I am in my mid 50s and have hunted my whole life with Winchester Model 70s or something that is operationally very similar (Dakota 76). A couple of years ago I purchased a Chapuis 470 double but I did not shoot it much until recently. I have booked a bull elephant hunt with Buzz for May 2014. I really would like to hunt with the Chapuis but I am struggling with the transition from bolt to double. Should I spend the summer trying to get comfortable with the double or should I spend my practice time with my bolt guns (.458 Lott, .404 Jeffery, .416 Rigby) and just plan to take a couple of them? Any training ideas for a first time double owner would be appreciated.

Will be sending you a pm later today.

Mike

I did it. It isn't hard to transiton .

I would use whatever you are comfortable with. Certainly work with and play with the double. Believe me, if I can use one, anyone can use one. But it all comes down to being comfortable and confident with your weapon choice. If, in the end, that is a bolt action rifle, go for it and do not fret about it. You are going to have a wonderful time regardless of the weapon choice.

get yourself a cheap 20 guage side by side shotgun with two triggers - silver solder some iron sights on it and shoot a few hundred clays , if you still dont like the action and cant get used to the triggers then go with your bolt gun , my guess is that after a few hundred shots you will be at ease with two triggers and different action and then you can start practicing some with the double rifle ...

i echo what mike says - you are going to have an awesome time whatever you take.

That is a great idea!

GD,

You say you are struggling with the transition. May I ask how much time you've spent working with the double so far? If the answer is "not very much" I'd say give it some time and don't get frustrated.

Ultimately, I would advise to use the rifle you find yourself most confident with. I would practice with both and see how it goes in the mean time. I think you'll find that the double will all of a sudden just click with you as being a very simple type of weapon to operate. But if not, I'd use the bolt gun and never look back.

There are really two things to focus on with the double initially. Firstly, work on making the reach for the second trigger automatic and secondly, work out how you want to carry your excess ammo and the muscle movements necessary to reload it. You don't really need to become lightening fast, just comfortable breaking the action, grabbing two rounds, and inserting them. Some like loading with the strong hand. I prefer to use the weak hand to load, holding the cartridges in the manner shown in the picture at the top of the "Double Rifles" section of this forum. Either way is fine, just figure out what works best for you. Forget about holding two rounds in the fingers while shooting. That doesn't work for me.

Here's what I've done to become familiar with the double rifle in terms of both the trigger and reload issue. I purchased two sets of snap caps. The Kynoch brand is a longer lasting, higher quality item, but they lack realism. I forget who makes the other brand, but they are brown in color and are exact replicas of the rounds. Maybe someone can remind me of the brand I'm speaking of. Anyway, with two sets of the realistic snap caps, I'll put on my ammo belt, placing all four rounds in the holders. Then just practice opening the action, loading the rifle, snapping both triggers (making the trigger reach automatic), and performing a reload, then repeat the snapping of both triggers. I tend to have my rifle out at all times in my trophy room, with the belt and 4 snap caps in the belt. Throughout the day, I'll just pick it up and practice the above exercise 5 to 10 times, each time I walk by the rifle. A couple of weeks of that and you'll really have the muscle memory part down. I found this very helpful as it allowed me to get familiar with the double guns operation without burning through expensive ammo and taking the pounding associated with large quantities of live fire.

I hope that helps you some. One thing's for sure however, you'll have a hell of a good time getting ready, shooting both guns, anticipating your hunt. Then when the big event arrives and you finally board the jet for the long haul over the pond, you'll be confident with your choice and ready for a great event in your life!

Unless and until you feel that it's hopeless, work on getting comfortable with the double.

The triggers especially. Need to get used to pulling two different triggers, instead of just one. That is sometimes very difficult for people to do.

You owe it to yourself to give the double a chance, if only because you spent so damn much money on it, and the only thing it's good for is hunting African DG animals, especially elephant!

And this from a confirmed bolt action man.

If it was me, I would take what I was comfortable with. You still have time with the double but if it isn't second nature, stick with what you know.

