Could this rifle and caliber be the best of all.

The caliber has a tremendous endorsement given that Saeed uses the 375/404 on everything. In fact I think he has pair of them.

The rifle may not be CRF but it has vertical stack in line feeding magazine so would be far more jam proof than the staggered feed M70s.

What do you think.

http://www.remington.com/2001/fi_700abg.htm

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 05-20-2001).]

Mike,

I think the 375RUM is a good cartridge. If it comes out in an M70 I would prefer it over the 375 H&H. I somehow doubt USRAC will be jumping all over themselves to endorse another Rem cartridge. What'd it take - 20 years for them to chamber the 416 Rem mag?

I was toying with the idea of trying a 416/375RUM if I ever wear out my 416RemMag, but I'm not sure the reamer will clean up the chamber at the neck. Studying the Clymer prints leaves the issue in question.

Clymer Reamers

Don

[This message has been edited by Don G (edited 05-20-2001).]

Don,

Why not have the barrel set back a little bit.

I wonder if a 416 Rem Ultra is coming.

Mike

[This message has been edited by Mike375 (edited 05-20-2001).]

Mike,

A Remington 416 Ultra is coming, but we have no idea when.

We already have a reamer for it, as Remington has issued the specs.

------------------
saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Saeed,

It was a logical one.

It looks like Remington is tying to overcome the rifles repuation with a bundle a good big calibers.

I think the success of both the 375 and 416 Uktras will depend a lot on whether Winchester (or CZ) chambers them in their issue stainless rifle. 300 Ultra is there.

Mike

Saeed,

Could you email me the specs on the 416 Rem Ultra? I was trying to extrapolate from the 375 Ultra that Clymer has published.

I noticed they shortened the case length on the 338, what is the case length for the 375 and 416?

Thanks,
Don

Mike,

You could install a Sako extractor on this rifle for $100.

It would be pretty darn close to perfect.

Id still rather have a full dia rim and will probably stick with my 404 case but it looks nice.

Glad to see its 9 1/2 pounds.

the box magazine makes changing from FMJ to softs easy, or a hard SP to a soft SP.

Andy

Don,

I am bettting the case will be full length because the 416 bullets will already be set for teh 416 Remington, such as the Hornady.

Mike

I saw one of Remintons new DGR in .375UM at a gun show recently. The fellow said it was one of the first available and he got it at a factory meeting for distributors. No ammo was available at the time. The rifle looks great if you like laminated stocks but the stock is so straight that I could not access the open sights. They may have corrected this on subsequent rifles so I would recommend getting one in hand before committing to buy it. He told me it was a pretty good thumper in the recoil department and had only fired it with a scope.
Ralph

I have a factory Winchester chambered in .300 RUM, so that would easily be the basis of a 375 or 416 RUM. If one is talking of a safari, the cost of rebarreling is a minor consideration. Any express length Winchester action should work. Likewise wih the CZ.

Rust,

Was that a Classic action? Safari Express or what?

Don

I wouldn't be surprised to see this cartridge in a Winchester Classic soon, since the 300 UM is already available. The magazine work has already been done in that case, so all they have to do is rebarrel now. I'm betting it will be a favorite of African hunters, if available in a CRF rifle like a Model 70.
Anybody know how it stacks up against a .375 AI? I'm trying to decide now if I want to proceed with my Ackley project or wait until the 375 UM is available. Obviously, I'm not in any hurry. - Sheister

I found the 300RUM in the 2001 Winchester catalog in a M70 classic stainless/composite.

Don

Sheister-
You might check Saeed's loading data for his 374/404 as it is virtually the exact same thing as the RUM. I have owned a 375Wby which is like the AI and it was a great performing cartridge, 2750fps with 300grs was no problem. One advantage the AI or Wby will have over the RUM is extra magazine capacity, something I find extremely comforting at times!

JOhn,

I guess Saeed's 375/404 was the reason I thought this cartridge would be a real hit. Heck, if just half of us who have seen his videos went out and bought one, Winchester would probably recover their tooling costs! LOL- Sheister

I don't remeber where I saw it, but it looks like Remington is already selling 375RUM brass. I saw it listed at one of the mail order houses on the web.

