quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Matt

Please show me one ( and there may be as I did not check them all) hunt on the auctions that sold for 100% of the value. Cheers Buzz

+1 never seen it. Had a woman buy one of my hunts for $ 800 and then sit smiling at me say " My friend said I could pick up cheap hunts here ..."
PHASA is trying to strong arm SCI into not selling a hunt for under 30% of its value, Im under correction but believe DSC has accepted this but as Ken says too many little unvetted guys are willing to give these hunts away to be auctioned and its flooding the market

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Matt

Please show me one ( and there may be as I did not check them all) hunt on the auctions that sold for 100% of the value. Cheers Buzz

+1 never seen it. Had a woman buy one of my hunts for $ 800 and then sit smiling at me say " My friend said I could pick up cheap hunts here ..."
PHASA is trying to strong arm SCI into not selling a hunt for under 30% of its value, Im under correction but believe DSC has accepted this but as Ken says too many little unvetted guys are willing to give these hunts away to be auctioned and its flooding the market

Guys, dontations are donations - and they bring the money that the potential buyer thinks they are worth, period! It doesn't matter whether its a deer hunt, an elephant hunt, or a PG hunt in SA.

Of course a SA - PG hunt is gonna sell for peanuts! Good heavens, across the country each year - in every single show/convention/SCI local chapter, etc, etc, etc, - someone is donating a SA - PG hunt. The donation market is flooded with em! So is the actual sales market of SA - PG hunts. I actually give alot of credit to those of you that are selling these hunts - it seems around every corner is another guy offering the same sort of hunt for $50.00 cheaper.

Our hunt dontation to SCI each year almost always sells for 80% of actual value, and has sold a couple of times for 100% of value, and its the same hunt each year! If you have a hunt donation that folks think is vaulable, or is of limited supply, they will bid high for it, that simple!!! SA - PG hunts are not of limited supply!

My concern with the auctions is as Buzz mentioned - hunts donations offered by shady operators, is shady areas, etc, etc. I'm NOT specifically calling attention to any one donation, but SCI should vet them before accepting the donation. At least that's my point.

Roger Whittall safaris has been a supporter and annual exhibitor at SCI for over 30 years.

Reasons we believe business wasn't booming at Reno.

1) We were informed that pre-registration was down by 7000 compared to last year in Vegas.
2) It seems the older generation of hunters prefer Reno.
3) The Flu that ripped through the US must have been a contributing factor to the poor attendance.
4) Election was not good for hunting
5) Zambia closing hunting
6} Botswana closing hunting
7) Some operators in Zim conservancies have no quota yet.

You are making the point Aaron. The fact that there are so many SA hunt donations allowed is why they sell cheaply and that is the singular reason that SA companies have problems selling plains game hunts at SCI. SCI simply takes far too many of these hunts and sells them far too cheaply leaving minimum compensation for the donating company. 30% kick back doesn't come close to covering the expenses incurred on a SA donated hunt that sells for $800 and it sells for $800 because there are too many on auction. We go to the show to sell hunts not socialize and SCI should, IMO, increase the cash donation from the exhibitor and eliminate half of these SA donations. I would happily pay an $800 cash donation as opposed to the current $600 and see the SA donation hunts reduced. They are going for $800 bucks anyway so the club won't lose and we stand to book more hunts and make that sum up. As a life member I fully support SCI and its mission but as a business owner I cannot see where cutting the throats of the exhibitor benefits anyone other than SCI. Surely a better system can be developed that benefits all.

Exhibitors - Check out my post on Sour Grapes.

