quote:

I think people vastly underestimate how difficult and expensive it is to operate a business in Tanzania, or any third world country. These difficulties and expenses are amplified by the more complex and technical the business. A $15,000 charter is expensive, no doubt, but that is 2 round trip flights, then you need to consider cost of getting a plane in country, fuel, qualified people to fly and fix the plane, parts, the list goes on and on. There is nothing cheap about doing business or living in Tanzania. The cost of renting a place has gone down over the past few years here, but it is still easy to pay $3000+ a month for a rather unremarkable place to stay. The only thing cheap here is unskilled labor.

I Agree 100%

Unbelivable costs to operate there...

Sorry gentlemen. I don't buy it as it relates to air charters.

I have done some calculations. On similar planes, the cost in TZ is about twice as high as Zimbabwe on a per hour basis. Are the costs in Zimbabwe that much lower?

TZ has exorbitant government fees.

I do agree that often the areas are remote and far away. It is expensive to bring everything in.

I know the TZ operators are struggling. I can understand why. The offers I am getting are pretty surprising. The operators need to blame the government, pure and simple.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Sorry gentlemen. I don't buy it as it relates to air charters.

I have done some calculations. On similar planes, the cost in TZ is about twice as high as Zimbabwe on a per hour basis. Are the costs in Zimbabwe that much lower?

TZ has exorbitant government fees.

I do agree that often the areas are remote and far away. It is expensive to bring everything in.

I know the TZ operators are struggling. I can understand why. The offers I am getting are pretty surprising. The operators need to blame the government, pure and simple.

+1

Larry - would you consider a full 21 day license in Tanzania to really give you a shot at the big 4 or in all reality be a very expensive leopard and multiple buffalo/plains game hunt?

Its tough selling 15K buffalo hunts that require a $15K charter.

Mike

Pretty much sums it up that it is just for guys with lots of disposable income
Good luck Tanz, cannot feel sorry for this kinda situation
It is self induced

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Sorry gentlemen. I don't buy it as it relates to air charters.

I have done some calculations. On similar planes, the cost in TZ is about twice as high as Zimbabwe on a per hour basis. Are the costs in Zimbabwe that much lower?

TZ has exorbitant government fees.

I do agree that often the areas are remote and far away. It is expensive to bring everything in.

I know the TZ operators are struggling. I can understand why. The offers I am getting are pretty surprising. The operators need to blame the government, pure and simple.

+1

Larry - would you consider a full 21 day license in Tanzania to really give you a shot at the big 4 or in all reality be a very expensive leopard and multiple buffalo/plains game hunt?

Its tough selling 15K buffalo hunts that require a $15K charter.

Mike

I went on a hunt in TZ that was the single most expensive hunt I have ever been on. As I recall, I spent 6 figures all in. While the hunt was in theory for the big 4, I got buff and leopard. No lion (not even close). No elephant (not even close). I also shot a few heads of PG. As I recall kudu, bush pig, zebra and hartebeest.

I went to Zim, took a big lion, shot 3 buff and a leopard, took many plains game and passed on numerous elephants and saved about $40,000 over TZ ALL IN.

The operators can't do much about the insanely high government fees in TZ. I totally get that the daily rate accruing to the operators needs to be higher than Zim if for no other reason, logistics. But the air charters? Ridiculous.

Then to add the total disregard for the people spending this enormous amount of money in TZ just really pisses me off. I vividly remember being stressed to the max with a large deposit up for a lion hunt only to have the government stop hunting them. Same with he trophy fee debacle in 2007. Why do I need stress over my vacation?

At one time, I said I would never go back. I am softening a little in my old age. If I go, it will be a reduced fee hunt due to cancellation or something. The will have to figure a way around those insane charter fees.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:

I went to Zim, took a big lion, shot 3 buff and a leopard, took many plains game and passed on numerous elephants and saved about $40,000 over TZ ALL IN.

Exactly my point above! A guy could even go on several separate hunts in Zim or elsewhere and come out WAY cheaper than TZ. Even flying in and out from the US, and having airfare tacked on to the price it's still a better deal! Figure a $25,000 three buff hunt, a $30,000 elephant, a $25,000 Leopard, and a $50,000 Lion in the countries of your choice. Four coach class tickets at $2000 each brings the total cost to just under $140,000. Sure, that sounds like a lot but the kicker, of course, is a guy probably has a MUCH better chance of actually getting all his animals on four 14 day hunts....and he gets more "safari time" as a whole. Can you imagine what it would cost to do 56 days in TZ? Just the day rates and fees probably well exceeds the above $140K figure....then add in air charter and trophy fees! I don't care how "hard it is to operate there" or what kind of "history and character" the country has or how much of an "East Africa tone" the safari has...it's just not worth it compared to other destinations. As I said above, I just don't need a Gerenuk that much and further I would really much rather get my animals in Zim than probably not get them in a nice "East African" environment!

