Gents,

Just read Richard Harland’s excellent memoirs and Ndlovu as well as Boddington’s update of his book discussiog Safari Rifles.

Both report that in some cases rounds of as large as 470NE and 500NE SOMETIMES do not penetrate on frontal brain shots on large bull elephant. Harland gives an example of bullets not penetrating the thick bone at behind the root of the tusk.

Boddington notes that some Bots PHs have went from double rifle to 450 cal bolt rifles with higher velocity using very stout solids for this reason.

What do you all think about this? Is a velocity higher than 2150 needed to guarantee adequate penetration in all circumstances? If so what is the minimum bullet weight, caliber and velocity necessary. For example would a 400gr 416 bullet at 2400 give better penetration under the worst of circumstances than a 500gr 470 at 2150?

Brett

Buy my book! It explains the relative penetration of different calibers and velocoities for solids.

Nothing is guaranteed to penetrate a big bulls head from any angle but one of the most recently maligned caliber here on AR, the 416's , will out penetrate the 470 all else being equal.

Will,

I've read the theory that penetration increases with smaller diameter and higher velocity, both within reason.

Given actual experience is 416 2400 the sweet spot or is 450 2300-2400 or something else?

Brett

Sweet spot is a 500 grain solid .458 caliber bullet at 1530 fps from a .45/70 Guide Gun.

The Bolt of Thor

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I think we should cut the velocity on those 45-70s to 100 fps so we don't get bullet deformation or fracture cast bullets. Upside, is now we don't need to carry a rifle, we can just throw them lol



Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
Sweet spot is a 500 grain solid .458 caliber bullet at 1530 fps from a .45/70 Guide Gun.

The Bolt of Thor

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Judge, you do have a sence humor!

Another tack would be a 17 Remington pushing a 50 grain monolithic solid at 4250 fps.
This is a variation of the old needle at the speed of light theory.LOL

and as important is that the bullet leads a straight path though the bone

Equally imp0ortant is that the bullet have enough momentum to stop the elephants charge if the bullet fails to penetrate far enough to reach the brain or the bullet has enough penetration but misses the brain.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by eyedoc:
Another tack would be a 17 Remington pushing a 50 grain monolithic solid at 4250 fps.
This is a variation of the old needle at the speed of light theory.LOL

this why the natives use .223 Ar-15 to poach or cull with

I have used both a .458 Win Mag with 500 grain bullets at 2170 fps and a .500 NE with 570 grain bullets at 2100. I have seen how both work on elephant and the .500 is much, much more effective. I am more interested in the elephant dropping where it stands than whether the bullet penetrated umpteen feet.

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
Gents,

Just read Richard Harland’s excellent memoirs and Ndlovu as well as Boddington’s update of his book discussiog Safari Rifles.

Both report that in some cases rounds of as large as 470NE and 500NE SOMETIMES do not penetrate on frontal brain shots on large bull elephant. Harland gives an example of bullets not penetrating the thick bone at behind the root of the tusk.

Boddington notes that some Bots PHs have went from double rifle to 450 cal bolt rifles with higher velocity using very stout solids for this reason.

What do you all think about this? Is a velocity higher than 2150 needed to guarantee adequate penetration in all circumstances? If so what is the minimum bullet weight, caliber and velocity necessary. For example would a 400gr 416 bullet at 2400 give better penetration under the worst of circumstances than a 500gr 470 at 2150?

Brett

Like Will said, there is nothing that will gaurantee penetration through some of the heavy bone, or through the tusks either. I've managed to hit a tusk socket twice (with the tusk still in it, stupidly, on insurance shots) and neither bullet would have reached the brain had it needed too. The same bullets with the same loads have provided through and through penetration on broadside shots and "always" fully penetrate a bull's skull when they don't encounter that heavy bone and ivory or the zygomatic arch.

A reasonable comparison can be made when comparing same shape, equal sectional density bullets but different weight and calibre bullets. The faster bullet, assuming no deformation, will provide deeper penetration given the same poi, etc... but equal speed will produce equal penetration, in theory. Another take on this is that given the same bullets, same calibre, weight, shape, etc, the one with the greater energy will penetrate further, assuming no deformations, etc.

