Ok guys, bear with me, I know this topic has been hashed out a lot and everybody has an opinion. But here goes. In the next couple of years I plan to hunt plansgame in africa. The largest animal I expect to hunt is Kudo.

This year I have worked hard to substantially improve my rifle shooting skills and have done so in a light caliber .223. Next, I need to move up and am trying to figure out what rifle and caliber setup will be sufficient for planegame.

The issue is: Clearly, the view on this board and others is that heavier bullets of larger calibers is preferred over the converse. I understand this is mainly due to increased weight retention of the larger bullets. But, as I understand it, with the solid copper bullets (i.e., Barnes, etc.) you get the same effect with a lighter solid copper bullet as you would with say a Nosler Partition. Has this been proven true in your experience?

And if so, considering that I will make accurate shots, which of the two setups presented below is most preferred? (I specifically did not name a "caliber" so as not to start a "favorite caliber discussion!")

From a training/practicing standpoint I would prefer the reduced recoil and possibly lighter weight oof Setup 1. And if you suggest one over the other, please explain why and how much a difference you think it could make? Again, thanks for your replies as I have learned a great deal on this board.

Setup 1: .284 caliber, 160 gr. Barnes XLC, 2650 fps, SD .283, BC .508

Setup 2: .308 caliber, 200 gr. Nosler Partition, 2650 fps, SD .301 , BC .408

Regards,
Howard

[ 05-21-2003, 15:34: Message edited by: benzh ]

Benzh,

If recoil is a problem, then why not go with the 300 WSM. It kicks about like a .30-06 and hits like it's bigger cousin the .300 Win Mag.

Loaded with a 180-grain Fail Safe bullet, you can cleanly take any non-dangerous game in the world. This is the caliber my kids are going to be using in Africa on kudu and gemsbok, mainly for the lower felt recoil.

Howard:

In my opinion, penetration is the goal, not weight retention. The heavy-for-caliber bullets have better S.D.s and therefore penetrate better. I'd say both of your caliber/bullet weight choices would work fine, but I'd reduce velocities to 2500-2550 fps at the muzzle. This will reduce recoil and enhance bullet integrity, and at the ranges you'll typically shoot in Africa, the lower velocity won't make any realistic difference in trajectory. Of the two, my personal choice would be the 200-grain Partition. FWIW.

[ 05-21-2003, 17:10: Message edited by: Slingster ]

Been over twice, so I'm hardy an expert. I did take my .280 Rem both trips with 150 and 175 gr Nosler partitions. The 150's were used on impala,bushbuck,blesbok and warked well as would be expected. My sole 175 gr kill was a mature black wildebeest at 175 yds as I recall. Broke shoulders,etc and down he went.

I think that weight retention is fine, but many people get way too wound around the axle on that single point. Same with BC figures. As long as you emply of well constructed bullet you should be fine.

IMHO ........ PLACEMENT is the main goal. As long as you have an appropriate cartridge with a decent bullet it will all work out. I've seen a few hunters with 7mm-08's that were absolute hell on mature elk (at typical African distances too) Yet other hunters were wounding the same animals and losing them with much larger calibers.

Prior to my first trip to RSA I absolutely obsessed over accuracy, maximum weight retention,flattest trajectory,etc. When I needed to just SHOOT my rifle from field positions, learning to quickly and efficiently place a bullet in the vitals. Which is what I did on my 2nd trip and THAT trip went a lot better.

Your plan looks good to me, try some NP's or if you can get them to shoot X's and have at it. Don't obsess over the recoil thing.Surely get a rifle you can handle though! You will probably never even notice the recoil or muzzle blast anyway when your shooting at game.

FN in MT

Based on a fair amount of experience with the .300 Winchester on plainsgame, I don't think you need more bullet weight than 180 grs. to get the job done on any of these animals, including eland, just so long as you select a strongly-constructed bullet.

If I were to choose a plainsgame cartridge with less recoil and noise than my preferred .300 Winchester, I'd select the .30-06, and I'd load it with 180 gr. Nosler Partitions to a velocity of 2700 fps. or a bit better. The '06 has proven itself on countless plainsgame/mixed-bag safaris, as has the 180 Nosler Partition bullet. You won't go wrong with his comb, and it's easy to shoot with confidence.

AD

I have to agree with Allan on his observations about .30 cal, 180 grain bullets, I too have had tremendous results on the large plainsgame species including eland, with Nosler Partition Golds.

As to the .284, I have used it on smaller antelope and have had great success with it on species like Mtn reedbuck, springbok, impala, and blesbok. In those cases, I used Hornady's light mag's, 139 grain moly coated softs.