This thread I truly don't understand. Either you CAN shoot or you CAN'T shoot. Double or bolt ,what difference does it make. I think I had shot the total of 15 rounds thru my Merkel 470 before I took it Elephant hunting and took the Elephant. No backup had to shoot. Next Elephant I took with a CZ550 in 416Rigby and I had probably fired it less than 10 times. I don't understand these people that have to practice and practice till something magic happens. I dislike recoil intensely and shoot my bigbores as little as possible

quote:

Originally posted by Go Dawgs:
I am in my mid 50s and have hunted my whole life with Winchester Model 70s or something that is operationally very similar (Dakota 76). A couple of years ago I purchased a Chapuis 470 double but I did not shoot it much until recently. I have booked a bull elephant hunt with Buzz for May 2014. I really would like to hunt with the Chapuis but I am struggling with the transition from bolt to double. Should I spend the summer trying to get comfortable with the double or should I spend my practice time with my bolt guns (.458 Lott, .404 Jeffery, .416 Rigby) and just plan to take a couple of them? Any training ideas for a first time double owner would be appreciated.

You bought the 470 with a purpose in mind and I would guess it was not destined as a collectible, to languish on the mantlepiece.

Go to the range and get to discover and know the rifle better; this will also give you the opportunity to make any refinements (if required) in time for your date with Buzz and
you will not regret the enjoyment and satisfaction this rifle will have in store for you.

The biggest transition between double rifle and bolt is the double/trigger of the double rifle. Once you get used to double triggers you'll never look back, to include shotguns. You've got to practice with the double rifle, just like I'm sure you've practiced with your bolt gun.

The double is the choice for two quick, powerful, and effective shots.

Purchase a handful of A-ZOOM snap caps and fire away. Great practice between proper shooting and also minimise to an absolute minimum any shooting off a bench with the double.

Thanks Adam. A-Zoom is the brand of snap caps I was thinking of. They are a great benefit for trophy room practice!! All the animals in my room have been shot at least a couple of hundred times with the double!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Thanks Adam. A-Zoom is the brand of snap caps I was thinking of. They are a great benefit for trophy room practice!! All the animals in my room have been shot at least a couple of hundred times with the double!

Todd I had thought it would be nice to visit your trophy room one day but it sure sounds as if I would not get in the door, it must be knee deep in empties

P.M. sent, also.

If I'm competent with a double, it is not because of spending time at a conventional range, although that's good time, too.

Here's my work up.

Ivan's idea is great and it's part of what I do. I have a great Suhl sidelock in 12 gauge and I always go shoot several rounds of skeet with it during my getting ready. I don't put on sights, though, but if you wish, you can get some of those "turkey" sights that tape on the rib instead of having to solder on something. www.midwayusa.com has them for less than $20 and they come off easily.


Two more things. I put out clay pigeons at the hunting lease and walk a route to shoot them with my doubles, sometimes putting up multiple ones for reloading practice (and because I miss! Yes, it happens to the great JudgeG and I'll sell you a shirt I had on when I did , once ).

IMHO, just having the rifle in your hands for a couple of hours does wonders. You can throw it up and aim at a leaf, a stump or a zillion imaginary elephants and you can make the noises of your youth... "bang... bang".... or "thump.... thump" (I guess with a big bore) without any recoil or expensive live ammo, moving your fingers from one trigger to the other, setting your sight picture right, finding out if a certain shirt will snag the recoil pad, etc.

Finally, get Buzz's video and shoot your t.v. with snap caps..... but don't let your wife see you doing it.

You don't tell us, GD, but, as a bolt rifle hunter, you probably normally use a scope. If that is so, then an additional practice need is going to be with iron sights on a double.

The Chapuis likely has the wide vee back sight. Your practice must include getting your front bead down in the bottom of the back vee so you don't shoot high. As many years as I've used a double, and I started with doubles, I'll still make that mistake.

To be sure where your barrels print at 50 yards, experiment with the bead at various places in the vee: just aligned with the top of the vee; at the middle; down nestled in the bottom; and, with just the top of the bead showing at the bottom of the vee.

You may have already done this with your big caliber bolt rifle, and my apologies if this is too much like telling you to start by putting the egg on the small end ...

Regards, Tim

Dry firing is not the same as a live session and you will have to shoot a couple of boxes to get yourself accustomed to recoil and the way the rifle behaves on discharge.

It is NOT the same as shooting a SxS shotgun (I have never found a 12 gauge with a similar recoil).

You need to establish the printing pattern of the barrels at various distances and decide whether your first shot will be from the left or right - it is not Gospel that you have to start with right then left - each of us have our own preferences.

