Public Statement No. 2

We would like to thank our Agents, Associates and Friends of The Hide for their overwhelming support in the form of emails, telephone calls and prayers, after the tragic accident at The Hide. We apologize in advance if we have not got back to you all individually.

Unfortunately, the extremely tragic and freak accident at The Hide has resulted in many incorrect rumours. We would like to put an end to the rumours by giving a more detailed description of exactly what happened. We have extracted the following information from statements and feedback from the investigation into the accident.

The Parker family had been at The Hide for one night and were scheduled to stay for one more night. On the morning of the 24th of March, the family went on an early morning bush walk before breakfast with one of our freelance professional armed guides.
The same professional guide took the Parker family on a game drive after breakfast, along one of the most common routes we use, past Kennedy 1 waterhole and onto Kennedy 2 waterhole. At Kennedy 2, the guide Andy Trivella and the Parkers, Kelvin, Veronica and Charlotte stopped for drinks to watch game come to the waterhole. The guide pointed out that an elephant bull was coming down to the waterhole on the far side and offered the Parkers the opportunity to walk closer to get a better view of the bull.
The family followed the guide on a long circular route around the waterhole to get closer, always keeping a fair distance between them and the bull. The group stopped behind a large termite mound to observe the bull. At this stage the bull was still some distance away and was lazily feeding along a common elephant path, walking right to left to the waterhole (the elephant path ran in front and across the group some 100m away). The elephant left the path coming towards the termite mound still feeding and unaware of the group, nevertheless gaining ground slowly. At this point the guide noticed that the elephant bull was in musth (A periodic condition characterized by aggressive behaviour and an increase in the reproductive hormone testosterone.) He advised the Parkers that it was time to leave and they started backing away from the termite mound to some bush cover, keeping the termite mound between themselves and the elephant.
The bull must have picked up movement or a scent even though the wind direction was in the groups favour. The bull then mock charged toward the termite mound (a mock charge is easily distinguished from a full charge because the ears are kept open and forward. A full charge is when the elephant tucks its ears back, drops its head with the trunk between its legs). The guide stepped out and shouted, which stopped the bull, it mock charged again and he shouted again stopping the elephant, the bull then continued with its charge. The guide fired a warning shot above the bull’s head but the shot did not deter the bull. The guide did not manage to discharge another shot as the elephant ran him over. The bull went onto to knock Charlotte over as she was not far behind the guide, killing her instantly. The bull then chased Kelvin for some distance as he ran away in a zig zag fashion. Kelvin noticed the bull gaining ground on him but for some reason the bull stopped and went back towards Veronica who must have stopped running. The bull charged Veronica, killing her instantly. The elephant then moved off disappearing into the bush. Kelvin was not injured during this incident and Andy, the guide had no major physical injuries.

We chartered a light aircraft to fly Kelvin and his family via Bulawayo back to Harare. With the invaluable help of the British Embassy (Sarah Mannell), pathologists, funeral services, we managed to repatriate Kelvin and family back to the UK on the early morning flight of the 28th of March.

Andy, the guide, was taken to hospital in Bulawayo where he received treatment. Andy was released from hospital a week after the accident.

Kelvin has indicated that he would like to donate and replace the noisy diesel Lister pump at Kennedy 2 with a solar pump and name it in memory of Charlotte. He is also establishing a scholarship foundation called “The Charlotte Parker Foundation for Education in Southern Africaâ€. He is seeking help from anyone interested and who has experience in setting up such a foundation. Anyone interested in helping Kelvin, please contact Gavin at The Hide (gavin@thehide.co.zw).

As of the 20th of April 2007, The Hide has commenced walking in the Park again.

We hope the above will put to rest the rumours that are circulating.

Kind Regards

The Management and Staff at the Hide Safaris

quote:

The guide fired a warning shot above the bull’s head but the shot did not deter the bull. The guide did not manage to discharge another shot as the elephant ran him over. The bull went onto to knock Charlotte over as she was not far behind the guide, killing her instantly. The bull then chased Kelvin for some distance as he ran away in a zig zag fashion. Kelvin noticed the bull gaining ground on him but for some reason the bull stopped and went back towards Veronica who must have stopped running. The bull charged Veronica, killing her instantly. The elephant then moved off disappearing into the bush. Kelvin was not injured during this incident and Andy, the guide had no major physical injuries.

