About a year ago Ganyana published an article in African Hunter magazine where he exposed his theory that elephants are knocked out cold only when the brain is pierced by a bullet but the bullet does not hit a or destroy a critical portion of the brain. I have been thinking about that as related to my own experiences on head shots on elephant. I have used the frontal brain shot on 9 elephants and my opinions are based on those experiences. I know that is a small sample size but please humor me.

A bullet that hits frontally and goes just over the top of the brain or just creases the top of the brain will knock the elephant down but he will quickly get to his feet and bugger off and unless you can get a heart/lung shot in before he disappears my mean a wounded and lost animal. If it is more than a an inch or two over the brain the ele will real back, shake his head and disappear in a flash. A bullet that is centrally placed will penetrate to the rear of the brain and destroy the rear portion of the brain leading to instant death. The back legs will fold first, the head will go up and back and then the front legs will collapse. A bullet that hits at the right height but is 2 to 3 inches to the right or left of center will pierce the frontal lateral lobes of the brain since the brain is 6 to 8 inches wide. In my experience this knocks the elephant down, but the front legs collapse first. Most of the time the elephant loses control of its legs and can not get up. A finisher shot is usually then required to kill the animal. Often you will see a huge gush of blood from the ear hole on the side of the bullet hit. I have had several do this. If the bullet has sufficient penetration a low hit that is centrally placed will hit the spinal cord also causing instant death.

I look forward to comments on these thoughts from experienced elephant hunters esp. those with a much greater experience on frontal shots than mine.

465H&H

Here is Ganyana's article.

http://accuratereloading.com/nick/AHPDF/K.O.Ele.pdf

It is implied that Ganyana has enough data to draw these conclusions. That I do not know.

I have dissected only a couple skulls as it is quite an effort without destroying the data that is being sought.

I have experienced or witnessed pretty much every reaction that Ganyana relates. But I do not have any data to try to explain why and therefore Ganyana conclusions are more valid than any I would draw.

What I would disagree with is the notion that any elephant that is knocked down, and it knocked out or essentially paralyzed for an extended period of time but not dead, is that only the front of the brain (frontal lope) was pierced. On these shots that I have experienced the bullet was found behind the brain though I do not know their path. But surely if the bullet hit the front part of the brain it would have passed through more than just the front portion of the brain.

Ganyana's conclusions do fly in the face of some information by John Taylor (the KO values), so who do you believe?

And almost every shot is different. In the right place the elephant is dead. In the "wrong" place you can get the whole range of reactions.

Will,

The point is that the elephant brain is much wider through the frontal lobes than the rear lobes. A bullet can pass through the frontal lobes and miss the rear lobes.

465H&H

A bullet close to the brain is a miss IMO, a bullet that creases the brain will, at least most of the time I think, knock the elephant out or at least down. A bullet IN the brain normally kills him..

It will forever be argueable as there is no correct answer, each instance can veri to one degree or another...

I saw a man with his whole head blown off with a .44 magnum, His brain showed damage and was sorta lying on his shoulder.. he was still breathing when the ambulance folks got there and he lived to testify against his shooters, he had a stutter and lost any eye, and the whole top of his head/skull was a silver plate.. I decided that only God can make those calls, not man.

Have shot only 3 Elephants so puts me in the bottom rung of the ladder. One (the first) was a frontal brain shot. Range approximately 20/25yds Load was a 375 H&H with 300gr Woodleigh. I THINK I shot low. The rear legs immediately buckled and Ele literally sat down. But as if with a spring was right back up and spining around to run. Second round was Heart/lung but again probably low. Found blood but elephant got back across into an area we didn't have permission to enter. Was found later dead. I remember plainly the elation I had when he went down on his ass thinking they actually do have the rear legs fold first as all the books say. How wrong I was. Last time I took a brain shot period. The next two were heart/lung. I must have been close to something as It was a 375 and he did sit down. You make the decision and shoot and learn.