Don G and Rust,
I couldn't resist the Win. M-70 Stainless Classic in .300 RUM either. I have one like Rust's. Amazingly, it sat on a shelf in Tennessee long enough to get marked down to the point where I had to have it. The plan is to convert it to .375 RUM, and index the .300 RUM barrel as a non-quick-change switch barrel. Someone told me they only made 500 of them, veracity unverified. Let's see... how about a fluted Krieger stainless barrel, one in 12" twist of course... contour...sporter...#4... no #5!

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
Bwanawannabe, Daktari Ron

Let's see... how about a fluted Krieger stainless barrel, one in 12" twist of course... contour...sporter...#4... no #5!

Mr. Berry,
I hate to rain on your project, however, Krieger will not make a STAINLESS barrel in .375 caliber in a #5 contour. They will do it in carbon steel. I called a couple of monthes back to order a .30 caliber stainless barrel in a #3 contour. No go. They claim that stainless steel failures in extremely low temperatures have recently changed their policy. I specifically asked them about a #5 .375 caliber because that's as big as the McMillan Winchester Super Grade will accept. Best, Matt.

[This message has been edited by Matt in Virginia (edited 05-26-2001).]

Remington African Rifle??? now there is an oxymoron!! (grin)

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Dr. Berry,

Kreiger offered to make me a stainless .458 x 404 but only in a very large diameter, which was OK with me as my barreld action was calculated to weigh 7.5 pounds without stock (CZ550).

the barrel was full diameter for 3 inches then began a very modest taper. It still fit a McMillan 602 BRNO express stock.

Price was $255 plus $20 for .460 groove (Im a velocity freak), $25 for 1-10 twist, $15 for stainless, plus shipping.

this was last winter. they seemed to approve the stainless or carbon steel on a case by case bassis.

Andy

Don G and R. A.- it is a stainless classic, as if I would buy a Winchester without a claw extractor. I picked it up on a business trip last year. In discussing it with the proprietor of the shop, he stated that it was a special production run made up for a very large distributor.

I expect that Winchester may very well put the Ultra Mags chamberings into production as there is no equivalent cartridge and in .375 or .416 they could be quite popular. More so than either one in a Remington among the more experienced crowd.

Ray,
Remington DGR/African Rifle = Oxymoron
Absolutely!

Matt and Andy,
Dan Lilja then if not Krieger.

Rust,
Sounds like that run of only 500 production might be true. Otherwise its custom shop only for thousands of $ more. I new a good buy when I saw it as did you. I'll bet our serial numbers are within 500 numerically.

------------------
Good huntin' and shootin',
RAB

It looks like the .375 rum will be pretty much in the area of the .375 AI and Weatherby.
It cost me $150.00 plus shipping to have my ZKK-602 rechambered to the .375 Weatherby. I added a good recoil pad and that is all. A great deal less than a new rifle and a great deal more cool factor.

Advertisements in Australian gun magazines by Winchester show the 300 Ultra in the stainless model. It is actually mentioned separately. It is also shown on their website.

I think the adds would be reproductions of American adds.

Mike

The 375 RUM is nothing more than the old 375 Weatherby sans the belt. It's been tried before and it didn't work. The 378 Weatherby was a super charged version and that too does not have a strong folowing. Same for the 416 RUM. The 416 weatherby is trying hard to edge into the 416 Rigby's domain and besides you can load a Rigby to near-identical Weatherby velocities. The 416 Rem has had some success due to a shorter action. I believe all of the RUMs require magnum actions. The RUMs are nothing more than an attempt by Remington to capture more sales. Realistically, they offer no real advantage to extant calibers. And on a Remington rifle it will have little appeal as a DGR.

The 375 RUM is nothing more than a PR move by Remington to capture the 375 H&H's niche as "the" caliber for all around hunting. It's been tried before, with the 375 and 378 Weatherbys with little effect on the H&H's popularity. Same for the other two ( or three, it seems everytime one turns around there is a new RUM caliber). One can load the 416 Rigby to 416 Weatheby velocities anyhow. And a 700 action with a brazed on bolt handle and push-feed, no thanks.

