I went to U.S. Customs and Border Protection today to get updated forms 4457.
I only wanted the guns I am taking on this trip in the forum to simplify things in SA.
While there I asked about leaving the country with a semi-auto pistol or a semi-auto rifle.
The officer checking my stuff said no problem if the country you are going to allows them in. I expressed the concerns voiced here on AR. He "went to the back" to confer with other Customs Officers. Their opinion was that leaving, and returning wikth a Semi-auto rifle or pistol was not a problem, but to be sure and check that where you are going allowed them in.

I can only report what they told me.
I have a group of friends that teach overseas, and they have not had any problems with Customs bringing their Semi-Auto rifles and pistols back in.
Which is why I made the statement in the other post.
So "MY" theory is if you go to a customs office and they sign a form 4473 with your semi-auto rifle or pistol listed then you are good to go.

I think you mean Form 4457. Form 4473 is the BATFE form you sign when you buy a firearm.

As for exportation of semi-autos, or rifles over .50 caliber, I am sure that these things are done all the time by hunters. And I am not surprised that the customs officers you consulted think that exportation of semi-autos is fine as long as the destination country permits them to be imported.

But it is nonetheless illegal to export any rifle over .50 caliber or any semi-auto (including temporarily for hunting purposes) without an export license from the US State Department.

In my experience, law enforcement officers can sometimes have wildly erroneous ideas about firearms laws.

MR thanks,
I edited my post to reflect Forum 4457.
I seem to recall somewere I read of an exemption for "sporting rifles" above 50 cal. I will try to find it.
The deal is the Gov'ment does not want 50 BMG rifles exported to just ANY country.
By the way night vision is a touchy subject as well.

MR,

Can you sight any U.S. government official who says that you can't travel with a semi-auto hunting rifle from the U.S. to another country?

I've traveled with my father to Canada before (recently) with his BAR; no problems.

By the way, I have called BATF about this question. They say that a hunter traveling with firearms is not exporting/importing. Customs agrees.

I have seen several people on this forum claim this, and can't find a single instance in a Google search of a hunter getting into trouble over this in U.S.

By the way, if you call BATF and ask them "Can I export my BAR to Canada?", they will tell you no. But ask them "Can I travel to Canada with my BAR?", they will say "Sure".

Garrett

mrlexma,

We go through this about once a year. The issue comes up, I show the relevant provisions of ITAR and still no one agrees.

Just because Customs is not enforcing the law, doesn't mean it is not a violation of the law.

Regards,

Terry

Terry,

I think what it means is that you are misreading the law.

The law pertains to export/import, not travel.
Those terms have fiducial and legal meaning, that are well defined in courts.

In my experience with government agencies, which is considerable, the one thing I have found that they love (with a capital "L"), is enforcing regulations and law.

Garrett

If "traveling" is not subject to the law then why is there a specific limited exemption? See Section 123.17(c) of ITAR.

Regards,

Terry

Terry,

Section 123.17(c) specifically allows people to travel with firearms for their own use, provided they are "nonautomatic" (and 1,000 rounds of ammo).

Automatic in this case means full auto or select fire.

Semi-auto is allowed.

Garrett

The law says "District Directors of Customs shall permit U.S. persons to export temporarily from the United States without a license not more than three nonautomatic firearms in Category I(a) of Sec. 121.1..."

So "traveling" (your word) is "exporting" for the purposes of ITAR. The specific word export is used in the regulation and "without a license" refers to an export license.

We are now down to the definition of "nonautomatic".

If "nonautomatic" means (as you define it) anything other than full auto or select fire, then why in Section 121.1 is the term "semi-automatic" used as a distinct and separate word from that of "nonautomatic"?

In simple language here is what it says:

You can take 3 nonautomatic firearms (in Category I(a) of Section 121.1) out of the country for your own personal use.

So we now have to look to Category I(a) to determine what they mean by "nonautomatic".

CATEGORY I—FIREARMS, CLOSE ASSAULT
WEAPONS AND COMBAT SHOTGUNS
*(a) Nonautomatic and semi-automatic
firearms to caliber .50 inclusive (12.7 mm).

Here they use both terms "nonautomatic" and "semi-automatic", but the law says that you can temporarily export not more than 3 "nonautomatic firearms in Category I(a)".

