After reading an article in our local hunting magazine “Magnum†the question was posed “why a big bore†The basis of the article was if the .375 H&H has enough penetration with premium bullets to penetrate Buff and Ele from ALMOST any angle, why the big bores .416 and up? Are they necessary? And why put up with the extra recoil if its not necessary?

I have a .416 Rigby in my battery and my comments would be “because I canâ€

Although I have a 375 on my wish list right now, I guess the answer to your question is a simple

Why Not a bigger bore? If they want one and can shoot it well.

I always seemed to read the same comment time and again in many of the “There I was. . .†stories about professionals and their run-in’s with DG. Our intrepid hero (usually as a young PH/Guide/Adventurer) has an altercation with something large, stompy, gorey, bitey or scratchy and sorts it out with his trusty .375 H&H. He surveys the carcass, wiping the blood and other biological detritus off of his shoes (some of which came from the animal, some not). The comment always appears shortly afterward, and goes something like, “As soon afterward as I could afford it, I traded that .375 for a .4XXâ€

I know that the .375 will work most of the time, will clear up most situations without undue muss and fuss. I know that I’m unlikely to need or appreciate the power differential between a .375 and something larger, and that they’re harder to shoot well, are more expensive and so forth. I also know that, if I do need the extra power, I’ll need it very, very badly and it’ll be a little late to do anything about it if I didn’t bring it with me.

quote:

Originally posted by ghundwan:
After reading an article in our local hunting magazine “Magnum†the question was posed “why a big bore†The basis of the article was if the .375 H&H has enough penetration with premium bullets to penetrate Buff and Ele from ALMOST any angle, why the big bores .416 and up? Are they necessary? And why put up with the extra recoil if its not necessary?

If velocity is kept constant, bigger bore = bigger wound channel. This means more rapid demise of the animal. And for a near miss of the brain on an ele, bigger bore = more concussion to the brain, giving the shooter more time for a follow-up kill shot.

Also, although the .375 works, it does not ALWAYS work well.

Let the flaming begin...

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by ghundwan:
After reading an article in our local hunting magazine “Magnum†the question was posed “why a big bore†The basis of the article was if the .375 H&H has enough penetration with premium bullets to penetrate Buff and Ele from ALMOST any angle, why the big bores .416 and up? Are they necessary? And why put up with the extra recoil if its not necessary?

If velocity is kept constant, bigger bore = bigger wound channel. This means more rapid demise of the animal. And for a near miss of the brain on an ele, bigger bore = more concussion to the brain, giving the shooter more time for a follow-up kill shot.

Also, although the .375 works, it does not ALWAYS work well.

Let the flaming begin...

That about sums it up nicely!

Ghundwan,

I look at it this way..Would you want the minimum gun in your hands if...the proverbial sh-- hits the fan??? I want a bigger bullet coming out of my barrel..
I also shoot a 375 but I also shoot a 458 Lott and a 450 #2 NE.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

If velocity is kept constant, bigger bore = bigger wound channel. This means more rapid demise of the animal. And for a near miss of the brain on an ele, bigger bore = more concussion to the brain, giving the shooter more time for a follow-up kill shot.

If velocity is not kept constant, what is often the case going up with big calibres, you may run into trouble. There are many reports on shooting eles with .500 and up with lower velocity, leading to very unsufficient results (ele not down) and dangerous situations.

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Ghundwan,

I look at it this way..Would you want the minimum gun in your hands if...the proverbial sh-- hits the fan??? I want a bigger bullet coming out of my barrel..
I also shoot a 375 but I also shoot a 458 Lott and a 450 #2 NE.

Mike

Dear Mike,

I agree with 500 grains too, he summarized the whole.
Dear Mike, will You tell us if YOu trust a FAMARS RIFLE?

Norbert,
Will You be more clear, bringing more hard facts, as You are good at.

500grains:

By no means do I intend to start the "flaming". (I have too much respect for your views)

I had only one single experience with the 375 H&H. It was on buff at about 35 yards or so and the argument was over with the first shot. ( I took him on the point of the shoulder with a solid as he turned) I saw the results of that shot in the camp butchery that evening. As I said, I only used a 375 once in my life on game. I have, however, used the 7x57 Mauser on deer and black bear in North America. I was struck by the penetration of the 7mm. I think that's the key word about the 375 H & H. My PH in Africa told me that he usually used the 375 in "control" shooting of elephant in Zimbabwe because he could stand off at 75 yards and shoot. ( This was Zimbabwe in 1993 or earlier)

I freely will say that if I could have gone back to Africa for buff -that I would have used a 416 Rigby. Contradictory thinking? Maybe but maybe it's only based on having become thoroughly familiar with the 375 and trusting it implicitly - but if I can stop the oncoming locomotive with a bigger cannon - why gamble?

I think few would argue that an aggressive ele in tight cover would be about as bad as it gets.