I would be surprised if this was an accurate description of the event.

Jason

why what have you heard?

So does that mean that Andy will not be charged with anything ? I hope that it will be so.

This report leaves out more details on the elephant's final approach and charge than it includes.

Why didn't the guide get his group the hell out of there as soon as he realized that the elephant was in musth? (All rules of elephant behavior go out the window when dealing with a bull in musth.)

How far away was the elephant when it stopped, after the guide shouted, in each of his two mock charges? (Too close for comfort, apparently, at least with respect to the second mock charge.)

When the elephant began its final, real charge, how close did the guide let him get before firing a warning shot over the elephant's head? (Perhaps it's better to hold fire until you need it and then fire for effect.)

Why did the guide fire a warning shot at a genuinely charging, as opposed to mock charging, elephant? (Perhaps it's not as easy to distinguish between the two as this report seems to indicate.)

What prevented the guide from firing another shot after his warning shot failed to stop the elephant? (The key question.)

Maybe there are good answers to each of these questions. But we sure don't have them in this report. As I've said before about this situation, fair or not, the buck stops with the man holding the rifle.

Guys,

None of us were there! Given that I find it difficult to speculate on what might have happened and hard to find fault with the guide. A PH I respect and had two long safaris with had a client killed in a very similiar circumstance. Elephant charged, PH fired warning shot, ele stops, party moves off, ele charges again, PH turns to fire, trips in pig hole, ele runs him over, ele catches client crushing and goring him, ele runs off, PH now on his feet fires at ele, ele escapes, client is stone dead, PH hardly scratched. Shit happens! It's dangerous game.

Mark

Mark, as I said above, perhaps there are good answers to all of my questions.

But you need to remember that this report was supposed to quell the rumors (it's not clear what the rumors were all about, but apparently there were some).

Here's the lead in one more time:

quote:

Unfortunately, the extremely tragic and freak accident at The Hide has resulted in many incorrect rumours. We would like to put an end to the rumours by giving a more detailed description of exactly what happened. We have extracted the following information from statements and feedback from the investigation into the accident.

All I nave noted above is that this information has not answered all of the questions or any of the truly significant ones that could - and I submit, should - have been asked. I wonder whether the inquiry into this incident is officially over?

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

Here's the lead in one more time:

quote:

Unfortunately, the extremely tragic and freak accident at The Hide has resulted in many incorrect rumours. We would like to put an end to the rumours by giving a more detailed description of exactly what happened. We have extracted the following information from statements and feedback from the investigation into the accident.

All I nave noted above is that this information has not answered all of the questions or any of the truly significant ones that could - and I submit, should - have been asked. I wonder whether the inquiry into this incident is officially over?

quote:

He advised the Parkers that it was time to leave and they started backing away from the termite mound to some bush cover, keeping the termite mound between themselves and the elephant.

It seems to be mostly all there. The party started to move off as soon as the PH saw the bull was it musth.

As for the rest of the spectulation for all we know the rest only took a few seconds.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
But you need to remember that this report was supposed to quell the rumors (it's not clear what the rumors were all about, but apparently there were some).

What? There were enough rumours on AR alone. Things like the bull was "wounded" etc etc.

Easy to be keyboard experts. Deaths happen with dangerous animals in Africa.

Seems to me the problem in situations like these is the "warning" shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Public Statement No. 2

(a mock charge is easily distinguished from a full charge because the ears are kept open and forward. A full charge is when the elephant tucks its ears back, drops its head with the trunk between its legs).

The guide fired a warning shot above the bull’s head but the shot did not deter the bull. The guide did not manage to discharge another shot as the elephant ran him over.

The statement about the ears being back on a real charge is not necessarily true. See the photo below, ears out but in full charge, no mock. The elephant in the photo also failed to stop at a warning shot, made (by the Ph) about when the photo was taken. This elephant was ultimately stopped at 7yds by a shot to the head (by the hunter - me, though since the PH had a double rifle, he could have done it too.)

I believe Showbart is correct about the warning shots. One thing if the PH is with an armed hunter, another if not. Also it is a mistake to assume you know more than the elephant about what it is doing or going to do.


JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Public Statement No. 2

(a mock charge is easily distinguished from a full charge because the ears are kept open and forward. A full charge is when the elephant tucks its ears back, drops its head with the trunk between its legs).

The guide fired a warning shot above the bull’s head but the shot did not deter the bull. The guide did not manage to discharge another shot as the elephant ran him over.

The statement about the ears being back on a real charge is not necessarily true. See the photo below, ears out but in full charge, no mock. The elephant in the photo also failed to stop at a warning shot, made (by the Ph) about when the photo was taken. This elephant was ultimately stopped at 7yds by a shot to the head (by the hunter - me, though since the PH had a double rifle, he could have done it too.)

I believe Showbart is correct about the warning shots. One thing if the PH is with an armed hunter, another if not. Also it is a mistake to assume you know more than the elephant about what it is doing or going to do.


JPK

The statement about elephants only charge with their ears back, etc., is another urban legend, or is it rural legend, that gets perpetuated like the need for barrel band swivels, etc.

Unless one was there to witness it, who knows what could have been done differently. Things can go to hell in a hurry. It is a wonder this sort of thing doesn't happen more often.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Guys,

None of us were there! Given that I find it difficult to speculate on what might have happened and hard to find fault with the guide. A PH I respect and had two long safaris with had a client killed in a very similiar circumstance. Elephant charged, PH fired warning shot, ele stops, party moves off, ele charges again, PH turns to fire, trips in pig hole, ele runs him over, ele catches client crushing and goring him, ele runs off, PH now on his feet fires at ele, ele escapes, client is stone dead, PH hardly scratched. Shit happens! It's dangerous game.

Mark

I think Mark pretty much summaries it by "Shit happens."

On the other hand, there is this ingrained belief and rule that PH's (and guides) must use the warning shot as the required first line of defense. Throw in the "rule" that charging elephants cannot be shot until they are within ten yards and it becomes absurd, and suicidal in this case.

If they are close enough for a warning shot they are close enough for a warning shot between the eyes.

Will, well said.
Ther eis an ele mock charge somewhere on youtube that is truly amazing. Several repeated mock charges to a very close distance with the armed guide constantly backing away through a cloud of dust, etc, etc. Had i been the armed fellow, i would have shot long ago.....

10 yards is too little when one is protecting other lives at risk. If the guide is on his own then perhaps I could understand the logic; that guide is protecting 1 life, his and he has the gun.

There are many nuances to elepahnt behavior that I have never, nor will ever, experience but I would not trust them.

If you watch the videos some of them show the mock charging elephant finally back-peddling away and then turning around to leave but constantly swinging its head from side to side, watching the hunter(s) behind him.

There is some point with a mock-charging elephant where they get too close to back down, as they do not like showing their backside at such close range. Maybe that is what happened at the Hide.

This is probably why it is good defense to be constantly backing away from a mock-charging elephant, where the elephant is coming for a few steps and then pulling up, and then repeating the demonstration.

That is all fine and good as long as you don't stumble or fall down, where the elephant might act on this sign of weakness. And shooting from the prone position is going to be tough.

Warning shot? You know where to place it, eh?

Wild animals are very unpredictable, and no one can guess what they might do at any time.

We have been charged by elephants on a number of occasions - luckily we never had any close calls yet.

Like Will said above, I am not going to fire any warning shots when an elephant is bearing down on me. I will give him as much chance to stop or turn away, but once he gets too close for comfort, he will be brained.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
If they are close enough for a warning shot they are close enough for a warning shot between the eyes.

Gotta love this quote. No disagreement from me, I think it is good thinking.

JPK

As has been said, elephants can be and often are not always easy to predict. There are things that will turn a charge, mock or otherwise, but none (at least, none that I know) that will work every time, so a wise man should always leave time and space to put in a killing shot if necessary. One trick that has worked a treat for me in the past and was suggested to me by Ganyana is a shot through the outside edge of the ear. - I guess it must sound like a clap of thunder right next to them and on the few occasions I've used it, it 's worked like a charm........ make sure it's the outside edge as if it's too far in, you'll penetrate the body.