But there are ways to make a slower bullet, or even a lighter bullet with less energy, equal or exceed a faster bullet's penetration. The primary ways are weight, ie sectional density, and shape. Shape is, imo, the easier route. Large meplat flat nose solids are the ticket for penetration.

In my own experience, same calibre, a lighter and somewhat faster flat nose solid, which has less energy will significantly out penetrate a heavier and somewhat slower bullet with greater energy. (.458", speed differential 65fps, weight differential 50grs.)

Also in my experience, a roughly equal section density flat nose at about 250-300fps less speed, but more energy, will significantly out penetrate a faster, lighter, smaller diameter but ~equal SD round nose. (Here 300gr 375H&H at ~ 2475 vs, 450gr .458" at ~2200fps.) Becasue the 375H&H 300gr round nose solid at ~2500fps is a renowned penetrator, as is the 416Rem/Rigby, etc 400gr round nose solid at 2300fps, I think these results are very significant.

Too me, and my reasoning isn't too far from 465H&H's, the answer is to go with the stopping rifle, at the velocities you and it can shoot, but to use the flat nose solids to ensure optimum penetration potential. Best of both worlds.

JPK

John,

It seems getting through the tusk socket is the issue. Any ideas what might do the trick?
How 'bout a Lott with 500gr GS FNS?

I ask because I plan to eventually do a DYI ele hunt through Cam. With no PH back-up I want to be prepared for anything. Wondering if I would.be better off leaving my 470 at home...

Brett

Brett!

There is a simple answer and that is to avoid hitting the tusk socket.

465H&H

.500/.416 with a 410 grain Woodleigh solid!

I am certainly no expert, but I believe in big, heavy bullets driven fast. I know first hand that they work very well on elephant.

My choice of rifle is a bolt action .500 A-Square driving 570 or 600 grain bullets at velocities well in excess of those achievable with the .500 Nitro Express.

Last year I used this rifle loaded with 570 grain Barnes Banded Flat Nose Solids at 2,500 fps to take my Selous elephant. My first shot broke the elephant's spine just behind the head and gave complete penetration.

Of the two insurance shots that I fired into his body, the one we recovered had penetrated over six feet of bone and muscle. We couldn't find the other one.

In the same rifle, I had previously used the Woodleigh 600 grain steel jacketed solid at 2,300 fps on a Caprivi elephant. The Woodleigh reached the brain/spine on a frontal shot - I know that because the elephant dropped to the shot. But we did not recover the bullet.

Insurance shots to the side of the head and broadside, directly behind the shoulder, did not give complete penetration.

That's why I have increased the velocity to 2,500 fps and switched to the Barnes monolithic solid. I am very happy with that combination.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:I've managed to hit a tusk socket twice (with the tusk still in it, stupidly, on insurance shots) and neither bullet would have reached the brain had it needed too.

John, what bullets were these?

Now I know why the 500/416 was invented - for Botswana's elephants. Them thick in the head.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Brett!

There is a simple answer and that is to avoid hitting the tusk socket.

465H&H

This is really the only right answer!

If you manage to hit the tusk socket, it wasn't a frontal brain shot. It wasn't a side brain shot either. You're not going to get squashed by this elephant at this angle, he would have to turn to you for that, and then there is no need to shoot through the tusk socket to stop him.

Better to either wait until he turns his head toward you or away from you offering a frontal or a side brain shot respectively. Or he moves, offerening a tusk socket free shot. Or you move one way or another to get the frontal or side shot.

MR,

Not to rain on your BIG bore parade, and you know I favor more rather than less, but I've gotten measured five to six feet of penetration several times (and probably would have more often but the bullets exited) with the lowly 458wm shooting North Fork 450gr flat nose solids at ~2200fps. As an example, this past November I "brained" a bull in Chewore South (bullet actually broke the ball joint at the head/neck junction) and as his hind legs collapsed and his head and trunk went up I shot him in low center of the chest. The bullet exited between his shoulder blades. I didn't measure the penetration on that one, but it had to be at least four and half or five feet before exit.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:I've managed to hit a tusk socket twice (with the tusk still in it, stupidly, on insurance shots) and neither bullet would have reached the brain had it needed too.

John, what bullets were these?