Hi there, I am afraid that I do not have any elephant hunting experience, but after reading of incidents where elephants take really heavy callibre shots in the head, close to the brain, only to run off, does leave a few questions unanswered about knock-down power. I have also heard of people with bullets embedded in their brain that have survived, and am sure that there must be several cases of this happening going through records, stuff that is hard to explain! I remember hearing somewhere about SWAT-type anti-terrorist specialists being taught to shoot for either the brain-stem (Centre brain) or the cerebellum (hind part), which controls muscular activity and no mention of the front part of the brain, but I have no experience there either. Humans, although not elephants, would have relatively similar anatomy and similar reactions to such shots I would guess.

I would probably agree with Ganyana's scientific methods, he, having shot many head of game, keeping things such as bullet constuction similar (I would guess) and varying velocity and callibre, you can probably start to draw conclusions after many shots on what effects diffent callibres have on game with specific bullet placements, etc. I haven't seen his data myself, but considering that his sample size of elephants shot with the 9.3 and the Lott was 500, say maybe 250 each, that is a decent enough sample size, you shouldnt have to worry about having to use non-parametric statistics when analysing, etc. what I did find very interesting though was, the 9.3 and Lott, both relatively similar velocity cartridges and how they can cause such differences on a brain-shots! I agree with Ray and Will, if you miss the brain, it is a miss, and there are probably many variables that can and do result in the differences in reactions to such shots. Explaining them can be quite difficult though. I would really like to hear more from what other experienced hunters and PH's have experienced and their thoughts.

465H&H am I incorrect in thinking that if you are going to miss on a brain shot, then miss low?
Peter.

On Buzz Charlton DVD he says "If in doubt come down" if the bullet does go under the brain it may hit the spine

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
465H&H am I incorrect in thinking that if you are going to miss on a brain shot, then miss low?
Peter.

That has been the advice of many experienced elephant hunters for over 100 years.

465H&H

I have brain shot - or at least tried - eleven elephants, ten frontal, one side. Two bulls, frontal attempts, seven tuskless cows frontal attempts, one tusked cow frontal attempt and one tuskless side brain attempt.

One elephant, a tuskless cow, I killed with a shot that went about an inch or so high of the brain. The elephant froze on the shot and then trembled and fell, not moving a twitch after. We cut the head open and the bullet path was clear. A tuskless shot on Buzz'd DVD, which Buzz says in the DVD was shot too high, but died, had the same freeze/shutter/drop dead reaction.

All of the cows I've shot frontally, except one, that weren't killed outright dropped to the shot and stayed there, at least long enough for a second shot into the spine or head. Several of these showed eye reaction to the touch of the gun barrel and got finishers.

The one that didn't drop was charging and both my first and second shots were too low. The first stopped her cold and rocked her to the core, but she stayed on her feet. The second, adjacent to the first also rocked her but she kept her feet and turned to leave.

I think Ganyana is too conservative regarding knock out/knock down, at least on cows. I've shot all with a 458wm, two with 500gr Woodleighs at 2050fps, some others with 500gr Woodleighs at 2135fps and the rest with North Fork 450gr flat nose solids at 2190fps. All of these exit on side brain shots and all penetrate well beyond the brain on frontal shots. The North Forks have pentrated enough to exit between the should blades.

When it comes to bulls, I think the margin for knocking them down or out is much smaller. I do think there is merit to the idea that an elephant, especially a bull may not be killed 100% of the time with a shot that only just creases or stops in the frontal area. But I think that the reaction would be to drop allowing enough time to make a successful insurance shot.

Also. I think that the flat nose solids may be better at scambling things from hydrostatc shock. In any event they sure penetrate alot better than the round noses.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
465H&H am I incorrect in thinking that if you are going to miss on a brain shot, then miss low?
Peter.

I agree with that.