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Sorry gentlemen. I don't buy it as it relates to air charters.

I have done some calculations. On similar planes, the cost in TZ is about twice as high as Zimbabwe on a per hour basis. Are the costs in Zimbabwe that much lower?

TZ has exorbitant government fees.

I do agree that often the areas are remote and far away. It is expensive to bring everything in.

I know the TZ operators are struggling. I can understand why. The offers I am getting are pretty surprising. The operators need to blame the government, pure and simple.

+1

Larry - would you consider a full 21 day license in Tanzania to really give you a shot at the big 4 or in all reality be a very expensive leopard and multiple buffalo/plains game hunt?

Its tough selling 15K buffalo hunts that require a $15K charter.

Mike

Mike as I have said on another thread IF the quality of the hunting had held up in Tanzania that would be one thing but as most know it has not especially with regards to elephant. In 1982 you could go to the Selous and expect to take 2 elephants, 4 buffalo, lion and leopard. Even by the early to mid 2000's elephant were reasonably plentiful having recovered from the wave of poaching from say 1984 thru 1990. Forget it now.

quote:

Originally posted by Safari2:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Sorry gentlemen. I don't buy it as it relates to air charters.

I have done some calculations. On similar planes, the cost in TZ is about twice as high as Zimbabwe on a per hour basis. Are the costs in Zimbabwe that much lower?

TZ has exorbitant government fees.

I do agree that often the areas are remote and far away. It is expensive to bring everything in.

I know the TZ operators are struggling. I can understand why. The offers I am getting are pretty surprising. The operators need to blame the government, pure and simple.

+1

Larry - would you consider a full 21 day license in Tanzania to really give you a shot at the big 4 or in all reality be a very expensive leopard and multiple buffalo/plains game hunt?

Its tough selling 15K buffalo hunts that require a $15K charter.

Mike

Mike as I have said on another thread IF the quality of the hunting had held up in Tanzania that would be one thing but as most know it has not especially with regards to elephant. In 1982 you could go to the Selous and expect to take 2 elephants, 4 buffalo, lion and leopard. Even by the early to mid 2000's elephant were reasonably plentiful having recovered from the wave of poaching from say 1984 thru 1990. Forget it now.

So high prices for hunting that is way past its prime. I don't get the free lunch concept that the African government have towards hunting - charge the overseas hunter the maximum rent/tax and do little with the proceeds to help wildlife.

Or maybe their view is hunters having read too much Ruark Hemmingway or pick your modern celebrity hunter/writer/dvd producer will pay top dollar for the experience that in all reality is not here - no elephants, 1 in 5 shot at a lion. I don't know how long that can go on. How long the experience of a high end east African safari can be offset by the reality they are no elephants and a 1 in 5 shot at a lion.

Maybe we will see a fair bit of discounted hunts offset by charters that cost as much as the hunt !!

Mike

I have a good friend here who I won't name. Mike has met him at dinner one night.

He was introduced to me by guys in the gun shop I use. He had been elephant hunting 4 times and never got one. I asked him where he was going? I knew the answer. It was TZ. I laughed then showed him the pics of the 10 elephants I have killed in Zim since 2012. He is headed to Zim this year. I am betting his drought ends.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have a good friend here who I won't name. Mike has met him at dinner one night.

He was introduced to me by guys in the gun shop I use. He had been elephant hunting 4 times and never got one. I asked him where he was going? I knew the answer. It was TZ. I laughed then showed him the pics of the 10 elephants I have killed in Zim since 2012. He is headed to Zim this year. I am betting his drought ends.

He missed the window in TZ if he hunted after 1985. There was an ok window say between 2000 and 2007/8 in certain blocks.

Now the good lion hunting carried on thru about the mid 90's. After that the lions were pretty much shot out thus the need for the 6 year rule.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have a good friend here who I won't name. Mike has met him at dinner one night.

He was introduced to me by guys in the gun shop I use. He had been elephant hunting 4 times and never got one. I asked him where he was going? I knew the answer. It was TZ. I laughed then showed him the pics of the 10 elephants I have killed in Zim since 2012. He is headed to Zim this year. I am betting his drought ends.