It's also always worth remembering that what starts as a mock charge can turn into a real one in a split second..... all it takes is a change of mind. Also remember that elephants from some areas can often be considerably more aggressive than from other areas. - The Zambezi ladies are famous for their aggression as many here will know. KNP elephants on the other hand, are usually a lot more relaxed for the obvious reason...... BUT it didn't stop my friend Kay Hiscocks getting killed by one a few years ago. - Caution is always advised......

Asking hard questions after an event like this may not be pleasant, but it is necessary if we are to learn anything useful from it. Details are needed, and the surviving guide and husband certainly could provide them, or at least some of them.

To suggest, as NitroX has done, that "it's mostly all there" in the Hide's follow up report is to ignore this truth and take the easy way out.

Elephant are indeed unpredictable. We have been charged a number of times by bull elephant, and it is unnerving to say the least. There is no relief like the relief of seeing him back away as you and yours are backing away at the same time.

And let's not forget, again, that this bull was in musth, a state of heightened excitement, irritability and aggression. Whatever anyone might think he knows about elephant behavior does not extend to the behavior of a testosterone-filled and adrenaline-charged bull in musth.

Tourists in Africa - and especially those who hunt - assume the risk that wild animals will attack and kill them. That does not mean that we should just shrug our shoulders and not try to learn what we can from each incident, like this one, where someone is hurt or killed.

It is good practice to fire a warning shot, as long as it is aimed between the eyes.

There are some very good replies on this topic, with which I fully agree. The most important is that wild animals are unpredictable and they will kill you. If you go in DG areas make sure your insurance is in order, Shit does happen.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
and on the few occasions I've used it,

hmmmmm.......

Of course, let's not kid ourselves. In this case, as in similar cases, there is also the real fear on the part of the guide and his employer that they may be sued and found liable for negligence (although the odds for that seem low, given the surviving husband's actions thus far in the wake of the incident, as reported by The Hide).

There is also the fear on the guide's part that he may lose his license.

These concerns often stand in the way of and sometimes prevent full disclosure of the facts. That is a reality that I do not discount. That does not, however, excuse the failure to ask the hard questions.

Speaking only for myself, if I were a guide under these circumstances, I would rather risk losing my license, or my life, than the lives of my clients. As I have said, the buck stops with the man holding the rifle, right or wrong, fair or not.

He is the one on the scene, and the one who will have to live the rest of his life as one of only two survivors of this incident. I do not mean to suggest that he did anything wrong. We can't know or say that on the facts so far presented. I sincerely hope that the guide in this incident can get on with his life secure in the knowledge that he did all that he could to safeguard his clients.

quote:

Speaking only for myself, if I were a guide under these circumstances, I would rather risk losing my license, or my life, than the lives of my clients. As I have said, the buck stops with the man holding the rifle, right or wrong, fair or not.

He is the one on the scene, and the one who will have to live the rest of his life as one of only two survivors of this incident. I do not mean to suggest that he did anything wrong. We can't know or say that on the facts so far presented. I sincerely hope that the guide in this incident can get on with his life secure in the knowledge that he did all that he could to safeguard his clients.

Do not forget, he was the first one to get stomped, and in spite of the tragic aftermath of that, he was clearly DISABLED, and while not life threatening injuries, it was bad enough to put him in the hospital for a full week. In my humble opinion, "he tried to take one for the team" and stay between the elephant and his clients, but his defensive line was just not enough under the circumstances.

I believe the actions of both the PH, and the grieving husband appear honorable. It's always easy to be an armchair quaterback. I don't think the husband would be doing everything he's doing if he felt there was anyone at fault here. I think he realized what he was getting himself into when he went there with his family to walk amongst the animals.

quote:

Originally posted by N'gagi:
I believe the actions of both the PH, and the grieving husband appear honorable. It's always easy to be an armchair quaterback. I don't think the husband would be doing everything he's doing if he felt there was anyone at fault here. I think he realized what he was getting himself into when he went there with his family to walk amongst the animals.

Very true words

The impulse to assume the best is a good human trait, but it is a poor predicate for action or behavior. There is no doubt that the guide took one for the team. He stood his ground, by all accounts, and was rendered hors de combat and spent a week in the hospital, according to The Hide's follow up report.