Far be it for me to gainsay the accumulated experience and wisdom of our esteemed members, and especially ganyama, but I would like to make a few points. Let me first state that my total experience of elly is two, of which i shot only one.
Being a surgeon, i do know a little bit about brain anatomy in humans, and mammalian brains are quite similar in their organization. So what I state re human brain function probably holds true for loxodonta africanus!
First, I do agree with all who state that the hind brain, if hit, causes instantaneous death;this is true also of the midbrain. Reason? the centers that control respiration, heartbeat, and consciousness are located in the hindbrain. It is also true that the frontal lobes, if pierced, will not cause immediate death, because they are related to control of emotion. BUT the chances of bleeding causing brain compression and death by stroke eventually (minutes to hours) are very high. Finally, just behind the frontal lobes is a part of the forebrain that controls motor functions; if hit, the subject will be immediately paralyzed in one or more extremeties on ONE side of the body, ie have a major stroke in human terms
The last point i would like to make is that ganyamas article ignores the phenomenon known as concussion; we have all experienced this at one time or another; The brain is a soft, jelly like organ that floats in a enclosed cavity, the cranium. (True, in elephants, the cranial cavity is surrounded by spongy bone, but these are to some extent filled with fluid which does transmit shock waves) A blow to the head causes the brain to temporarily suspend its function. (in technical terms, we say that the neurons depolarize) The person, and I would presume, the elephant, would lose cosciousness if concussed. I agree with ganyama that a bullet actually paasing through the brain at high velocity, even the forebrain, would probably transmit enough mechanical shock to the brain to cause concussion; the elephant then may recover consciousness, just as a boxer loses consciousness after a heavy blow.
I do not know enough about fluid mechanics to tell if an energetic bullet passing NEAR the brain would transfer enough shock to cause concussion;
Bullet stabilization in tissue and its effect on penetration is probably the most overlooked point to be made re terminal ballistics. The spin required to stabilize a bullet in tissue is MUCH greater, by several orders of magnitude, than that required in air. "Shoulder stabilization" is the mechanism by which bullets with a wide, flat meplat and a relatively short length, maintain a straight path through tissue. I also know of at least one incident witnessed by my PH in which a 300grain 375 round nose solid failed to penetrate to the brain of a bull elly, on a frontal brain shot.
For what its worth (very little, i suspect) I would use a 416 or larger, with a flat meplat solid at a velocity >2300 fps, and be confident of decent frontal penetration.
Enough theorizing! i am now ready to take my licks!

A few snap shots from the video of my one and only elephant:

She sees me and just begins to move a leg forward



The shot



Going down

quote:

Originally posted by Will:


Ganyana's conclusions do fly in the face of some information by John Taylor (the KO values), so who do you believe?

Ain't John Taylor the same raconteur who claimed to have "lined up" seven eland and killed them all with one .375 H&H bullet?

John Taylor did all of his writing before Al Gore invented the internet. Back then "factual observations" could not be easily refuted.

Ann:

Would that by chance be the elephant on the Buzz Charlton DVD where the elephant was shot low in the trunk as she had her head up? If so, well done! If not, well done!

Yes, that is the one.

I think that Indlovu is quite right about concussion and was thinking about it, and that would go somewhere to explaining faster knock-down times for heavier callibres. Just like boxers, although lighter weight divisions may be faster (and hit really hard), the bigger, (not always) slower heavyweights have more momentum and are more likely to knock you out with one punch than a lighter boxer. That would maybe explain the 9.3 and the Lott situation differences on ellies.

Concussion is caused by your brain bashing around your skull, so does a solid bullet cause enough hydrostatic shock to knock out a bull ellie and is it based on callibre and/or is it proximity to the brain I wonder?

I can understand the theory too that the .458 Lott is more effective as a stopping round than the Win mag, because it probably retains enough energy and velocity to cause hydrostatic shock and concussion deep inside an ellie skull/brain, where a win mag would not have as much velocity and shock-effect.