Larry,

I have stopped taking solids on my trips to the Selous, as I know there no elephants there.

And if by any chance we do come across one we could legally shoot, I am sure our Walterhogs bullets will drop him, especially taking their small size.

I have been to Tanzania for many years, and have never seen a shoot able bull.

I have seen dozens and dozens of dead carcasses left by poachers though!!!

I have been hunting Tanzania a bit more than other areas as of late. To some extent, it was driven by wanting to hunt different species.

While I agree in principle that Tanzania's prices are a bit higher than they "should" be, to me the one thing that I really liked was the concept of the general bag license. I really like going there and being able to shoot whatever I see that I want to.

In Zimbabwe and Zambia on all of my hunts I was pulled off of nice specimens because "no quota" or "that is not something you are here to hunt". While I have had issues with Tanzania and elephants, it's been a lack of elephant or US rules, not the Tanz government getting in the way (except for price.)

Unfortunately, it looks more like all of the southern African countries are going to be exorbitant for wild hunting shortly.

Zimbabwe bumping up buff trophy fees to $5k, from what I was told with my booking in Zambia expect to see higher prices there, all lion hunts are brutally expensive (although I do think that has been driven by the USFW games and uncertainty- I know it made me be more aggressive about lion hunting, leopard seem stable right now, but undoubtedly will go way up once the economy turns around a bit, etc.

I have been essentially delaying my eventual retirement by buying the real nice hunts now, and accepting that I will not be able to do the level of hunting I do now when I get there.

What I am seeing on the hunts offered to me appears is more folks I had never heard of before offering hunts. To some extent, it looks like either start up operators who do not have the marketing yet and new agents trying to get in the business along with the occasional true late season bargain.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:


What I am seeing on the hunts offered to me appears is more folks I had never heard of before offering hunts. To some extent, it looks like either start up operators who do not have the marketing yet and new agents trying to get in the business along with the occasional true late season bargain.

I see it as times are tough and they need to beat new bushes for clients.

I would guess it is a combo of all of the above.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have a good friend here who I won't name. Mike has met him at dinner one night.

He was introduced to me by guys in the gun shop I use. He had been elephant hunting 4 times and never got one. I asked him where he was going? I knew the answer. It was TZ. I laughed then showed him the pics of the 10 elephants I have killed in Zim since 2012. He is headed to Zim this year. I am betting his drought ends.

Larry,

I have stopped taking solids on my trips to the Selous, as I know there no elephants there.

And if by any chance we do come across one we could legally shoot, I am sure our Walterhogs bullets will drop him, especially taking their small size.

I have been to Tanzania for many years, and have never seen a shoot able bull.

I have seen dozens and dozens of dead carcasses left by poachers though!!!

Saeed/Larry

Something seriously wrong when a government sells a full license with elephant on it. Outfitters sell hunts for them. Clients go on hunt for them that cost six figures and all the elephants have been poached away.

Somewhere along the way the idea that hunting and conservation are one and the same becomes a joke. The government has seriously failed in conservation and hunting is a borderline scam (there is nothing to hunt for). Saeed might know upfront he is mainly hunting buffalo and plains game and having a great time in the bush. But hunts are sold for big 4 full bag safari in TZ which for all purposes is a leopard/buffalo and plains game hunt.

Larry you have nailed the issue of charter flights. 15K charter flights work on $100K full bag hunts but not on $15K buff hunts.

Its south african game farms that will most help hunters. Keeps the governments in other countries honest cause you will be able to shoot stuff in south africa for much less and be driven to the game farm there from Tambo. Experience will be nowhere near elsewhere but prices will be much cheaper. Zim govt has gone to $5K for a buff - probably get an all in buff in SA for less than 10K. The floor on Uncle Bob jacking fees up is market demand and the availability of a substitute - farm raise buff in south africa.

Mike

quote:

Something seriously wrong when a government sells a full license with elephant on it. Outfitters sell hunts for them. Clients go on hunt for them that cost six figures and all the elephants have been poached away.

The government sells a full bag permit which you would unlikely find anywhere else; this permit does none other than authorize you if the occasion arises, to shoot whichever animal you have on licence and there are not many places in Africa where you can obtain 18-20 species hunting out of one camp.

Have you any idea just how many clients have hunted on a 21 day permit without wanting an Elephant or any of the cats for that matter?

Besides, I have never heard of an outfitter specifically offering an elephant hunt in TZ, then (30 years ago) or now (not surprising).