The Accurate Reloading Forums
Re: 500 Jeffery on Ruger 77
18 December 2003, 13:24
500grainsRe: 500 Jeffery on Ruger 77
Quote:
Jeffeosso,
I can tell you are set in your opinions; therefore, I won't argue this point any longer. I was using Weatherby brass not A Square, by the way. I have no first hand experience with either A Square's brass or bullets so I cannot comment on their quality or performance. So, just to make sure I understand your point, you are saying that after all the 500 Jeffery shooting I did with those 'high pressure' loads I am lucky to be breathin'. Perhaps, but I don't think luck really had anything to do with.
I am very glad though, that you and DemoSam are around to keep be on the safe path. You are keeping me from blowing myself up while DemoSam is keeping me safe by telling me how my double rifle is bending open every time I shoot it so I had better stop! Thanks again for setting me straight. (both of you, DemoSam if you are reading this)
If I load a 505 Gibbs above 39500 psi will it also be ready to explode?
Regarding the feeding, I did not mean to offend you, or anyone for that matter. I do not find the 500 Jeffery particularly hard to make feed. It is simply trigonometry, bending, cutting, filing, grinding, a little milling, etc. You must understand that this entire 'difficulty' discussion is subjective. Some people find integral calculus simplicity itself, while others cannot begin to comprehend it. Some can rebuild an engine with utter ease, while others cannot figure out how to check the oil level. The list goes on. Again I meant no offense, and I hope than none was taken.
500grains,
I can tell from your posts that you have absolutely no experience with the 500 Jeffery; therefore, you are not qualified to discuss the pros and cons of the cartridge. At least jeffeosso has made a 500 Jeffery (or he claims to have and I have no reason to doubt him), so he is entitled to his opinion based upon his experiences.
Between this post and your 'ratty english double' post I think I have a relatively accurate measure of you.
Scott
Actually we all have an accurate measure of the troll Scott Sweet/ToddE/Axel/Judy/etc. who posts pictures of guns that he has never handled yet claims to own them, and also posts lots of uninformed and naive misconceptions regarding the construction and ballistics of big bore rifles.
18 December 2003, 02:52
jeffeossoScott,
I'll disagree with you on EVERY thing you have said in regards to the 500 a2/510 wells and the 500 jeffe, EXCEPT the jeffe has more class.
the weatherby based rounds are FAR more friendly to feed. I know... I've built the jeffery. The weatherby based are DESIGNED for higher pressure, the jeffe isn't. When loaded to spec, the woundabeast based stuff FAR outruns the jeffe, with LOTS more power.
Sure, you can hop up the jeffe the match them... then it's not a jeffe anymore, it's a high pressure round, which the jeffe AINT.
yes, it is a bitch to get to feed right.
the jeffe runs at about 68% of the pressure of the asquare, "scott"... 43k vs 63K... even judy knows that MOST of the the time, you have to have higher pressure to make a smaller case go faster.
then again, toddE, axel, judy, and 500ahr have all claimed to have had these rounds, and the 500 ahr, or that their spouses did. and the only pic that ever come from it was one stolen from ed's site.
I am just saying that the ONLY reason I did the jeffe is that i am jeffe. the wells/a2 is a far superior round, in terms of bullets coming out of the barrel. which is, of course, why it is used.
"slighty wider mag" indeed
to answer the question, the 495 asquare is roughly the same length as the 500 jeffery, and might be a choice. I am going to try and build a 500 jeffe on a mauser, just to see if i can do it
jeffe
18 December 2003, 05:31
500grainsQuote:
The 500 A Square lacks both the power, and more importantly, the class of the 500 Jeffery.
???
The 500 A2 pushes 600 grains at 2450 fps. The 500 jeff standard load pushes 535 grains at 2400 fps with current factory loads, although you can reload it to higher levels.
Quote:
BTW, the feeding issue is grossly over exaggerated. The Jeffery requires a wider magazine box, that is all.
A well-done 500 jeff uses either a flat or a U-shaped follower rather than the standard mauser follower. The idea is to put the cartridge as high as possible so that as the bolt comes up it will not tend to override the rim. So there is a bit more difference than just the mag box.
Quote:
Finally, if it comes to resale, the Jeffery will hands down beat the A Square, which is practically a wildcat, and not overly appreciated by the pocketbooks of those looking for a class act 50 caliber hunting rifle, at least not in my experience.
Well, I don't agree with this characterization, but there are a handful of people who will pay a bit more money for nostalgia.
Also, good quality 500 jeff brass is rare as hen's teeth. But good quality 500 A2 brass starts out as Norma 460 wby brass. Quality brass of the right dimensions that is very important to relable feeding and extraction, giving the 500 A2 a distinct edge.
In a poor man's rifle, the 500 A2 also has an edge because it is a cheap and almost mindless conversion for a cz550 in 416 rig.
18 December 2003, 07:24
ScottSJeffeosso,
The 500 Jeffery is loaded to 48,000 psi in factory offerings. The 500 A Square is around 62000 psi. If you load you 500 Jeffery to 57000 psi it will easily outperform the 500 A Square. I know as I have 'been there and done that'. Why do you say that the 500 Jeffery brass is 'low pressure'? I would like an explanation, if you do not mind?
The only advantage I can see that the 500 A Square has is one additional round in the magazine, and I am not too even sure if that is a 'real' advantage.