If they wanted to permit the export of semi-automatic firearms, then they would have said "not more than three nonautomatic or semi-automatic firearms in Category I(a) of Sec. 121.1..." or they would have said "not more than three firearms of the type listed in Category I(a) of Sec. 121.1..."

Where they screwed up is not giving us a specific definition of the term "nonautomatic". They should have said something like "nonautomatic means any bolt action, lever action, pump action or single shot firearm."

Regards,

Terry

Before we miss the forest for the trees. Let me give a rudimentary outline of the law.

The Arms Export Control Act says that you can NOT export, without a license, any of the items listed in Section 121 of the International Trade in Arms Regulations (ITAR).

Here is a list (for our purposes) of the items listed in Section 121 which can NOT be exported without a license.

PART 121—THE UNITED STATES
MUNITIONS LIST


CATEGORY I—FIREARMS, CLOSE ASSAULT
WEAPONS AND COMBAT SHOTGUNS
*(a) Nonautomatic and semi-automatic
firearms to caliber .50 inclusive (12.7 mm).
*(b) Fully automatic firearms to .50 caliber
inclusive (12.7 mm).
*(c) Firearms or other weapons (e.g. insurgency-
counterinsurgency, close assault
weapons systems) having a special military
application regardless of caliber.
*(d) Combat shotguns. This includes any
shotgun with a barrel length less than 18
inches.


So now we know that, without a license, we can NOT export:

nonautomatic firearms
semi-automatic firearms
fully automatic firearms
assault/military firearms
combat shotguns

However, there is a limited exception in ITAR (Section 123.17(c)) which says we can temporarily export not more than 3 nonautomatic firearms for our personal use.

If my mother tells me that I can not take any of my red, blue, green, yellow or black marbles over to Jimmy's house, but dad tells me it is OK to take up to 3 of the red marbles as long as I bring them back. Then it would be logical to conclude that I am not allowed to take any of my blue, green, yellow or black marbles over to Jimmy's house.

Regards,

Terry

Terry is correct.

I have recently been, and am still, involved in securing an export license for a double rifle, and have had to become an expert on these regulations (with some initial assistance from Terry).

For the benefit of those who are new to this issue and have not read these very dense and some might argue overbroad regulations, I will provide a very quick supplemental summary.

Licenses from the State Department Directorate of Defense Trade Controls are needed to export what the International Traffic in Arms Regulations ("ITAR") define as "defense articles."

Defense articles are defined in the ITAR to include firearms of many kinds. Category I(a) of §121.1 of the ITAR specifically includes: "Nonautomatic and semi-automatic firearms to caliber .50 inclusive (12.7mm)."

As Terry has done, the reader needs to pay specific attention to the distinction between "nonautomatic" and "semi-automatic." The former category might be thought to subsume the latter, but that would be an unwise and unwarranted assumption. The law cannot be assumed to make distinctions without intending differences.

Section 123.17(c) of the ITAR sets forth one of only a few exemptions from the licensing requirement. Such exemption provides as follows: "[The relevant authority] shall permit U.S. persons to export temporarily from the United States without a license not more than three nonautomatic firearms in Category I(a) of §121.1 of this subchapter and not more than 1,000 cartridges therefor . . . ."

Note that the exemption does not cover nonautomatic and semi-automatic firearms in Category I(a), but only "nonautomatic firearms in Category I(a) . . . ."

Thus, the transportation outside of the United States of any semi-automatic firearm, as well as any firearm in excess of .50 caliber (or, if you like, 12.7mm), requires an export license, even if such firearm is only taken abroad temporarily by a hunter.

It is another question entirely whether this law is enforced. That is generally a matter of what the policy of the enforcing agency is, how well-informed the agency's enforcing officers are and how many of them there may be available to do the enforcing.

MR,

Looks like we had the same idea at pretty much the same time, I must a quicker typist than you.

To reinforce your last sentence, who knows to what extent these provisions are enforced at the field level? How many of the Customs people at the Atlanta airport have even a basic working knowledge of ITAR? I'll bet if you return to the US with an AR-15 or Uzi in your guncase, then you will probably have some problems. But showing up with a 1911, glock, semi-auto hunting rifle, probably no problems at all (keep your fingers crossed and hope you don't get the one Customs official who actually knows and understands the law).