Get a 12 or 20 side by side double trigger and shoot clays often. The two trigger thing will become second nature quickly.

I believe hunting small game with a double shotgun should help.

GD,
You would also be well served in attending one of the shooting schools that specialize in Africa preparation. There was considerable discussion of this recently on AR. Any of the good schools can put you in a fairly realistic scenario that will emulate the sort of conditions you will face on your ele hunt. Practicing with a bit of adrenaline running in you veins will give you the training you need to handle the double properly when the time comes. No matter what you decide to do, your first ele will be unforgettable.

...and hunting with a double shotgun from a young age because critical gun handling processes become engraved in the mind at that stage.For example shooting unloading and reloading and looking for the game at the same time.

Just drag me along, I'll back you with my Dakota!

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
Get a 12 or 20 side by side double trigger and shoot clays often. The two trigger thing will become second nature quickly.

+1

Thank you for all the comments and suggestions. Looks like I be shopping for a SxS shotgun with two triggers. My Chapuis has ejectors so should I even consider a shotgun with extractors? Or should I get one with ejectors like my double? Does it make a difference or is it really the two triggers that are the key?

I do have a couple pairs of snap caps and I have been practicing with them including reloading from a couple of different ammo belts. The one from Texas Hunt Co is my current favorite. I think I’ll get two more pair of snap caps and shoot all the elephant and buffalo I see on Tracks Across Africa and Dark & Dangerous

Yes, all my bolt guns have scopes and that is what I am used to shooting. I have shot iron sights very little. Hence, I had JJ install a Docter Optic red dot sight on my Chapuis and its great.

both eyes open point and shoot. Dont worry about ejectors. Two triggers mainly.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
both eyes open point and shoot. Dont worry about ejectors. Two triggers mainly.

Mike

-1

Doubles are the cool look but a bolt will be a lot better in the majority of elephant encounters.

Then again, in the vast majority of self-imposed screw-ups, the PH, scout, etc. will be bailing you out, so in reality it doesn't really matter what you are carrying.

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
both eyes open point and shoot. Dont worry about ejectors. Two triggers mainly.

Mike

+1

Todd, you come through all that nasty weather okay?

This brings back some memories to me of when I got my first double rifle 55 yrs ago at age 22. Though I’d loved doubles all my life the closest I’d come to shooting one was with several S/S double barreled shotguns that I hunted with almost daily since the age of six years, fond memories all.

In my case the getting used to two triggers and both ejectors and extractors as well as instinctive Point &shoot type shooting that is the tack most take with a double rifle in close quarters. That really made the change from bolt rifles to double barreled rifles easy.

I realize that many of the guys are not living in areas where they can just go out in the public mountains like I did most of my life, but I’ve always enjoyed what we call STUMP SHOOTING where one simply walks and shoot at rocks, stumps, and dead and fallen Yuccas for handling practice much the same as JudgeG does. If you do have a property where you can do that type practice then that is a real asset to learning your new double rifle so you can operate it instinctively without thinking. When you get there the rifle will simply become an extension of your body.

The only way to make the jump from bolt rifle to double rifle is shooting the double rifle a lot in a field environment. Set up to re-load and shoot economically priced Hawk bullets for your practice, and if you have a place where you can hunt wild hogs that is great practice for moving targets by snap shooting and the meat is great as well.

Don’t pay any attention to Will, he simply cannot master a double rifle and for him the bolt rifle is the perfect rifle, but that doesn’t mean it is for the rest of us. One thing that Will knows well is elephants, and both his books will benefit you for hunting them, but just disregard anything he has to say about double rifles. In his book Elephant and Elephant guns you can simply skip over the section on double rifles, and read the rest of the book.
.....................................

Good luck with your new double rifle, and welcome to the DRSS!

Mac, I see some of your "Stumps" are still listed in Rowland Ward :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Mac, I see some of your "Stumps" are still listed in Rowland Ward :-)

Some scored world class gold!
.............................................................................

Mike,

Yes we did. Thanks for asking. Lots of homes and some lives lost 5 miles north and 3 miles south of us. My family and home are safe however. Thank God for that.

BTW, I spoke to Buzz. We'll make a plan. No problem.

