hi
these two gentlemen have hunted in africa . what was their choice of guns and loads for african game animals?
regards
yes

Hemingway used a .256 Mannlicher, a .30-06 Springfield sporter and, I believe, but am not certain, a .470 double, of make unknown, at least to me. In any case, Hemingway did not like his double. He complained about the triggers.

Roosevelt used a .30-03 Springfield sporter, a .405 Winchester Model 1895 and a .500/.450 Holland & Holland sidelock double.

Loads for Hemingway included 220 grain solids in his .30-06. Teddy used the military 150 grain spitzer FMJs in his Springfield and the 300 grain softs, and some 300 grain solids, in his Winchester.

Kermit used a Model 1895 Winchester in what we now call .30-40 Krag, together with a .450 double rifle, a Rigby I believe. He also had a Model 1895 Winchester in .405.

Roosevelt's double was an H&H in 500/450. It was featured in the movie "In the Blood" that was produced in the early '90s. Set in Tanzania, his grandson and great grandson were part of the cast that did some hunting with Robin Hurt and company.

John S, you are correct of course and I knew that. I think I typed .500/.465 reflexively since it just fits so naturally before Holland & Holland.

I have edited my post to correct that error.

LOL! I don't know about the "of course" part but I have the movie and remembered the rifle. IIRC, the rifle was sold on auction some years ago, can't recall the details now but I remember seeing the wonderful pictures of it on the site. The new owners lent the rifle to the Roosevelt family for the making of this movie.

The rifle - The 500/450NE given to Roosevelt by some Brit supporters - is owned by the NRA's National Firearms Museum and is on display at there headquarters.

Several years ago at a special reception I had the opportunity to handle the rifle. It is beautiful and in pristine condition.

JPK

It seems Hemingway was really fond of his .30-06 with 220gr bullets and used it for all game up to and including rhino.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
Hemingway used a .256 Mannlicher, a .30-06 Springfield sporter and, I believe, but am not certain, a .470 double, of make unknown, at least to me. In any case, Hemingway did not like his double. He complained about the triggers.

Roosevelt used a .30-06 Springfield sporter, a .405 Winchester Model 1895 and a .500/.450 Holland & Holland sidelock double.

Loads for Hemingway included 220 grain solids in his .30-06. Teddy used the military 150 grain spitzer FMJs in his Springfield and the 300 grain softs, and some 300 grain solids, in his Winchester.

Kermit used a Model 1895 Winchester in what we now call .30-40 Krag, together with a .450 double rifle, a Rigby I believe. He also had a Model 1895 Winchester in .405.

mrlexma has it pretty well nailed. Minor quibble: TR's Springfield was actually in .30-03.

Also, Kermit's .30 caliber Model 1895 was also in .30-03 instead of .30-40. Many books say that Kermit's rifle was in .30-40. However, TR in his writings had a habit of calling Kermit's rifle a .30-40. But, R.L. Wilson in his book, Theodore Roosevelt Outdoorsman, has copies of the correspondence between Winchester and the White House when TR was preparing for the trip. Winchester stated in one of the letters that they could supply the Model 1895 in either .30-40, .30-03 or .30-06. TR specifically requested that Kermit's rifle be chambered for the same cartridge as his Springfield (for logistical reasons). (Winchester started chambering the Model 1895 in .30-03 in 1905 and in .30-06 in 1908.)

Also in Wilson's book, there are copies of the packing lists for the crates that Winchester prepared for shipping the supplies (ammo, rifles, etc.) that went on the safari. All .30 caliber ammo was for the .30-03 (and some .30-06 ammo was included too).

TR's Springfield:

"Antlers of moose shot September 19, 1915, with Springfield rifle No. 6000, Model 1903"
from A Book-Lover’s Holidays in the Open by Theodore Roosevelt NEW YORK: CHARLES SCRIBNER’S SONS, 1916
http://www.bartleby.com/57/

-Bob F.

Bob, yes you are also correct about TR's .30-03. Yet another slip up on my part, as I knew that, too! I have fixed that error in my original post as well.

TR was able to use the "sharp pointed" (as he put it) bullets in the standard .30-06 U.S. Army ammunition, however, since .30-06 ammunition will chamber and fire without any difficulty in a .30-03 chamber.

That is some very interesting information on Kermit's 1895, though. I haven't read Larry Wilson's book, so it was news to me.

Some time ago, the curator at the Sagamore Hill National Historic Site informed me by email that Kermit's 1895, which is kept there, was in .30-40 caliber. It seems as though she may be wrong.

Here is the best photograph I have been able to find of TR's Springfield:

Here's a photo of TR's .500/.450 Holland & Holland:



Note the Presidential Seal on the buttstock. Nice touch, eh?

mrlexma,

Even Wilson, in his book, at times refers to Kermit's rifle as ".30-40"!!! It's maddening! But, digging through the book it becomes obvious, when reading the letters that went back and forth between Winchester and the White House, that Kermit's rifle was in fact chambered for the .30-03. And, of course, that just makes sense from a logistics stand point.

We have to remember that, at the time, both the .30-03 and the .30-06 were brand new cartridges. And, TR had experience in the Spanish-American War where, of course, the .30-40 Krag was the cartridge used. With three different .30 caliber service cartridges (with the .30-03 and .30-06 being fairly new) it's easy to understand how TR could mistake them. Also, they were known as the .30 Army and the .30 Govt at the time. Not really a clear distinction with nomenclature.

Heck, in one of the letters from TR to Winchester, TR even confuses the .30-30 (.30 WCF) with the .30-40 (.30 Army) when discussing a Winchester Model 94 rifle that belonged to Kermit. TR asked Winchester if the Model 94 fired the service cartridge. Winchester wrote back telling him that no it didn't because it was chambered for the .30-30 cartridge. TR then decided not to take Kermit's Model 94 on the trip. He then started asking Winchester about a Model 1895 that could fire the same cartridge as his Springfield rifle. At that point, Winchester wrote back explaining the difference between the .30-40, the .30-03, and the .30-06 cartridges.

And we have to remember, that our modern names for these cartridges weren't really in use at the time.

Original name / Modern name
.30 WCF = .30-30 Winchester
.30 Army (or .30 U.S. Army) = .30-40 Krag
.30 Government, Model of 1903 = .30-03 Springfield
.30 Government, Model of 1906 = .30-06 Springfield

It's easy to see, with those original names, how it would be easy to confuse the various .30 caliber cartridges of the day.

It's really quite interesting reading the correspondence that went back and forth between Winchester and the White House as the trip was being planned. If you get a chance to pick up a copy of Wilson's book, I think you'd find it very interesting and enjoyable.

Cheers!....
-Bob F.

I recall hearing that TR's double went for over $500K at that auction several years back. Good to hear it is on display and I'll pay a visit next time I am in DC.

I heard that Springfield Armory NHS in Massachusetts now has TR's Springfield on display.

Atticus, your information is correct as to TR's Springfield. It is now on loan to the Springfield Armory NHS from the Sagamore Hill NHS.

I contacted the curators of both sites some time ago to discuss these rifles and they were very helpful.

Bob, thanks for the further information and I will definitely buy that book and read it with great interest I am sure.

I have often thought that it would be a lot of fun to read through TR's firearms related Presidential papers, most of which, I believe, should still be safeguarded in the national archives.

Trouble is, they are probably buried in there somewhere along with 9 million pages on the Russo-Japanese War!