Don Martin
www.EndlessSafari.com

benzh,
Some observations...
I've personally used the .30-06 w/ 180 Grains Noslers at a MZL. Velocity of 2,725 FPS. That's accounted for a fair amount of game all the way up to Eland. Use a behind the shoulder shot if you tackle one of those. We've had quite a few clients show up over the years with 7MM Rem. Mag's with 160 grain Noslers, usually Federal Permium loads. These run around 2,950 FPS. I'm not saying that these velocities are necessary, just that that is what they are. The 7 MM Mag people had pretty much the same results that I always had with the -06. SO either one of your choices would be fine but as Allen mentioned, the 200 grain .308 cal. could be replaced with the 180. I don't personally like the Mono bullets but then, I'm old fashioned.

Rich Elliott

From those two choices, I would suggest going with the .308. I am a firm
believer in heavier bullets in every case. In my humble opinion the 200 grain
bullet will penetrate farther and do more damage than the lighter bullet. Not
every shot can be perfectly placed at the optimum angle so you need every little
bit of effectiveness you can get. You are also more likely to find factory ammo
available for your 308 anywhere in the world than you are for the .284 (in case
the ammo is lost in transit). I believe that you have more hand loading options
too. You are right about selecting a premium bullet to hunt with, but because
you will be shooting a great deal to practice - you may want to find a cheaper
practice load that duplicates the point of impact of your hunting load.

While I can't attest to their effect on game, I recently tested some solid
copper Groove bullets for accuracy with fantastic results. You may want to
check them out when you delvelop your hunting load. A link to their site is
below.

Good luck, and good hunting!
Mike.

ps: 30-06 would also be a fine choice

It sounds like you are trying to pick between calibers, as you didn't specify a cartridge. I wouldn't hesitate to get a good 06/180 premium bullet & never look back. It's not my personal choice but it is a good one (JMHO).

As long as you do your part, anything from the 7mm mags up will do the trick, however, I'll say, I agree with Allen, my pick is the 300 mag, mine being the H&H version, but any of the 300 mags will do anything you want on plains game with a 180 Nosler Partition! The old 06 will suffice, but for my part it is the 300 H&H, wby,Win mag, with the 180 NOSLER PARTITION!

Both of them look pretty good to me. Pick the one you like the best.

Too much stressing about getting all the nitty gritty perfect on these boards.

The Afrikaaner farmers will just go out with their 7mm, 8mm, .303 or .308s (even .243s) and knock everything over without developing ulcers in the process.

Benzh,
If the 300WSM or 300 Win Mag recoil doesn't bother you either would be an excellent choice.
I would choose the 180 gr. Failsafe if your gun shoots them well. I shot 180 ge. Power Point Plus last year, taking 10 animals with 12 shots. I wasn't impressed with the performance with these bullets because on two of the animals the bullet came apart on bones. If you don't like the recoil then the 7mm WSM with 160 gr failsafe would be great or 140 gr Failsafe handloads. If I were taking the 284 Win. I would definately use the 140 gr Failsafe handload if it shot well in my gun.

Most rifle cases take at least two rifles, and there is no penalty for weight in taking two. My suggestion is: take both! Then you have a back up. Each rifle is perfectly capable of killing any plains game you'll be hunting. You are using heavy for caliber bullets in both.

I'd suggest using 180 gr bullets with the .308 because I don't believe with premium bullets there is that much difference between the two bullet weights. In fact, I might go with a 165 gr bullet because the balistic curve of the two loads would be very similar. I do not believe your plains game will be able to tell the difference between a 165 partition and a 180 partition. Ku-dude

I have used the 300's with the 200 gr. Noslers on everything and I can't say enough about them..Your ready for about anything that walks, talks, breaths or crawls....that would be my choice if Eland were on the menu or if I were in Lion, Buff or DG country...

Otherwise I would join the 06 group with the 180 Noslers.. I wouldn't be bothered a bit if I had to shoot only an 06 for the rest of my life with the bullets of MY choice.

not many attempts to answer your question. My trips to africa to date have been as an ecologist, not as a hunter.

but there is nothing wrong with either of your choices. You limit velocity to 2650 and I would take the one that shoots best and recoils least.

Which one do you KNOW will shoot to point of aim all the time?

everyone is talking magmum. Why? the one comment regarding the afrikaan farmers using 7mm, 8mm, 308 and even 243 tells it all.

I will take my 7X65R or 7X64, the metric equivalent of the 280, and kill everything I hit with it. I hope to never shoot another magnum cartrige. ever. I just dont like the shock to the old bones.

If more power is needed, go up in caliber. And if accuracy is needed, why not go down in caliber rather than try and overcompensate by magnumizing...a hot at 2200 fps is better than a miss or bad hit at 2900.

A good shot and load combination with the 270, 280, 308, 30-06, 8mm, will consistently outshoot most peoples skill levels, with their flinching magnums when shooting from field positions.

Take the thirty minute test: shoot for ten minutes apiece with three rifles, offhand at 100 yards, then from kneeling or over sticks, then prone.

compare the targets, and go with the rifle that gives the best composite accuracy.

It will be very clear which rifle to use if you rely on actual shooting results for you and your rifles.

It really does not matter a whit what I or anyone else has or uses best. What is your best shooter?

Hope to hear how it goes for you.