Good to hear you and yours are OK Todd and for that matter, the rest of you Texicans!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
BTW, I spoke to Buzz. We'll make a plan. No problem.

Thanks for that. I will keep my fingers crossed.

Glad you came through the storm okay. I saw some pictures of the hail. Yikes.

Before I read Ivan's post, I was going to suggest getting a 20 guage (sans sights) and shoot several thousand rounds on a skeet range/sporting clays range.

I grew up with an old Stevens SxS .20 guage in my hand for quail, dove, and ducks. A double points naturally, double triggers are instinctive, etc. from sheer repetition. Accordingly, there was little transition for me between a M70 (one of my preferred bolt actions) and a double rifle. The only big difference is the shotgun went back to safe automatically every time you broke it.

I'd shoot the rifle as much as possible, but I'd get a shotgun and shoot clays -- lots of clays. Still pondering Ivan's idea on the sights -- interesting idea. I don't think they will help your clays scores, however.

ALWAYS use the sights. Especially make sure of the front sight. Except at spitting distance.

Excellent advice has been posted regarding dry fire practice as a means of gaining proficiency with a weapon system. One poster reports his rifle is out in his trophy room and "each time I walk by the rifle" he conducts dry fire practice. Having investigated a number of negligient discharches, I would caution against such a training regime. Rather than a cavalier approach, I would suggest that you formally train twice a day. Select an area in your house such as a closet door backed by the concrete foundation where if an an "unloaded" firearm were to be discharged it would result in embarassing minimal property damage as opposed to tragic injury to a person. I paint the snap caps blue, a universal color denoting inert ordinance. Incidentally, brass cartridges with the primer hole filled with silicon work as an acceptable snap cap but I paint them blue. After the training session is over I unload the snap caps and put them in a red painted coffee can and announce "Training is over". I then either store the weapon or in the case of a carry gun, reload and holster. WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT BE TEMPTED TO SNAP OFF ONE MORE PRACTICE ROUND. If you follow a dedicated practice routine in a dedicated practice area your chances of ending up with a perforated television or perforated family member or neighbor are greatly reduced. The more familiar you become with gun handling, which is the purpose of dry firing, the more suseptible to a negligient discharge you become unless you develop a formal practice routine.

quote:

Originally posted by bobmn:
Excellent advice has been posted regarding dry fire practice as a means of gaining proficiency with a weapon system. One poster reports his rifle is out in his trophy room and "each time I walk by the rifle" he conducts dry fire practice. Having investigated a number of negligient discharches, I would caution against such a training regime. Rather than a cavalier approach, I would suggest that you formally train twice a day. Select an area in your house such as a closet door backed by the concrete foundation where if an an "unloaded" firearm were to be discharged it would result in embarassing minimal property damage as opposed to tragic injury to a person. I paint the snap caps blue, a universal color denoting inert ordinance. Incidentally, brass cartridges with the primer hole filled with silicon work as an acceptable snap cap but I paint them blue. After the training session is over I unload the snap caps and put them in a red painted coffee can and announce "Training is over". I then either store the weapon or in the case of a carry gun, reload and holster. WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT BE TEMPTED TO SNAP OFF ONE MORE PRACTICE ROUND. If you follow a dedicated practice routine in a dedicated practice area your chances of ending up with a perforated television or perforated family member or neighbor are greatly reduced. The more familiar you become with gun handling, which is the purpose of dry firing, the more suseptible to a negligient discharge you become unless you develop a formal practice routine.

Good grief! Give me a break.

Unlike a carry gun that is usually carried in a loaded condition, I don't normally have live 500NE ammo anywhere near the rifle while it stands in my trophy room. In fact, it stands there, snap caps in the chambers, with the firing pins down on the caps. When I start this procedure, the first thing that has to happen is to break the action open, ejecting the snap caps. Then, the only rounds being worked with are the 4 snap caps. There are NO live rounds in the belt. Only 4 snap caps. I'm the only one in the room so I suppose I could loudly announce to myself "Training is over" but I think if the wife saw me talking to myself as well as reshooting all the trophies in the room, the straight jacket wouldn't be too far off! And yes, the A-Zoom snap caps are a brownish purple in color, not to mention they are 470NE's and my rifle is a 500NE. Pretty obvious they are snap caps, not live rounds as I don't own a 470NE, or any 470NE live ammo!