Bill,

One was a .458" 500gr Woodleigh at 2145fps, the other was a .458" 450gr North Fork flat nose.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Brett:
John,

It seems getting through the tusk socket is the issue. Any ideas what might do the trick?
How 'bout a Lott with 500gr GS FNS?

I ask because I plan to eventually do a DYI ele hunt through Cam. With no PH back-up I want to be prepared for anything. Wondering if I would.be better off leaving my 470 at home...

Brett

Brett,

I am geussing that Cam = Camaroon. That would be the significantly smaller forest (jungle) eles. The range is supposed to be very close and the bush very thick. Also, from what I've read the eles are testy and aggressive.

I don't think doing anything is necessary, but the GS Cutoms or North Forks will add to penetration. Also Rich Tabor loads his Kreighoff 470 to 2250fps, it shoots well at elephant distances. If I were going elephant hunting alone, I would want a double rifle for sure. Maybe do what Rich is doing but use the 500gr North Forks or the 500gr GS Customs. Also I think in the past Searcy loaded his 470 to 2200fps, and I've heard that his guns shoot well loaded fast too.

What make is your 470?

JPK

Higher than the 2150 fps nominal velocity can't hurt anything. I was shooting 2200 fps in my Krieghoff 470 and there was no difference in grouping. What difference it really made is tough to tell. When I was shooting 2300 fps in a Lott, I couldn't really tell any difference in penetration.

Will,

This is not apples to apples, but compared to my .458" 500gr Woodleighs running 2145fps Rich's .474" 500gr Woodleighs at 2250fps provided about 4-6" more penetration in dead elephant heads. Using 5", that is about 13-14% more penetration.

I would imagine the difference between a .474" Woodleigh, or whatever, at , say, 2145fps, and the same bullets at 2250fps would be greater than the difference between my bullet at 2145fps and Rich's at 2250fps if only because my bullet should penetrate further than a .474" bullet at the same speed.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Brett,

I am geussing that Cam = Camaroon.

I believe it is Cam Grieg, who helps with self-guided hunts in -- you guessed it -- Cameroon.

He goes by camshaft here. Here is more on the hunts.

John,

Yep Camaroon. There are savanah ele up north and that's what I'm interested in.

I would not take a first shot that would hit the tusk socket. But in a bad situation you never know what angle might be presented. Harland tells of Andrew Dawson and another PH (his partner, name slipps my mind just now) being charged in thick jess by a large bull. Both fired, Andrew's 470 hit the tusk socket and didn't penetrate, other guy missed. That did't stop or turn him. Both fired again, one brained him IIRC and the other lodged in the tusk socket again!

I have used 450gr GSFN at a little over 2200 on a brain shot on a small tuskless cow. Penetration was great as expected. I've also used Woodleigh 500gr RNS on Zambezi bull body and head shots and had nothing to complain about.

That Harland episode just got me thinking about potential problems. Also the relative pros and cons of the instant second shot available from the double vs. the greater nubmer of shots available without reloding from the bolt...

Thanks for all the thoughtfull replies guys. The GSFNS and 500 cal 2500 ideas are both potential solutions.

Brett

Brett,

Maybe do like John Taylor and carry the double while the tracker carries the bolt... That is what I hope to do when, if ever, I have the prospect of hunting for more than one elephant from a herd at a time. My choices are 458wm double and 458 Lott bolt, but loaded with the same wm ammo to avoid any FU's.

JPK

JPK,

Good idea! Of course Taylor had the advantage of a very devoted tracker...

Best regards;
Brett

I would be cautious about using any recently purchased GS Custon flat nosed solids when hunting elephant. Recently, someone posted a picture of some that were recovered from head shots on elephant. They showed a large amount of expansion, even more than we have seen from NF Cup Nosed solids. Mike from NF does not recommend his cup Nosed solid for elephant. In another post Gerard of GS Custom mentioned expansion rates of his solids but I don't remember the context of the post. Hopefully, Gerard wwill jump on here and let us know if he has changed the metal formula for his solids so that they expand more. In the mean time I would be personaly very cautious on using his solids for elephant.

465H&H

In 12 years we have not changed the material or the hardness of material we use for GSC FN solids. Expansion of an FN is dependent on impact speed and the density of what it hits.

