What was the most common metric Nitro express cartridges used in sub-Saharan Africa during the 1900's?

Thank you,

Jim

Define "Metric nitro " ?
Not trying to be difficult but terminology metric nitro mutually exclusive and at the same time inclusive of everything that followed BP

I stand corrected. Just metric calibers.

jim

I would think the 9.3 x 62 beats them all at the end of the day, maybe followed by the 7 x 57, then 6.5 MS. Just guessing... maybe the 8 x 57 too??

ALF will be better informed than I though..

The .500 Jeffery was originally a German metric cartridge.
Cal

I would say 8x57 would beat them all.

I would assume the next most popular would be 7x57, then, good amounts of 9.3x62, 6.5x57, 8x60.

10.75x68 seemed to be somewhat popular. Not sure how how the 6.5x55 would rank. As a young gun nut in SA I saw maybe one of two, seems more popular now. Don't leave of 6.5x54 MS and 6.5x58 Portuguese.

7x64 has a decent following in SA and Namibia.

Of course don't forget 7.62x39 and 7.62x54R...

Thank you for your input. Kayaker, mentioning Portugal got me thinking that each colonial power had there own preferential calibers. The Dutch, Germans, French, and Portugese. Other than the English did I miss any colonial powers?

1900's ? When in the 1900's ?

So if its is 1900 then the question is difficult because we have the Boer war in Full swing, we have "commercial hunters" and we have "sport hunters" ! Big big difference between the two and then we must not forget many of our favourite Big game cartridges were not even developed..... then off course the little upheaval called WWI which basically brought an end to Colonial Germany and much of British hunting for the duration of the war.

but I digress

The honour goes to........ wait for it !

The itty bitty 6.5mm ! Yes this was by far the most used caliber in Africa by far until the 30-06 made its appearance ! The original 6,5s were anglicized rimmed 6.5s The Dutch / Romanian version and the later the little 6.5x54MS

But then who was Africa's biggest ( by numbers shot ) big game hunter ?

A dude by name of Jan Harm Robbertse and they used BP percussion cap muzzle loaders even though the 450-577 was already an item and even the 7mm mauser and 303 ! Selous learnt his skill and trade from a guy by name of Viljoen who was in his own right a elephant slayer of note.

Von Moltke in circa 1943 wrote two books in Afrikaans about the big number elephant hunters of that time. They were largely unknown to the world other than for the writings of Selous and off course the archival data on tusk numbers shipped from ports like Lourenco Marques in Mozambique!

My friend the late prof Felix Lategan who in his lifetime amassed the biggest collection of early Southern African rifles and guns now housed in various museum collections expands on the pre and post 1900 Boer hunters in his book.

Good appraisal, and we can add the German 9.3x74R, which was popular as a rifle calibre solely and also in the German combination guns - their answer to the .45-577.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
I would think the 9.3 x 62 beats them all at the end of the day, maybe followed by the 7 x 57, then 6.5 MS. Just guessing... maybe the 8 x 57 too??

ALF will be better informed than I though..

There are two important entities at play.... both finite, the one time ( timeline) and the other is numbers, numbers of guns built, numbers of people in a place at a point in time.

For guns there is a number one and a number last one built. This applies in particular to the guns of that era. Each and every maker past and present will have a number one and a number last.

Mauser sporting rifles... some 127,000 only between 1898 and 1946 ... a number one and a number last ! Some makers and some calibers even less ! For calibers there were finite dates of manufacture.... for many metrics the two great wars assured a short lifespan.

Then there is perception , urban legend, belief, intuition making us believe that this or that caliber was numerous; question is this false or is it true ?

My frame of reference is based on a perception borne from experience of numbers and time well after WW2 and one tends to extrapolate back in time thinking it was as it is now back then.

The 505 Gibbs for instance...... one source of ammo only a finite number of original Gibbs rifles and antiquated cordite loads with large cap primers long gone. There are today more 505's built and on offer than there ever was, more ammo options. When proponents of the 505 like Doctari writes about his 505 and his first hunt with it is is already 1993 /94, just the other day ! his 505 a modern rendition of something that was not very numerous at the height of its invention at all.

