate when it arrived, but he swore it was not the one he shot at. the shape and mass of the horns were completely different from the one he was going after. .

A scam! Let me guess which country....the southernmost one?

500Grains,

you are correct sir!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No doubt, if you draw blood, you pay. On one of my safaris, we spent a few hours shooting hyrax with a shotgun. I hit one in the leg with a pellet, and drew some blood, paid the trophy fee! It was $10, but they added it to the bill! Game scout was right there.

Yes

A couple of observations:

If you actually shot it and failed to recover it after due dilligence by the ph, its a fair charge.

This is the reason that people who hunt Africa use those big rifles, premium bullets and limit themselves to high percentage shots.

I shot a white springbok in RSA with a 300 magnum and 180gr ballistic tip. The animal I shot and hit was DRT (dead right there), but an animal behind the one I shot showed blood over it. There was discussion about whether I had hit the bloody animal, and missed the one I shot at.

I opined that the one I shot at was DRT, and that it was highly unlikely the bloody animal was injured because it was behind and at an angle to the path of the bullet.

The matter was reported to the farm owner, who went out and had a look concluding that the bloody animal had just been spattered with blood by the exiting bullet from the one I laid down.

This incident left me of the mind that animals hit by bullets that kill the intended target should be the responsibility of the ph or considered an act of God. If the 2d animal is behind the target, it is the ph's fault for identifying and clearing the target. If the bullet's path is altered by striking the first animal so that it kills another animal not originally in danger, that is an act of God.

Just my opinion, but it seems logical to me. Kudude

With a known hit, yes. With a possible, and a compliant game scout, no.

Kudude,
the ultimate responsibility falls to the one behind the trigger. if a bullet exits and hits another animal, it may be an act of god, but good luck trying to get him to pay the trophy fee.

quote:

Originally posted by bwanajcj:
Kudude,
the ultimate responsibility falls to the one behind the trigger. if a bullet exits and hits another animal, it may be an act of god, but good luck trying to get him to pay the trophy fee.

Thats funny ///

like the sign I saw the other day in SHOP ....

NO CHEQUES ACCEPTED - In GOD we TRUST all others PAY CASH

Peter

Bwanajcj-You say that you have no recourse when you are the victim of an abuse by your PH but that is not all true.For instance you can lodge a complaint with the PH's licensing authoritry and you can name him and point out his practices on this and every other hunting forum you visit.We international hunters are a fairly small number and are getting more familiar all the time.Scrutiny on this website alone can do an outfit a world of hurt.

eyedoc,
This was not me that this occurred to.

Those options were used, and the reality is that after involving phasa and the booking agent he still was forced to pay the trophy fees or forfeit his other trophies.

As far as the I-Net goes I think the impact it has is less than most people realize. No matter how many forums you go to and preach how you were taken advantage of, people still book hunts through less than reputable outfitters. Because they are salemen, who are selling dreams to people who are looking to buy.