What happened before he was struck by the elephant is what is most interesting and determinative, however. The timing, circumstances and consequences of first seeing that the elephant was a bull in musth, the backing away, the shouting, the mock charges, the final charge, the warning shot, the inability to follow up with a killing or disabling or turning shot.

These important questions - important, that is, to those who would seek to learn anything useful from this affair - remain largely unanswered. For reasons discussed above, I recognize that they may never be answered.

But I do not apologize in any way, shape or form for asking these questions - the head in the sand approach has never appealed to me. No one should ever be afraid to ask such questions after an incident like this one.

Also, for the record, I am not armchair quarterbacking, unless asking questions is quarterbacking. And getting answers to these questions is necessary before we can hope to know precisely why this unfortunate incident took place - or before anyone can do any armchair quarterbacking, if so inclined.

It is not enough, and is indeed far too facile, to ignore these questions and simply assert that it's dangerous to do what these people were doing.

As for whether the surviving husband knew what he was getting into when he took his family on their game-viewing walk, I would suggest that he manifestly and absolutely had no earthly clue. But that's another topic entirely.

It has been my experience that it is very difficult to tell a mock charge from a real charge. I believe that often even the elephant doesn't know which it is. They seem to be like women and change their minds on a microseconds notice. The vid of a cow charge on Jim Shockey's intro for his show is an excellent example. She goes from what appears to be a real charge to mock, to real and back to mock in the span of 3 seconds.

The Zim 10 yard rule in my opinion is a good one. At that range a second shot from a double is very doable if the first doesn't work. Just because an elephant doesn't stop at the 10 yard mark doesn't mean it will not stop. Very experienced guides will tell you that some eles (ones known to them) will stop well inside 10 yards. But again in my opinion you are flirting with death to let those get that close. In that, inside 10 yards things can happen so quick that you may not have time to react.

There is one type of charge (I have seen it twice) that IMO the elephant has no intention to stop. When they charge with their heads held very close to the ground (seemingly with their tusks skimming barely over the ground), their trunks against their chests and their ears either in a half cocked or full back position and they come silently, they intend to kill you. With that type of charge I would not necessarily wait until they cross the 10 yard line.

My rule is that if they are coming at me at speed and they cross the 10 yard line I will shoot.

465H&H

mrlexma,

For sure, I don't know what happened but following the lessons to be learned from Scooter, I think the best report by the Guide would be "I do not recall."

I bet that if anyone is second-guessing what happened it is the guide, and the father. When things happen in a fraction of a second, decisions have to be made for the better or worse. To shoot or not to shoot...damned if you do and damned if you don't.

The report above seems believable and what would be found to help the next time if the guide and father were grilled under the spotlight, whether in court or otherwise?

This sort of thing happens all the time, except usually the hunters/tourists get out alive. And then sometimes they don't.

Will, you'd be good defense counsel.

As for what can be learned? How about how close the elephant was when the guide first saw that he was in musth? How close was the bull at each stage of his attack, including when the guide shouted at him and fired the warning shot?

I tend to agree with you that if it's so late in the game that you're thinking of firing a warning shot then it's too damned late for a warning shot. I would like to know what light the facts of this incident throw on that line of thinking.

Also, personally, I would throw the rule book out when dealing with a bull in musth - 10 yards, warning shot and all. Maybe in this case, there was simply no time between the discovery and the fatal charge, I don't know.

Further, I have to wonder why one would ever fire a warning shot without time to follow up with one between the eyes? Much remains unsaid about that.

As I have said, one can't be an armchair quarterback, or second-guess (which is the same thing), or most importantly, learn anything, without the facts.

My motives aren't to blame or castigate or convict anyone. My motives are selfish. I intend to hunt more elephant and would sort of like to avoid this kind of thing.

Not to steal a tale of Buzz Charlton's, but I guess I will steal it anyway....

He told me that one time he was charged by a cow and gave it the warning shot over its head, but it kept on coming. Unfortunately he miscalculated how fast an elephant could cover the ground and before he could reload the cow reached him and sent him flying.

Fortunately the cow knocked him over the creek bank he was standing on, down into the dry creek bed. Luckily he was then out of the line of sight of the cow, and eventually she turned around and departed.