Larry Sellers

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Moody:
You are making the point Aaron. The fact that there are so many SA hunt donations allowed is why they sell cheaply and that is the singular reason that SA companies have problems selling plains game hunts at SCI. SCI simply takes far too many of these hunts and sells them far too cheaply leaving minimum compensation for the donating company. 30% kick back doesn't come close to covering the expenses incurred on a SA donated hunt that sells for $800 and it sells for $800 because there are too many on auction. We go to the show to sell hunts not socialize and SCI should, IMO, increase the cash donation from the exhibitor and eliminate half of these SA donations. I would happily pay an $800 cash donation as opposed to the current $600 and see the SA donation hunts reduced. They are going for $800 bucks anyway so the club won't lose and we stand to book more hunts and make that sum up. As a life member I fully support SCI and its mission but as a business owner I cannot see where cutting the throats of the exhibitor benefits anyone other than SCI. Surely a better system can be developed that benefits all.

Ken - Ya, I obviously see the point! I'm just not sure if SCI would be willing to limit the number of donations, but that's certainly something to bring up with Brett if you wish? I too agree, for you guys - it would be a HUGE help.

If I were in your shoes, I too simply would donate the mandatory cash donation and move on (as I believe you said that you do?) But certainly between ALL of the SA - PG hunt donations, and of course, all of the outfitters/agents selling the same hunts in the hall - its gotta be tough for you guys, I'm sure!

quote:

Originally posted by Guy Whittall:


1) We were informed that pre-registration was down by 7000 compared to last year in Vegas.

Guy - I think it was said the pre-registration was down 700. Just a small point. I think if it was down 7000 there would be nobody there.

Maybe I am wrong though?

I had a spokesman from SCI tell me at the show that attendance was down by 8000 as compared to last year. Several other exhibitors were told the same. I would have to concur as the aisles were empty most of the time with the exception of Friday.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Moody:
I had a spokesman from SCI tell me at the show that attendance was down by 8000 as compared to last year. Several other exhibitors were told the same. I would have to concur as the aisles were empty most of the time with the exception of Friday.

Yes, attendance was DEFINITELY down! I got the same figures, roughly 25% less than the year before in Vegas.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Sellers:
Exhibitors - Check out my post on Sour Grapes.

Larry Sellers

Please leave this for exhibitors. Thank you!

Brett

Brett,

I'm not much on bitching about SCI or the conventions as I think if exhibitors didn't find it beneficial they would not come and if they didn't come there would be no show. Period!

I do have one bitch though and that is that the food is mediocre and way over priced. If food is good I will gladly pay but this crap is ridiculous. If you don't want a cholesterol load or a 3 ingredient salad you could pay about $40 plus at the ? Grill for two for a "real" meal on a plastic plate with plastic silverware. Dessert $6 extra. Sadie and I are not cheap people but Sadie's comment just now was that the food was a "ripoff beyond belief". I concur.

Mark

Excellent post Wendell, spot on. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:


7. I think all the average exhibitor really wants is some appreciation from SCI. Not a "bullet-pen" as a gift that nobody could actually take on a plane with them (all overseas operators either gave them away or threw them away. Try entering a 3rd world country with a "bullet pen".) Not a T-shirt in a size that is too small to fit 90% of the exhibitors. Nice ideas, but not much thought was put into these $8 "gifts".

Well I took MY bullet pen back to Aust... in my bag, rolling around with the 470NE and two 44Mag cartridges that have been passengers in there since May last year, for some unknown reason. I have had about 30 plane rides since then and no one ever questions me!! My 8YO loves his new bullet pen... he even took it to school first day back.

That's more like it!!

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:
This isn't a complaint or suggestion, just curious.

Does SCI have something like this? I just found this, it is pretty interesting to see what all the hunts went for at DSC.

DSC final auction sales prices

I have always wondered what the hunts at SCI went for since I can't attend the day auctions and am usually too beat or have dinner plans and cant attend the night auctions.

I actually emailed SCI Auctions today to find out.