My point is everyone did not shoot a 9,3x62 or a 7x57 or 10,75 ! Just about everyone did shoot a 30-06 however ! The numbers do not lie !

As to the 9.3x62 PMP only started offering 9.3x62 ammo around 1985 ! Before that finding 9,3 ammo was a problem !

The legend of the Boer war the 7x57 and the rifle that shot it ! Now there is an example of misplaced belief borne from propaganda. Bester in his excellent book on the small arms of the Boer war gives a truthful account of the real rather poor state of riflemanship prior to outbreak of hostilities. Further study into how rifles were deployed in warfare at the time shows that rifle fire was used like short range direct fire artillery with engagements between 900 and 2000 meters, massed infantry against massed infantry at ranges where neither force actually actually saw each other.

As for the 500 Schuler/Geoffries, there are supposed to be like 10-20 Geoffries rifles built, and maybe a couple hundred 12.7 Schulers.

So the 500 Schuler/Geoffries would have been more popular.

RWS kept the 404 Geoffries alive as the 10.75x73 (or some similar designation).


There was also the 10.75x68, which is a great cartridge that RWS loads with shit lightweight bullets. It isn't totally dissimilar from the 405 WCF in power. But it should kick ass, I think the bullets are something like 270 grains (from memory).


There is also a 43 Mauser, whos metric designation I can't remember. It was moderately popular.

For give the spelling, I am need of an eye exam.

More game has been killed by the 8X57 than any other metric cartridge simply because there were literally thousands of German Mauser rifles around with cheap ammo.

The 404 Jeffery was a metric 10.75X72.

Whoa there boys, you cannot have hunted with a caliber at a time before the caliber was invented !

You cannot have hunted in a place in time when you were not there at the time.

You cannot have had had thousands of animals shot with calibers and guns of which only a few examples existed.

I some instances thousands upon thousands of military rifles became available (8x57 as example ) their availability in far flung places rare ! Surplus ammo not even an option !
Surplus German Mausers were almost unknown until the 60s and 70s and mostly as imported surplus actions.


And if you combine the above and more you come to realize that what you think occurred never happened...... not pre WW 1 at least.

If you look at Speed's list of who hunted with what and when a clear picture emerges with what can be seen as golden periods in time !

The real boom and interest in the popular metrics came after WW2 when Mauser no longer produced rifles and other makers took over. Brno and FN !
Unfortunately the interest in metrics was tempered by the erosion of ammo availability.

Alf, where can one find Speed's list of what everyone hunted? I tried to google the phrase but no success.

thank you,

Jim

Chapter 26 page 339 Speeds Mauser Sporting rifles.

The expose that got me thinking was a in depth look at Bell's use of certain calibers against time line.

As example:

The problem we have is that when Bell is mentioned the next word is 7x57 and following that pops up is 1000 odd elephant..... The implied statement makes the reader believe that Bell Shot 1000 odd elephant with the 7x57 ! This has been propagated over and over publication by publication !

Truth is he used the 7x57, truth is we can account for 1000 and some elephant.... the myth is he used the 7x57 for all 1000 elephant !

I’d bet it was the 7x57 by far.

The Boer War alone must have involved the use of thousands of Mausers in that caliber. And those rifles stuck around and were used for a long time afterwards.

7x57 Boer war Mausers, Nope ! The majority of these were lost in the war. First when the Boers ran out of ammo and started using captured 303's and then at surrender they had to hand in their weapons which were destroyed.

as per the Treaty of Vereeniging

Peace Treaty of Vereeniging: 31 May 1902
Article 1:
The BURGHER Forces in the Field will forthwith lay down their Arms, handing over all Guns, Rifles, and Munitions of War, in their possession or under their control, and desist from any further resistance to the Authority of HIS MAJESTY KING EDWARD VII, whom they recognise as their lawful SOVEREIGN.
The Manner and details of this surrender will be arranged between Lord Kitchener and Commandant General Botha, Assistant Commandant General de la Rey and Chief Commandant De Wet.

these munitions and guns were destroyed

a known site of destruction of ammunition was at Brandwater in the Free state, millions or rounds of ammo was destroyed.