Regards,

Terry

Terry,

You need to read the entire 120 through 126 section.

Section 123.17 specifically describes what is excempted from regulation by ITAR.
And that includes traveling (out of the US) with up to 3 weapons (not fully automatic) and 1,000 rounds of non-defense ammo.
It even mentions the possibilty of what happens if you lost a weapon (by describing the intent of the person to return with it).

Garrett

I give up.

And yes, Terry, you have to be quicker than I am!

MR,

The subsection (d) of 123.17 that you refer to specifically mentions "foreign persons", not US citizens.

If your point is that non-US citizens can't take semi-auto weapons out for travel, I agree with you.

Terry, MR, do either of you have a theory why no government agency stops US citizens from traveling with semi-auto weapons?
I don't buy the theory that they are ignorant of the law.

Garrett

I did not refer to §123.17(d) of the ITAR.

I referred to §123.17(c). They are completely different exemptions.

Meaning absolutely no disrespect, but these regulations are written by lawyers for lawyers--and like any regulations must be read extremely carefully. Their complexity rivals that of the IRS regulations, although the ITAR is not as lengthy.

As for why these licensing requirements are not enforced, see my (and Terry's) comments above.

I will add that, I do sincerely hope the status quo continues, since, IMHO, scrutiny and licensing of a hunter who wants to bring his BAR or .577 NE double overseas should not rank high in the priorities of our law enforcement apparatus.

Now, I really do quit.

Question:
What countries can a US citizen take a semi-auto rifle or pistol to?

Terry,

You need to read the entire 120 through 126 section.

I have read them, why don't you give me a cite to a specific section that is applicable to our current discussion?

I have no real idea why they don't enforce the letter of the law. Maybe they don't know all of the intricacies of the law, maybe as long as it looks like a sporting firearm and not an assault weapon their boss has told them not to bother with it, even if it is a semi-auto.

Regards,

Terry

P.S.
This law is poorly drafted, they should have set out both nonautomatic and semi-automatic in separate subsections (like they did with the full auto, assault/military and combat shotguns), or as I said before, define the term nonautomatic.

Can you get a form 4457 at a port of entry office, or do you have to go to one of the field offices?

Mad Dog

Msd Dog,

You can get the form at any Customs office.

Garrett

Section 121.1 of ITAR defines what a firearm is.
Nonautomatic firearms include bolt actions, single shot, pump action, double rifles, and semi-autos.

In 123.17(c) it clearly states you can take no more than 3 nonautomatic weapons out of the US without a license.
It makes reference to Category I (a) of section 121.1, which defines the firearms ITAR covers.
The exemption provided clearly means anything other than fully automatic, and less the 50 Caliber.

Garrett

What about all the hunters who take their Beretta 391 semi-auto shotguns to Argentina to hunt? Are they breaking the law?

This thread really makes me wonder about traveling outsided the US with my flintlocks. Anything that I wouyld travel with would greatly exceed the .50 caliber limit.

Even worse, they wouldn't even fall into the non-automatic exemption! Drat.

That said, I did have a 15 minute discussion with the TSA folks in Atlanta when I returned from my plains game hunt in RSA. They really enjoyed looking at the .58 flinter and discussing the gun, it's effectivenss etc. Not once did anyone question whether or not it was legal to import.

It was on the approriate form, but the customs officer that filled out the form didn't even think I needed to have the flintlock on it. I had to convince him that it wouldn't hurt to have it listed.

Sporting shotguns (including semi-autos) with barrels greater than 18" are exempt from the law. Combat shotguns, regardless of barrel length, may not be exported without a license.

Black powder firearms are specifically exempt from the law. Take as many black powder firearms of whatever caliber as you please.

BB guns and pellet guns are also exempt

Regards,

Terry

P.S.
There is a law which covers the export of sporting shotguns, but I am not familiar with it nor its exemptions. The Commerce Department administers the Export Administration Act.

What is all this discussion about? IPSC shooters routinely take their favorite race guns and IDPA guns overseas to matches, without a problem. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. I know several shooters (and referees) who have taken their guns overseas and brought them back successfully! In the case of firearms, just make sure that the serial numbers all match up.
Peter.

Peter read this Another Post on this Subject

Regards,

Terry