Well, the RUM is not a copy of a .375 H&H. It is a commericalization of the .375/404 wildcat. It has some 20-30 grains more powder capacity than the H&H. The .404 Jeffreys lacked a belt from the very first as it was a better design without the extreme taper of the H&H which requires a belt for headspacing. The combination of belt and heavy taper have occasionally caused feeding difficulties in some rifles. I guess you could say the belt was required to make an otherwise poor case design work at all. The original Jeffreys design, in .404 form is about as old as the H&H and had always been superior. It just didn't have the initial broad manufacturing and marketing base.

As far as taking market share, this is a commercial marketplace after all. If all the H&H has going for it is a sense of nostalgia, that alone would assure some market share.

So to recap, RUM = more powder capacity, straighter case walls, no belt, better feeding from the magazine, suitable for any long magnum rifle, and easy to reload for (I have Redding dies for .300 and .338 RUM, soon to have them for .416, I believe I will skip the .375).

So I give up, why is the .375 H&H better again?

Oops. Forgot to mention that one of my RUMs is a Winchester, so in that case the Remington handle isn't an issue. Why does everyone assume that one will purchase a Remington rifle to shoot a Remington cartridge? I haven't noticed a lot of new H&H brand rifles floating about in shops in recent years, people buy other makes of rifles for the H&H cartridge.

[This message has been edited by Rust (edited 05-27-2001).]

Rust,

Firstly, I think in many ways the 375 H&H is seen as a Winchester caliber. Also, Remington is not seen as a rifle for bigger calibers. Have you ever noticed all the 416 Remingtons on these boards seem to be Model 70s and not Rem 700s. Also, H&H rifles are so far above the average person they are not even part of the equation.

I can't agree with you on feeding and the 375 H&H. Apart from the taper being an advantge its other advantage is it has a shoulder diameter about the same as a 7 X 57 or 30/06. If you look closely a 375 is like a big 303.

The belt also allows loose chambering around the shoulder area which of course means a 375 H&H can be chambered under conditions in which a 375 Ultra could not.

However, I think the biggest issue will be recoil. For the majority of shooters recoil around the 338 or 375 level is about the end of the road for a general purpose rifle. Thus if you were correct on case design then a rimless version of a 338 or 300 Win necked up would be the answer.

I also think that a 375 caliber is seen as a big 30/06 and a caliber that you would take anywhere. Almost a survival type caliber. This of course brings into the equation ammo and component availability.

Because the 375 is what it is, it also allows the shooter to think about customising his rifle as it is the prime choice for that. He may never do it but if he does he has the ideal caliber.

The 375 also "reads up" well in every gun article in every magazine world wide. Thusa shooter can always be happy with his choice.

Everyone knows what a 375 is. It is simply "the 375". This is good especially for an expensive rifle as the owner does not have to explain what he actually owns.

Thus, the 375 has a whole lot of little things going for it and these little things add up to a big total.

All of which results in its total domination of the big bores.

Mike

Mike makes some very valid and real points about the 375. However, it really doesn't dominate the big bores, IMO. They never have been and never will be a common rifle for the average gun owner. Boards like this give the impression that everyone owns at least one, while the truth is about 1 in 100 might own something larger than a 375 and another 1 in 100 might own a 375! And, the 375 is not a big bore, it's a medium bore.
Lack of suitable game is one reason, another is that most hunters are not gun cranks! If they were, the 30/06 and 30/30 wouldn't lead sales in guns and ammo year in and year out. It also kicks way too much for the average once a year hunter. Another point is that while a large number of hunters do go to Africa, very few actually hunt dangerous game. Too expensive. And compared to the number of hunters going after whitetailed deer, forget it. More deer hunters in 1 year than what goes to Africa in 25yrs.

John,

I agree with you that big bores are rarely sold.

But I think in the over 338 Winchester area that the 375 would make the vast majority of rifle sales. While not a big bore the perception is that it is a big bore and the marketing of rifles has it as a big bore.