Those who believe that a solid should not deform in any way are welcome to their opinion. My position is that it is not the ideal and here is why:

1. All solids, regardless of what they are made of, will deform to some extent. Whether you can see it or not, it is there and measuring will prove it.

540gr FN (500NE) recovered from the ground after an insurance shot on an elephant head.


2. The higher the impact speed and the denser the medium, the more deformation there is.

Even brass solids will deform


3. There comes a point where the forces acting on the bullet will exceed the tensile strength of the material and construction and the bullet will break or deform.

Broken brass solid.


4. If the bullet has bent as a result of tumbling or severe impact has bent the bullet and tumbling resulted, deep, linear penetration goes out the window.

Two brass solids that tumbled. The one on the left hit a hard object on the side of the shank while rotating base forwards. The one on the right may have tumbled after striking the object that deformed the nose, or while the nose was forwards during end over end rotation.


5. Above are examples of uncontrolled deformation and breakage. If deformation and breakage is inevitable with hard bullets, it is better to accept that fact. It is then better to design for control of the deformation, so that after deformation the bullet still performs as required.

None of these solids show evidence of tumbling after impact


6. If deformation happens in such a way that the bullet remains shoulder stabilised (flat meplat), and/or dart stabilised (center of gravity forward of the physical center) and with the ogive and shaft shielded from flow pressure (meplat close to or wider than bullet diameter), the bullet continues straight on during and after deformation. The choice is yours.

Do you choose a bullet that will probably tumble and curve with reduced penetration depth after severe deformation?


Or do you choose a bullet that continues to get the job done by penetrating deep and straight, even after the severest of impact deformation.

GSC FN on left was recovered from an elephant head and the one on the right from the body of a bull elephant. These are 416 caliber 380gr FNs fired at around 2600fps. See the next picture.


Here is the bullet above and the elephant femur it smashed. The bullet continued on and was recovered 36" further into the elephant body. Deformation like this is uncommon and extreme. Despite this, these GSC FNs did not lose the fight with the animal and completed the job that the hunter started.


7. The bottom line is: GSC FN solids have not attracted a single failure report in 12 years. Failures with other brands abound and although the percentage of failures is low, the lowest failure rate is 0% and GSC owns it. Despite the popular theory of what should happen regarding deformation, we see that all bullets deform at some point and that control of the process brings a better chance of sucess than otherwise.

8. Is it coincidence or sound design, that the two solid manufacturers with the best success record, make solids that are both copper and flat nosed?

I've used 500 gr GS solids from 450 Dakota at 2400fps on both elephant and buffalo. Unfortunately, I have no pretty pics to share of the bullets. They were all pass-throughs. On a finishing shot on a down buffalo I hit him on the right shoulder angling to the left hip. We heard a "whirring" sound following the shot. We found that after traversing the buffalo, it had gone through a 6" tree. For all I know it's still going... Inasmuch as I have no pretty pics, I must consider these bullets as complete failures.

We try so hard and then you come up with a failure report.

Gerard:

Thanks for the comments on this topic. I also saw your comments on two threads on the
"Double Rifle" forum as well.

Now if only Yukon Delta can build up his inventory of your fine bullets we will be set!

Thanks,

RCG

Gerard, thank you for your explanation and pictures of recovered bullets.

One of the problems that we have not resolved is a definitive definition of what a soild bullet failure is. Is it whether the animal was or was not killed by the bullet, the bullet bent, the bullet went off course, the bullet deformed, didn't penetrate far enough, or something else? Some would consider the two pictures of severely mushroomed GS solids from the head and femur as failed bullets others would not. Some would consider the Woodleighs that show a minimal amount of lead extruded from the base of the bullet to be a sign that the bullet failed, others not because they kept going in a straight line and penetrated far enough to reach the brain and kill the elephant. Some would consider a bent bullet to mean that the bullet failed, others not if it continued in a straight line and only tumbled in the last few inches of travel. Some have seen FN truncated solids go off course on elephant heads (JPK for one) and others pooh poohed the observation as not showing failure since the elephant was killed. I believe if we say a bullet failed or didn't we need to define what our definition of failure is.

465H&H