Article 6 of the treaty:

" The Possession of Rifles will be allowed in the TRANSVAAL and ORANGE RIVER COLONY to persons requiring them for their protection on taking out a licence according to Law "

This allowed for sporting rifles and then also a licencing system under British law


Bester in his two books gives a very accurate and detailed account of exactly how many Boer war Mausers and ammo was imported from whom by whom and when landed ... to the date ! It's amazing that even in those times the OVS and ZAR Governments kept very accurate records of their transactions via the then main gun dealers and agents in the Republics.

There is a very myth regarding the Boer and his Mauser and that is the "legend of the Boer hunter and his Mauser" a myth largely propagated by the narrative put forth by the Afrikaner Brotherhood after the war. The narrative propagated to foster Afrikaner nationalism, interwoven with tales of heroism of what later has been proven in some instances to be fictitious characters or events.

The reason we can now say it's myth is because the Boer war Mauser was a rifle and its ammo that was specifically imported for the arming in a coming war. They were not privately owned prior to outbreak of the war itself. Boers did not get to go and hunt with them.

The only 7x57 Sporters were Plezier Mausers model 1895 and these were only made in 1895. these were imported in limited numbers and were sold to prospective buyers again only a year or so before outbreak of war.

the Boer republics had a huge problem , firstly prior to the war there was a variation of non military non standard rifles owned by farmers, most were still Martini Henry's also 6.5mm Krags and other makes, Secondly farmers were not soldiers and though touted by later propaganda as being excellent shots, many were not and had to be taught how to shoot !

Up to the Boer War hunting was conducted with BP rifles and elephant hunting mostly conducted with muzzle loaders !

Then off course a little detour, right when the Mauser makes its appearance !

We have to first take a step back in time to 1896 when the Rinderpest arrived ( showed up) in Southern Rhodesia on its way down south after first introduced in Eritrea by the Italian army in 1887 when they brought indian cattle into the area for their campaign in Africa.

The Rinderpest epidemic marched south at a rate of about 20 miles a day until finally it killed the introduced animals on the Rhodes estate on the slopes of Table mountain in 1897.

By then it had killed of 90 % of the cattle herds in Africa and as much game including which included buffalo ! There were no animals to hunt !

When the Sabi reserve was proclaimed after the war there was almost no game left in the lowveld
Even if you happened to have a 7x57 mauser there was nothing to shoot at !

From my collection: 1895 Plezier Mauser


A collection of surviving Boer war Rifles.

Truesdell SR
The rifle its development for big Game hunting:

Summary of high velocity small bores:


162 writer hunters polled through their writings

1906 to 1946

375 10 hunters
8mm Mauser (7.9mm) 7 hunters
9.3 Mauser 4 hunters
9mm Mauser 14 hunters
318 WR . 13 hunters
303 . 27 hunters
30-06 . 30 hunters
6.5mm mannlicher 36 hunters
7mm Mauser . 16 hunters

British East Africa formally known as German East africa up until the end of WWI; that would be Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania(now). Those countries the 8x57 would have surely been the most common followed by the 7x57, 6.5ms etc. The 9.3x62 came along and was said to be "all-the-rage" through out africa just like the 6.5 creedmore is today in the U.S. The 9.3x62 was a powerful medium in an inexpensive bolt rifle that the old farmer/ranchers could depend on for the heavy and nasty critters.

quote:

Originally posted by 376 steyr:
British East Africa formally known as German East africa up until the end of WWI; that would be Uganda, Kenya and Tanzania(now). Those countries the 8x57 would have surely been the most common followed by the 7x57, 6.5ms etc. The 9.3x62 came along and was said to be "all-the-rage" through out africa just like the 6.5 creedmore is today in the U.S. The 9.3x62 was a powerful medium in an inexpensive bolt rifle that the old farmer/ranchers could depend on for the heavy and nasty critters.

Wasn't German East Africa only Tanzania??

ALF, I could mount many arguments against your paperwork, not the least of which are that Truesdell was not beating the bushes for Boers to interview, and that Boers were not inclined then (or later) to abide by foreign edicts.

But I will let this one lie.