To wonder why the Guide didn't have time to shoot again...maybe not enough time or maybe he was lucky to even get off the first shot. Maybe he was using a single-shot rifle.

Anyway, the daughter and mother getting killed is terrible. He should have dropped the sucker while he had the chance, but it is easier said then done.

And no scholarship fund, or rehab these days, is going to hide what happened or change anything. You pay your money and you take your chances.

Folks,

Let me beat this to death a litte more. The guide possibly is the only one alive that knows what actually happened. The Father who was running for his life probably only knows part of the story. Once again none of us was there so we don't know what transpired. Also I think particularly for us including myself who have never stood for a determined elephant charge we can't say what we would have done in the guide's situation. I think any implication that the guide did not do his job by us here on AR is just speculation and therefore of litte value.

Mark

How close was the elephant? Obviously too close.

Did the warning shot work? Obviously not.

Where any of us there? Nope.

Yet some continue to ask for feet and inches about an incident that took two lives.

They refer to the rumors and want to know what there are rumors about? Like that is really going to help?

What can we learn from it? That's relatively easy-- Saeed said it, and I paraphrase, they are wild animals. A lot of us play with them. Some not successfully. And I'm not being flip, my heart goes out to the families.

I may be the FNG around here but me thinks that some of us may be looking for the second shooter behind the green knoll.

quote:

Originally posted by knucklehead:

Where [sic] any of us there? Nope.

Thanks for the brilliant insight. That explains it all. No further questions, your honor.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:

Once again none of us was there so we don't know what transpired.

Again, Mark, you are correct. But again, that does not mean we should not ask any questions about it.

Too many people are too afraid to do that. I don't know why. After all, the facts may not set you free, but knowledge is power.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

You pay your money and you take your chances.

Yes, indeed. And it is better when taking such chances to be carrying your own rifle.

After we had been mock charged three times to within about ten yards by a very big, but small tusked, bull in the Caprivi Strip, my wife, who was right there with us, asked Vaughan Fulton, Martin, the Salambala game scout, and yours truly how we could possibly stop him if he really wanted to kill us.

We just sort of looked at each other for a while, and I made a joke, but none of us really knew if we could have stopped that elephant, and none of us will ever find out until it happens. Upon reflection, however, I later remarked that I was pretty sure that 1,100 grains of headache, properly applied, would have done the trick.

Good night, Gracie!

All the stories on here, on this thread, are about hunting safaris, usually after elephant.

There is a vast difference to a foot game viewing safari. One expects to shoot an elephant on a hunting safari. It is a thing of last resort on a game viewing safari.

Also how many times have I read the "oohs and aahs" of how the PH stopped the charging elephant by shouting at it, shooting over its head, shooting it through the ear etc.

This is an example of different "oohs and aahs" when the charge wasn't stopped and people were killed.

It is certain the PH or guide in this example should have shot the elephant instead of trying a warning shot. But hindsight makes everyone a brilliant expert. Speculation is also very easy but without any more facts that is all it is going to be.

It appears the people actually there have reconciled what happened which tells me something. And even though the PH was right in harms way he will have to live with his mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
There is a vast difference to a foot game viewing safari. One expects to shoot an elephant on a hunting safari. It is a thing of last resort on a game viewing safari.

Yes, but the issue is shooting a charging elephant. How lucky is the hunter who gets to shoot the elephant he is hunting while it is charging? The time and trouble involved, and so the reluctance, in shooting an elephant you are NOT HUNTING even if you are elephant hunting is the same as shooting an elephant you are not hunting even if you are sightseeing.

JPK

What I make of this is that the guide felt over confident of his ability to shoot and of his chances of being attacked.I don't think that was a warning shot but an attempt to kill the ele.He missed and did not have a second round with him.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
There is a vast difference to a foot game viewing safari. One expects to shoot an elephant on a hunting safari. It is a thing of last resort on a game viewing safari.

Yes, but the issue is shooting a charging elephant. How lucky is the hunter who gets to shoot the elephant he is hunting while it is charging? The time and trouble involved, and so the reluctance, in shooting an elephant you are NOT HUNTING even if you are elephant hunting is the same as shooting an elephant you are not hunting even if you are sightseeing.