Please do excuse me 465H&H for being slightly off topic again, but I would also like to know how hunters have fared with forward quartering and slightly off centre brain shots. In these cases, I believe that the bullet is very likely to hit a tusk-base before reaching the brain. Can a normal .458 win load regularly go through a tusk base and still reach the hind-brain of a large ellie bull? How many times have people successfully brain shot elephant after going through a tusk/tusk base?

Would I be right in thinking that aiming low as a safety margin, going for breaking the neck can only be done with a really powerful, penetrative cartridge, say .416 at least?

quote:

Would I be right in thinking that aiming low as a safety margin, going for breaking the neck can only be done with a really powerful, penetrative cartridge, say .416 at least?

If my 458's are passing through and exiting between the shoulders, maybe three feet behind the brain, penetration isn't the issue for spine shots, even from the front. If penetration isn't the issue, the velocity isn't either since penetration is derived from velocity. But then, bullet shape has a lot to do with penetration.

Both Woodleighs and NF's exit on side shots on cows, but the NF's will exit on bulls to. I'm reasonably certain.

From exchanges with members who shoot Lotts, the penetration of the flat nose North Forks from the 458wm equals or exceeds Lott penetration with round nose solids. This would be in line with my penetration test of my 458wm with NF's at 2190, which our penetrated 470 500gr Woodleigh solids at 2250fps.

So far as tusk bases, I'm not sure. It takes quite an angle to involve them, FYI. I would bet my life on the NF's doing the job, and I have.

JPK

I have shot only 1 elephant but it was, according to the PH's involved, an unusual reaction. The shot was at 30 meters and slightly quartering to me. The shot caused the tuskless cow to immediately collapse in the rear legs, her trunk flew straight up and she went down immediately. The PH said she was dead but then her legs began to move as she lay on her side. I put several more shots into her and she never regained her feet although she did pick up her head about 20 seconds after she was shot initially.

When we traced the first shot it had passed just slightly in front of the brain but did not hit the brain. It had a complete pass through as did at least one of the body shots. The PH was more than a little surprised at her brain shot reaction without the brain being touched.

The load was a 458 grain brass solid flat point at about 1950 fps from a .50 Alaskan levergun. I have reported all of this before but still find it curious. The other PH's watched the video in camp and all of them said upon watching her reaction that she was dead...when in fact, she was not. The comment was made that my elephant did not bother to watch Buzz's DVD and so she reacted strangely.

Here is the one bullet that was recovered from the finishing shot which passed from the top of her head all the way to her throat.

Yukon,

That is a serious bullet!

But we ALL know that you can't kill elephants with lever guns..

It helps to be able to shoot unlike the other sloppy SOB who wounded everything he shot at with his .50 AK in Zim last year. Of course according to him it was the PH's fault.

Nice work and good shooting by the way.

Thanks SS. It was NOT an easy shot...middle of 21 elephant in grass over our heads, sun in my face and her in the dark shade...it could have been a bit better but I'll take it. She went down fast and never regained her feet and no one shot but me. The PH still talks about that weird tuskless that dropped brain shot without being brained. It will be on Buzz's next DVD.

I don't remember another guy with a 50 AK in Zim. Remind me of the details? To my knowledge (we checked with a lot of people who would know), this was the first elephant with that caliber and definitely with that bullet. Doesn't really matter but I don't know who you're talking about?

Gentlemen. My comments on brain shots on ele's is based on my experiences as a parks ecologist on the major ele culls in the late 80's and early 90's. My job was to film the culls, and then dissect each adult or sub adult animal and collect data. Art Alphin from A square was along quite often developing his monolithic bullets - He is a mean man with a chain saw on skulls! Almost all the ele shot on those culls were taken with brain shots.

There is a world of difference between bulls and cows. The honeycomb structure of a cows skull is much denser and there is more liquid lining the bone. They crumple much more readily than a bull to similar marginal shots.