The 6.5 Mannlicher was always an elitist’s weapon, whereas the 7x57 was made for the rifleman proletariat.

Sad to say, but the proles always win, eventually.

This turned out to be an informative discussion. Alf thank you for sharing the the calibers of previous hunters.

Jim

I read Bell's book and I seem to recall he used a 6.5 MS mainly .. he also had a large bore H&H (500 Nitro maybe?) that was kept in reserve and put to use in tight situations. I also recall reading that when camping by a lake he would break out a case of ammo and shoot at flying waterfowl with the 6.5 to sharpen his skills.

My Great Uncle had a 7x57 Mauser that was apparently not destroyed after the Boer war .. but it was "confiscated" during WWII by the police and never seen again.

Same thing happened after the ANC came to power and introduced new restrictions on private firearms ownership. Since every legal firearm was licensed, the govt knew who had what .. thousands of firearms were turned in, some were earmarked as "historically significant" and saved, some found their way out of the country via Holts and other auctioneers, but my understanding is that a large number were destroyed. Somehow, criminals seem to have no problem getting handguns and AKs though. There is a theory that the govt condones a certain type of criminal activity so perhaps the rules are selectively applied.

No doubt the most common long gun in that part of the world is a .22LR, followed by the 12ga shotgun. Every high school had a bunch of Martini Cadets in 22 that were used for competition. Those seem to have disappeared without a trace. A large number of large bore Martini Henrys were deactivated (welded and the barrels filled with cement) for use by schools as drill rifles as well.

There were a lot of 303s floating around ... it was the issue rifle through about 1970. When things got serious the military went to the FN FAL in 7.62, and then to the Galil in 5.56. I heard that a most of the FNs got buried at sea by the ANC.

I often wonder what happened to my Sako 222 .. sold it when I came to the USA in 1980 for postgrad. I kept my Musgrave 308 and my father's Greener 12ga.

quote:

The 6.5 Mannlicher was always an elitist’s weapon, whereas the 7x57 was made for the rifleman proletariat

What 6.5 Mannlicher are you referring to ?

if it is the little 6x5x54 MS I can agree but the 6.5 that made the caliber popular was the Dutch/ Romanian or rather the Anglicized versions thereof. ie the M95 6.5×53mm R or .256 Mannlicher. The British trade sold these m95's under their respective banners and Kynoch supplied the ammo.

As to the Boer War and the aftermath of the Boer war there is in fact very accurate account of what weapons were available, what was ordered by whom, from whom and when it landed, Ammo as well
After the Jameson Raid both the OVS and ZAR governments tasked the various Commandos ( Commando System) with the task of not only recruiting males for war but also with doing a account of what weapons were available in private ownership in the two republics, (this data is captured in the archives )

for instance for each ward in a district there was an account of eligible males for conscription what guns they owned, whether the guns were actually serviceable and how much ammo they had.

The numbers are stunning ! only between 50 and 60 % or Burghers owned rifles ! So between 40 and 50 % owned no rifles ! And of those who owned rifles many were non serviceable The actual lists of guns by number and make was listed and can be viewed !
The most common guns were:
The Westley Richards Monkey tail, the WR Martini Henry and the Guedes Rifle ( Boer war Styer )
there was a smattering of shotguns and other rifles but not in any big number.

The Boer republics imported 50,000 Mausers and some 45,000 Martini Henry rifle and then a few Krag's

Besters two books gives a very accurate account of numbers in great detail gleaned from the archives.

Though some examples on Boer war rifles survived the majority were destroyed and I all my years I have never come across a South African hunter that was using a a actual Boer war 7x57 as a hunting rifle ! Also if the British post Boer war administration caught you with a weapon of war you were in deep deep trouble !

the 7x57's that you run across were for the most pre WW 1 M98 Sporters and off course Anglicized 7x57's

Encyclopedic is the word that comes to mind .. RSA is deprived of its finest minds thanks to the political and economic mess, which might have been avoided had the Nationalist Party adopted a more inclusive approach. If Mandela had been appointed the Minister of something instead of being sent to Robben Island, perhaps things would have turned out differently. Or perhaps not. We will never know.