JPK

But the speculation here is not how to drop a charging elephant, it is second guessing why this particular elephant got to the PH and the tourists.

It is a last resort to shoot the animal. I imagine the PH would have been asked if it turned out differently by the authorities "Did you try to warn the elephant off? Shout, shoot a warning shot, etc?" Maybe Ganyana or another Zimbabwean could advise.



Personally on my hunt last year, I received a phone call from the Aussie agent for the outfitters, the day before I flew out, and he said, "if you ever feel in danger from elephants, just shoot, don't hesitate". As he had a few close calls himself.

I think everyone here would agree the warning shot should have been a killing shot. Hindsight makes us all brilliant.

I like facts, compared to endless speculation.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
There is a vast difference to a foot game viewing safari. One expects to shoot an elephant on a hunting safari. It is a thing of last resort on a game viewing safari.

Yes, but the issue is shooting a charging elephant. How lucky is the hunter who gets to shoot the elephant he is hunting while it is charging? The time and trouble involved, and so the reluctance, in shooting an elephant you are NOT HUNTING even if you are elephant hunting is the same as shooting an elephant you are not hunting even if you are sightseeing.

JPK

That is exactly right. Avoiding the killing of a non-trophy, but threatening and mock charging elephant, when hunting, presents exactly the same problems as facing one in the game-viewing context.

Except that when hunting, there will be at least one more rifle on the job.

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

I think everyone here would agree the warning shot should have been a killing shot. Hindsight makes us all brilliant.

I like facts, compared to endless speculation.

Wrong. You are engaging in the rankest kind of second guessing and speculation.

Based on the facts we have been given, there is no way in hell that you or anyone else can say that the guide should not have fired the warning shot.

Based on the story reported thus far, no one can know how close the elephant was to the guide and his party when the warning shot was taken. No one can know whether the guide even had a clear shot at the elephant when he fired the warning shot. No one can know whether his view of the elephant was blocked by obstructions - such as the termite mound or a tree. I seem to remember Ganyana posting in the first thread on this subject that the elephant may have come at the guide directly over and through the termite mound and may have been on top of him before he had an opportunity to react.

None of us can know whether the guide had any options other than to fire a warning shot. It could be that he had to make the best he could of a bad, or even hopeless, situation, and in desperation, fire a shot as near as he could to the charging elephant to try to keep him at bay. As I have said more than a few times, we simply don't know. Some of us have asked the right questions, but we don't have the answers and probably won't get them.

All we know for sure is that the warning shot didn't work as intended. I have not said, and will not say, that the guide did anything wrong, or should have done anything differently - not based on the facts presented thus far. And IMHO no one else should either.

quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:

I think everyone here would agree the warning shot should have been a killing shot. Hindsight makes us all brilliant.

I like facts, compared to endless speculation.

Wrong. You are engaging in the rankest kind of second guessing and speculation.

Based on the facts we have been given, there is no way in hell that you or anyone else can say that the guide should not have fired the warning shot.

Based on the story reported thus far, no one can know how close the elephant was to the guide and his party when the warning shot was taken. No one can know whether the guide even had a clear shot at the elephant when he fired the warning shot. No one can know whether his view of the elephant was blocked by obstructions - such as the termite mound or a tree. I seem to remember Ganyana posting in the first thread on this subject that the elephant may have come at the guide directly over and through the termite mound and may have been on top of him before he had an opportunity to react.

None of us can know whether the guide had any options other than to fire a warning shot. It could be that he had to make the best he could of a bad, or even hopeless, situation, and in desperation, fire a shot as near as he could to the charging elephant to try to keep him at bay. As I have said more than a few times, we simply don't know. Some of us have asked the right questions, but we don't have the answers and probably won't get them.

All we know for sure is that the warning shot didn't work as intended. I have not said, and will not say, that the guide did anything wrong, or should have done anything differently - not based on the facts presented thus far. And IMHO no one else should either.

"No one can know" .... "No one can know whether" .... "None of us can know" .....

Then why all the speculative questions? Irrespective of this statement:
"I have not said, and will not say, that the guide did anything wrong, or should have done anything differently - not based on the facts presented thus far."

Your questions have been alluding to EXACTLY the opposite.

So please direct your "rankest" comments to the mirror.