Our own Ghyana reviewed the "situation reports" for encounters with wounded / aggressive ele in thick Jess. The reports were from Zim over a period of several years if memory serves. What he found was that the larger the hole in the end of the barrell the greater your chances of servival. Although the sample was too small to reach statistical significance, thats the knid of emperical evidence that is really usefull.

Of courese, the devil can be in the detail. Use premium bullets, make sure that velocity is over 2000 f/s, know how to shoot the rifle well and make sure the rifle is 100% reliable...

Brett

gerry, your single experience was a fortunate one. I have had too many good friends who have shot buffalo w/ .375 & had less than stellar performance. There next trips they took .40 bores & were much happier w/ the outcome. Bigger bullets, bigger holes, it's sounds simplistic & it is, but if you can shoot a bigger bore rifle I belive it does give you an edge. That goes for non DG as well.

500Grains:"If velocity is kept constant, bigger bore = bigger wound channel. This means more rapid demise of the animal. And for a near miss of the brain on an ele, bigger bore = more concussion to the brain, giving the shooter more time for a follow-up kill shot."

I agree with that but I would use the term "adequate", rather than "constant".

Norbert: "If velocity is not kept constant, what is often the case going up with big calibres, you may run into trouble. There are many reports on shooting eles with .500 and up with lower velocity, leading to very unsufficient results (ele not down) and dangerous situations."

I agree with this also and I believe the "trouble" Norbert refers to most often manifests itself in regard to the .500 N.E. when not loaded to full throttle, for whatever reason.

Shot for shot, the larger bores bring more wounding potential on heavy game, provided the speeds remain adequate to ensure sufficient penetration and/or softpoint expansion. The B/A .500's, Gibbs, A-Square and Jeffery offer a wider spectrum of effective velocity than does the Nitro-Express.

Shock and Awe.

Canuck

Nickudu and Jean:

quote:

I agree with this also and I believe the "trouble" Norbert refers to most often manifests itself in regard to the .500 N.E. when not loaded to full throttle, for whatever reason.

I don´t like to go into more details, because I don´t want to make a fool of rifle and bullet manufacturers. And the last report from 2004 was from a friend of mine not succeeded downing an ele in Cameroon, using .500 NE cartridges which he left for one year in the climate there. And a report from the famous ele hunter Schomburgk decades ago. He couldn´t down charging ele with his .600 NE with frontal shots. He saved his live with his last cartridge and a side brain shot.
In general, most failures of big bore cartridges are not published and not referred to in literature.

I'm also a fan of Clint Smith's simple but profound comment, "Bigger holes let in more air and let out more blood."

Why? - You do not try to swat flies with a toothpick do you?

Lets not leave out bullet weight/SD from the equation. The 577/650 gr load was as fast as the 577/750 gr load but was known to have insuffecient penetration. I will take a 550 gr 458 bullet at 2150fps over a 450 No2 bullet of 480 gr also at 2150 any day.

465H&H

A .375 is a wonderful hunting rifle. However, it isn't a very good "Holy Sh*t, what do I do now?" rifle. For that matter, I don't think the .40 calibers are very good rescue-yer-a$$ rifles, either. When things go south, there simply is nothing like the value of frontal area. Getting penetrated with an ice pick will definitely kill you but getting punched good and hard with a big fist will knock you down and out of the fight. That's where .45 or larger becomes really comforting. Does the tourist hunter need a cannon. No. The PH needs the cannon. Do some tourist hunters feel better carrying a Class III DGR? Oh, yeah!

I asked Brad Rolston, a Pro who posts here why he chose .577 NE 3 1/4 caliber for his new SEARCY SxS, and not a .500 or .600 or .700 or what ever.
He said basically this, "It's velocity is 2100 FPS with a 750 grn bullet, and it's the BIGGEST rifle that I can carry all day - then shoot it well at the END of the day. It's definitely more insurance than a .500 and the .600 is too heavy."

That's enough reasons for me.

The key is what you can shoot well. I just got a 416 but I cant shoot it well enough yet to be certain of the shot. I shoot my .375 for everything and feel comfortable with it in any circumstance. Mabe after a year or two of practice I will feel the same way about the 416.

Reading between the lines a .375 H&H is sufficient but not recommended. If you can handle a 4xx go that root - just in case. I am now dam glad I opted for the .416 Rigby when I put my Rands on the table. and that thanks to you guys....

.

The smaller a hunter's willie, the bigger its rifle's calibre.

Scientifically proofed.

From the writings of Ganyana:

"As for real world experience - personal tally so far with my 7.62 Nato - over 100 buffalo, and two elephant. With a 9,3x62 41 one shot kills on buff and six elephant. One wounded elephant dropped cleanly with my 7x57.

Failures on elephant 2- one with a .458 and one with a .458 Lott. (Bullet failure and compressed powder trouble - animals finished off with something smaller.)

Used a .375 for buff for a short while with every satisfaction.