Now since Zim is also "Sub-Saharan" Africa, we can talk about that country. I heard that Faradays has a safe room full of fine sporting rifles that were entrusted to their care by people who lost their farms and/or emigrated. Every once in a while I come across a firearm for sale out of Zim. A Paradox here, a double rifle there .. I bought an exceptionally nice drilling from Mike Bunce (Scherping 9.3x72R) which was sold on here in the USA.

The govt in Zim issues 303 Enfields to farmers under some program or other. These wered service rifles prior to the FN FAL. The odd battered 404 or 458 bolt rifle is seen in the hands of Parks rangers, and the anti-poaching patrols seem to favor single shot 12ga guns. But the most commonly seen rifle used by the game scouts in Zim is an AK. We all know where those came from.

As far as sporting rifles, being a British outpost, most period rifles seem to be English calibers, apart from the 458 which is probably the most common choice of the PH community.

There is much to debate about the Boer war and its weapons. Some interesting anecdotes for Americans

George Kynoch in England was one of the Preferred or "sole" suppliers of arms to the ZAR
In 1887 Kynoch supplied the ZAR with a number of Model 1866 and model 1873 Winchesters as well as a number of Remington Rifles

The first notation of a "Mauser" occurs in the 1887 Documentation related to Kynoch.

This is as far as archival material goes the first mention of a Mauser rifle.

Something to consider: The proclamation of the two Boer republics and their subsequent relationship to GP and the British colonies around them plays into what weapons were used at the time, further this the Boer brought with them advanced western civilization. The lands under their respective flags were surveyed, mapped and parcelled as farms each with a "grondbrief" land letter of ownership.
There was a system of law.

The first gun laws were enacted in September of 1882

Only licenced gun dealers could sell guns to citizens, citizens were issued with a gun permit and gun dealers had to keep records of what was sold in terms of guns and ammo and to who !

Ledgers were kept !

quote:

Originally posted by Singleshot03:
What was the most common metric Nitro express cartridges used in sub-Saharan Africa during the 1900's?

Thank you,

Jim

Nitro Express is not a designation for metric cartridges.

Common was the 6,5x54 MS , 7x57 , 9,3x62 , 10,75x68.

Not very common , 8x57 , 8mm Lebel , 10,75x73 (metric designation of the cartridge) , 11,2x72(R) Schüler and 12,7x70 Schüler and all metric military cartridges from the colonial troops.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
The .500 Jeffery was originally a German metric cartridge.
Cal

12,7x70 Schüler

Today there are differences in comparison with the 500 Jeffery.

Ah the Term " Nitro "

The British trade applied this term to " anglicized" metrics as well ! So they would take a 9,5 MS and call it a 375 Nitro express . There are many such examples.

They also appropriated other metrics and simply referred to them in English terms and often the word Nitro would be used by Kynoch denoting smokeless and opposed to BP

So we have 256's 275's 315's as in German 8mm and 360 as in German 9mm which all were sold in Sporting format.

As to the Boer war and it's aftermath;

We have today through the efforts of collectors a database of serial numbers of many surviving rifles... Bester cites about 1000 specimens of guns for which actually survived and have been verified and together with the archival data on when bought imported etc we can piece together whether a rifle sold in the collectors market today actually was a Boer war rifle or not ( this applies to the Boer side of the equation only)

This was and is a huge undertaking especially in view of the fact that the OVS archive was not particularly helpful, the Transvaal archive on the other hand was most helpful in their research.

It can be said that 100 years have to pass before the true history of an event can be revealed because by that time those who were directly involved and may harbor bias would be dead and gone.

The Boer war impacted everyone in SA one way or another, it set the scene for the whole geopolitical dispensation we have now. It gave rise Afrikaner nationalism on the but also African Nationalism on the other....

As it pertains to the subject of guns it was the catalyst that fanned a flame of love for a gun named simply as Mauser even though the Mauser of the War ( m 93 through 96 ) was not the Mauser our grandfathers, fathers and uncles hunted with !

While researching Chilean Mausers, I learned that some of the 50,000 OVS-marked Boer Mausers were diverted to Chile, actually 13,000 of them. So it's possible to find a "Boer" Mauser that has never been to Africa!