Scott
18 December 2003, 07:56
jeffeossoSteve,
sure, .. much like the lapua making new brass for the 338 lapua rather than utilizing 416 rigby... or 454 casull using their own brass rather than 45 LC brass, the thickness could be an issue....
COULD BE being the critical point here.
and for a PERFECT 500 jeffery to higher pressure, have a look at the 500 AHR
http://www.hunting-rifles.com/casecomp.htmlthere's REASON not LUCK involved here
and yes, if you load the 460 based rounds to the same pressure, there will be less powder, and less energy, etc etc etc... but that's NOT the comparison... you CAN load the 460 based stuff TO 500 jeffe easy.. but not the other way around.
jeffe
18 December 2003, 08:32
ScottSjeffeosso,
I asssume your reference to 'Steve' is to me. My name is Scott, by the way. Your statements sound very much like those made by another gentleman. He stated that he had run finite element analysis of double rifle / shotgun actions and determined that the SXS actions will yield when fired! I have literally shot hundreds upon hundreds of rounds though my double rifle without experiencing any yielding.
With regard to the brass. I have again literally shot hundreds upon hundreds of 500 Jeffery loads at approximately 57000 psi, this is of course a guessed upon pressure. The actual chronographed data was 570 gr Woodleigh soft point at 2485 fps. I never once experienced any head expansion, blown primers, or anything else which would suggest that the brass was too weak. On the contrary, the 500 A Square, which I again shot hundreds of rounds through, did show slight case head expansion when loaded to 2450 fps. To me anyway, it would seem that the 'high-pressure' 500 A Square brass was weaker than the 'low pressure' 500 Jeffery.
Like the example of the double rifle, I base my opinion on real life experience, not some arbitrary analysis.
Scott
18 December 2003, 09:18
jeffeossoScott,
I didn't say "a square brass" now, did I? Not once... rather weatherby brass. "a square" brass, like bertram is rubbish.
Let's get back to the point. many gun makers redeux the brass for making an old shape into high pressure. This is not open for discusion.
In fact, winchester changed their 45 LC when people started loading it hot.
Hmm, finite element analysis? I can barely SPELL that. I can suggest, however, than we are discussing bolt guns, as there is no way I could be prompted into shooting a double rifle loaded in ANY 500 except the 500 nitro, 577/500 or 50/90.
My suggestion still stands... and the FACT that woundabeast brass is 1/4 the price of jeffery brass. The FACT that it's far easier to get a 460 based round to feed, and the FACT that 500 jeffe is meant to shoot 535gr at 2450. These are facts.
It's far easier, and safer, to shoot the 500 s2 or 510 wells loaded DOWN to 500 jeffe than the other way around.
have a nice day, now
jeffe
18 December 2003, 09:30
500grainsQuote:
I have again literally shot hundreds upon hundreds of 500 Jeffery loads at approximately 57000 psi, this is of course a guessed upon pressure.
I doubt that there is anyone in the country who has shot hundreds of rounds of full pressure 500 jeffery loads.
18 December 2003, 09:34
jeffeossohey 500...
I have shot hundreds... just not a anthing over about 40-45k
let's see...
250 hawks
150 bridger
50 woodleigh
~300 custom cast bullets
1/2 a dozen m2 ball.
and broke 2 stocks doing it
jeffe
18 December 2003, 13:04
ScottSJeffeosso,
I can tell you are set in your opinions; therefore, I won't argue this point any longer. I was using Weatherby brass not A Square, by the way. I have no first hand experience with either A Square's brass or bullets so I cannot comment on their quality or performance. So, just to make sure I understand your point, you are saying that after all the 500 Jeffery shooting I did with those 'high pressure' loads I am lucky to be breathin'. Perhaps, but I don't think luck really had anything to do with.
I am very glad though, that you and DemoSam are around to keep be on the safe path. You are keeping me from blowing myself up while DemoSam is keeping me safe by telling me how my double rifle is bending open every time I shoot it so I had better stop! Thanks again for setting me straight. (both of you, DemoSam if you are reading this)
If I load a 505 Gibbs above 39500 psi will it also be ready to explode?
Regarding the feeding, I did not mean to offend you, or anyone for that matter. I do not find the 500 Jeffery particularly hard to make feed. It is simply trigonometry, bending, cutting, filing, grinding, a little milling, etc. You must understand that this entire 'difficulty' discussion is subjective. Some people find integral calculus simplicity itself, while others cannot begin to comprehend it. Some can rebuild an engine with utter ease, while others cannot figure out how to check the oil level. The list goes on. Again I meant no offense, and I hope than none was taken.
500grains,
I can tell from your posts that you have absolutely no experience with the 500 Jeffery; therefore, you are not qualified to discuss the pros and cons of the cartridge. At least jeffeosso has made a 500 Jeffery (or he claims to have and I have no reason to doubt him), so he is entitled to his opinion based upon his experiences.
Between this post and your 'ratty english double' post I think I have a relatively accurate measure of you.
Scott
19 December 2003, 06:37
ScottSWho is this Scott Sweet/ToddE/Axel/Judy/etc individual of whom so many of you speak?
500grains, your last post is pure jibberish and further reinforces my opinion of you. By the way, what naive and misconceived posts have I 'ScottS' posted, with regard to big bore rifles? None I think.
Scott