Art, Mike La Grange and Clem Coetsee spent hours going over the films talking about reaction times - how quickly each animal went down when hit in a particular spot with a particular caliber. I mostly sat on the sidelines and leaned alot.

over 90% of the animals taken on the culls were cows, sub adults and calves and arround 80% were shot with 30-06 (Mike la Grange) or 7.62x54R (Clem). Ken Worsley used a .458 Win for all his shooting and the limited footage from those culls is, in fact, more useful than most of that from the big guys.

Both Clem and Mike initiated the culls with a heavy rifle (.465 H&H and .460 A square short). The Matriach and a couple of the lead cows need to go down in the first few seconds and there is no time for follow up shots. Once the big cows were down they then switched to something lighter and faster shooting to finish the job.

Unfortunately we have only got footage of arround 300 mature bulls being shot and getting a big enough sample size for each category is difficult. Have arround 20 "near brain" misses for .458 and .375 and about a dozen for .470, .404. The Flankers on the culls who were taking the bulls made a fair number of misstakes as they were the guys still "learning".

Ganyana, email in your box about the article from me.

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:
Ganyana, email in your box about the article from me.

?????

Yukon -

If you mean for me/African Hunter Magazine, we are having the usual African email troubles. Please send all mail with a read reciept - then you will know we got it.

quote:

Originally posted by yukon delta:


I don't remember another guy with a 50 AK in Zim. Remind me of the details? To my knowledge (we checked with a lot of people who would know), this was the first elephant with that caliber and definitely with that bullet. Doesn't really matter but I don't know who you're talking about?

Yukon,

Rich Lucibella hunted with Makore in Zim in 06 with his .50 AK. He was having a bad ten hair days as far as I could tell from his posts. He wounded just about everything he shot at with his Marlin. he did not hunt elephant. He hunted buff and some plains game.

He actually posted it on his web site www.thefiringline.com and it was linked over here.

There is an old skull of an adult ellie bull (minus tusks!) in the Rhodes University Zoology Department in South Africa, that can not speak, but reveals some interesting information. On careful examination it shows some history into it's (highly likely) demise that no-body I know has noticed or seems to know about or seems interested in.

I only noticed these tell-tale signs on close examination, something most people who are not interested in hunting and such would easily miss. If I remember correctly, there was an exit hole (I think an exit) in at the back right hand side of the skull, and I remember, lining up angles I think I noticed an entry point somethere near the right eye, but would have been way too high to hit the brain as it was exiting about 3 inches below the top of the skull (possibly a frontal shot?).

Just above the right tusk-base there is a definate entry point of most likely a .375 calibre projectile (roughly), most likey a soft-point, that failed spectacularly, it blew a huge chunk of bone off the inner-side of the bottom bulge of skull (from where the the tusks go), but did not penetrate any further than a 5 inches of bone. On the left hand side of the skull there were abut 2 or 3 broadside .30 cal bullet holes (that showed no signs of exit) that would have been more or less in line with the brain, most likey the killing shots.

I have always wondered where this ellie came from. It would most likely be an Addo or Knysna ellie I would think (local), but it shows that although you may have never met the animal, you can find out some interesting history and info that would otherwise go un-noticed by so many people, even students! There is also amongst others a skull of a brown-hyena in the collection that has a farmer's imprint on it too, just behind and below the eyes, not a great brain-shot but it must have worked!

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Yukon,

That is a serious bullet!

But we ALL know that you can't kill elephants with lever guns..

It helps to be able to shoot unlike the other sloppy SOB who wounded everything he shot at with his .50 AK in Zim last year. Of course according to him it was the PH's fault.

Nice work and good shooting by the way.

That is a serious cartridge, and there is nothing wrong with a lever action rifle! The porblem I have with their use is the pipsqueek cartridges they are ususlly chambered for, being used on very large tough game animals, not the rifle! Because a rifle barrel has a big hole on the muzzle, doesn't make it a proper rifle for big nasties! The 50AK, loaded with some hot loads, and useing a proper bullet is a factor, no matter what type of rifle it is chambered in!