That said, a .505 Gibbs flattens a buffalo so much more spectacularly than a .375 you have to see it to appreciate it.

On our elephant culls (which I attended as the research officer) a .470 .500 NE, or even a .458 Lott putts an elephant down so much more quickly than even a regular .458. In thick cover, where you may easily only be able to see for a shot at a range of a couple of paces, the margin of safety offered by a big bore is very significant.

Also, the culling officers started with a heavy to ensure that the lead cows went down for sure and then switched to a .30 cal for the rest. Out of 16000 elephant, Clem recons he has shot 7-800 with a big bore and the rest with a .30-06 or a 7.62x54R, but if you need an animal down for sure, use a big bore."
______________

From Ganyana:

“Today, the .505 is seeing quite a renaissance. I have seen more .505’s in the field the last two years than I’ve seen .460 Weatherby’s. The reason is simple. Like the English worked out a century ago, provided the bullet gives adequate penetration, if you want to increase stopping power, you have to increase bullet diameter. End of story.â€

quote:

Originally posted by Sunshine:
The smaller a hunter's willie, the bigger its rifle's calibre.

Scientifically proofed.

Crap, I guess I'll have to make the 22LR my goto DGR!

Gentlemen, my thoughts on this matter are, there is more to a stopping rifle than bore size, and bullet weight/construsction! Many things have to be taken into consideration, in addtion to the chambering of the rifle used to sort out a tight sittuation!

First the rifle must be one you can carry all day, and still shoot well at sundown! That alone will cut some chamberings out of the running. Secondly, the recoil of the rifle, you choose, will need to be low enough that you can recover quick enough to get another bullet in the wind! That, also, will elliminate some chamberings. Thirdly, the type of rifle is as important, if not more important, than the chambering.

I say if one goes with chambering only, then the 577NE would be my largest to be considered, but, IMO, not needed. Also in my opinion, anything above the 500NE is wasted energy, and recoil. in the final annalysis, anything from a 300 mag will stop anything liveing on this planet, with the proper bullet, in the right place. The problem comes when the bullet is not proper, or is not place properly.

If you have a properly designed rifle, useing properly designed bullets, and can carry it all day, and shoot it well, then the only thing left to make one better than the other, is the size of the hole punched in the target, to let wind blow through. IMO, the big boys, give you one thing the little guys don't, and that is weight/diameter of the bullet. The heavier the bullet is, the more resistance that is needed to stop it! the diameter makes a bigger hole the brader it is! However, this is all acadimic, if you don't put the ball in the hoop, in the first place, and if you don't, then the rifle type becomes the barrier to getting off a follow up shot.

I believe where Ele are concerened, the 500NE double is the best choice one can make to hedge all bets. However, any of the .400s .450s, or .475 bores pushing a 400gr to 500gr solids range of 2100-2400 fps will work just fine, in tight cover, as long as a proper rifle, and a shooter who can shoot it are in the mix!

IMO, the bigger bullets give the shooter, and bit of time, more than the smaller ones, for a second shot, when it is needed most! As Canuck says SHOCK & AWE! While thay are still dizzy, pop um again!

Dan and Norbert are both right.

Do the math.

A 375 produces a 4.3 cubic inch wound cavity if it penetrates 39 inches of elephant skull.

A .416 cubic 5.3 inches.

A .458 6.4 ci.

A 475 6.9 ci.

A .510 7.9 ci!

Why 39 inches? Because that is how thick my elephant skull was from below right eye to exit under skin on opposite side.

You can dial in any penetration you want that you know your FMJ bullet has made and the advantage of bigger bore is obvious.

I know Dan does not shoot squib loads in his .500 so overcomming all that frontal area is not a problem w proper ammo, but as Norbert is trying to remind us, it is alot of frontal area (.204 square inch, or almost double a 375's .110). So dont be shy w the powder.

Personally, I like the .375 even though I used a 450 Dakota. My PH, Myles McCallum was emphatic that it had more penetration than any other ctg including his 416 rigby.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Norbert:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

If velocity is kept constant, bigger bore = bigger wound channel. This means more rapid demise of the animal. And for a near miss of the brain on an ele, bigger bore = more concussion to the brain, giving the shooter more time for a follow-up kill shot.

If velocity is not kept constant, what is often the case going up with big calibres, you may run into trouble. There are many reports on shooting eles with .500 and up with lower velocity, leading to very unsufficient results (ele not down) and dangerous situations.

It is unclear to me why anyone would download the .500 NE for hunting elephant. Instead of doing that, I would hunt with a .375 H&H.

quote:

It is unclear to me why anyone would download the .500 NE for hunting elephant. Instead of doing that, I would hunt with a .375 H&H.

In a word, recoil. Many have found their doubles more pleasant to shoot at reduced velocity, unaware of the criticality of maintaining design velocity, as caliber increases. I witnessed this first hand where a .500 N.E. loading of 1,950 was developed for use on ele by a woman. Insufficient penetration was soon evident.

.