In many ways the 375 is similar to the 270.

I consider full size calibers to start with 270. That is, those that can and do shoot military weight bullets.

The 270 is at the bottom end of this group, say 270 to 300 Mag and the 375 is at the bottom of the big bores.

Of the 2 groups of calibers I would bet that among discerning gun owners and custom rifles that the 270 and 375 would take a big slice of their respective markets.

And recoil, practicality and being seen to be the right caliber is a big part of the equation.

Mike

Mike-
Military weight bullets can be and are shot out of 223s! I consider anything under a 30cal as a small bore and anything 40cal and over a big bore.
I would agree that perception has the 375 wearing bigger pants than what it really needs. Compared to a 30/06 it IS a big bore! And, far too many attempt to make it into something it is not and never was intended to be. It's a compromise, a damned nice one, but still neither fish nor fowl and therefor of no real interest to me for use on a safari. Doesn't shoot as easily as a smaller bore for the plains game, doesn't have the bullet weight or knockdown of the larger bores for big game. I'm not interested in a one rifle safari so whatever utility it may have in that light is wasted on me.

John,

I was also thinking of miltary size as a caliber that is seen as being able to manage anything with the right bullets if you have to and that is 270 to 30.

The 375 is a compromise and that is what it is about.

As to the 300 Mag and say 416 as compared to a pair of 375s, I think the results would depend a lot on the shooter.

In my own case my history has always been that I have a higher "hit rate" when I use one caliber.

A good mate of mine is similar to yourself and is more inclined to use different calibers.

The conclusion I reached many years ago is that you shoot best with what is right for you. Shooting what is not right for you seems to build a stress factor up and this results in poorer shooting.

It is like accuracy. For most shooters if you took away the accuracy from their rifles and did not tell them they would continue doing well. But once they found out the accuracy was no longer ragged hole groups their shooting would go off.

Mike

Mike,

Military calibers are not what they used to be!

Since 1974, the military assualt rifle of both the East and West has been a "reduced caliber" cartrdige. The 5.56 x 45 (.223) and Russian 5.45 x 39 (.221). Bullet weights are 61 gr and 52 gr respectively.

As the first civilian to ever test the 5.45 x 39 (at Aberdeen proving grounds with 9th infantry div military intelligence)I determiend that neither the 5.45 or 5.56 would perforate common building materials used in urban combat.

Medium machineguns (7.62 x 51 and 7.62 x 54mm rimmed)are used for that, as are 0.50, 14.5mm, 30mm and 40mm grenade launchers and specialized 84-122mm rocket launchers, and infantry fighting vehicles with medium calibe automatic cannon (20mm, 23mm, 25mm and 30mm).

I know what you mean. Traditional military calibers (.308, 7.65, .303), with bullet weight 147-174 gr.

the .270 and .375 combo is a great one. Like John said, I do consider the 375 a medium bore.

Im still struggling with what a large bore should be. In 20 years I guess Ill know as much about the 458 x 404 as I do about the 375.

Im looking at a trip to New Zealand and Australia this winter. Sounds like I wont be laughed out of camp with my 375 improved. Any need to bring the 458 x 404?

Andy

Andy,

If you have 450/404 and a 270 with you and we just go spotlight shooting for roos, I guarantee you will take the big one, but you would need the 270 as well because of the volume of shooting.

I have yet to see anyone use more than a 375 when there is a lot of shooting done.

By the way, do you have some 400 Grain Speers handy for the 45 and some 220 Hornadies for the 375 Imp.

Like you, I am not sure where big bore starts.

338 seems to be the end of the small bores both as to bullets available and how the rifles are marketed.

Ever notice when some one posts about loads in a338 for deer shooting, that they get their answers. Same post for a 375 and out come all the "cannon" and "elephant rifle" replies.

I am inclined to think big bore starts at 40 as that is where (with some exceptions perhaps) the rifle becomes more specialised and limited by its recoil.

I know that George Hoffman says many times that he can and does use the 416 for evertything. But I think high volume shooting like in Australia would stop him.

375 seems to be in its own niche.

Kind of like a 270 again.

Mike