For many years the outfitters have been grumbling about SCI but largely keeping it to themselves so as not to get in the bad books of SCI - such is the nature of the beast. Two years ago a well represented contingent of African outfitters had dinner and informal meeting in Charlotte and it was clear that we had to stand together on issues such as donated hunts and venue. I do believe PHASA has tried to take up much what has been said on this forum with SCI and as powerful a lobby group as they are , we have seen little to no change . I would not like to speak on their behalf and there are members who could get Scruff Vermaak to maybe come on board and share. There is an Outfitter and Exhibitor liaison committee as far as I know and they too have been putting these issues on the table with SCI and obviously to no progress. I think however that what we are seeing here on AR is the first concerted and united effort to bring to the attention of SCI that across the board outfitters exhibitors and attendees are not happy with SCI. I think AR has the membership to make a difference. In the past SCI paid us no mind and certainly were not open to or wanting to take notice of contributions or complaints, but their failure to listen is now very evident in attendance and exhibitor dissatisfaction , finally exhibitors are speaking out because I think more are affected. For too long we have had to endure:
1.) Low quality food and beverage service at unacceptable prices.
2) Freeman's monopoly on exhibitor services and taking unacceptable liberty with their rates.
3.) Donations that are not vetted screened being accepted with little or no cost to benefit /appreciation.
4.) A point system that does not enhance the exposure of the core exhibitors (hunting outfitters).
5.) A non disclosed use of funds for exclusive cocktail parties and award ceremonies that is not open to the general public.
6.) A VIP room for donation purchases but not for the actual donor, the person giving the donation is not invited to the special facility.
7.) The complete absence of any on the floor SCI executives interacting with exhibitors.
8.) African based SCI revenue not been proportionately reinvested back into hunting in Africa by SCI.
9.) Lack of a formal program to invite, host and educate governments that are showing anti hunting stances to the annual convention - Botswana, Zambia.
10.) It is alleged that rooms rates increase as SCI takes a cut on the rooms , many of us have in the past booked a room been quoted a rate lower than SCI attendees, Hotels now black out the dates to ensure nobody slips through the crack like having a local book a room for you.
11.) The damn guy on the PA system, we had to stop our conversations in the booth as we were drowned out by his interruptions.

NOW, it is easy to complain but what can we suggest:

1.) Can the food and beverage vending not be put out on a transparent bidding system, surely the existing ones are not the best nor the best value, it is alleged that SCI take a cut of the takings???.
2.) We like many exhibitors have found you can purchase and have items like carpets, TV’s, copy machines delivered to site for a fraction of the hire costs of Freeman, if you go to Home Depot , Office Max etc you will see exhibitors buying tables chairs etc - all of which are simply left behind each year. So clearly SCI must pay attention Freemans is not the service provider of choice for exhibitors, SCI need to have meeting with them and get them to come to the table on their rates. At the last Spanish show I attended you got a booth display and table chair set as part of your booth price.
3.) Not to repeat the plethora of comments about donations, but the core agreements seem to be
a) Donations should be screened, does the donor own the property game and facility, is he/she a member of standing, a simple process would be for SCI to get a reference from the PH/Outfitters assoc of the donors country - this would also help the relevant country assoc manage and police their industry better.
b) We know you have to supply latest brochure for SCI to check donated value is a true reflected value, but again for both purchaser and donor benefit better screening is required, we in Botswana have seen elephant hunt donation from people we have never heard of but we are held accountable for their actions.
c) we have for a long time now called for reserve prices , nobody wants to prevent a good buy for the purchaser but let’s be realistic a 10 day PG hunt for $1000-00 is just not good business for anybody.
d.) it is alleged there are over 500 hunts that are donated at the shows - this takes 500 buyers off the floor, so both physical they are off the floor during trading hours and money wise these buyers are lost to the donation program. As exhibitors we come to the SCI show for exposure to qualified buyers yet SCI are the very entity taking them off the floor?? , either donations should be auctioned at night , or have a two day before the show auction program, but at present SCI are the exhibitors biggest competition at the show.
4.) Point system - yes we get points for $, we get points for booths and years of attendance and donation value. As a top 100 exhibitor I have donated nearly $500 000-00 to SCI, and enjoy the one and only benefit which is pre-selection of the following years booth location, it took 16 years to achieve this. A torch a incorrect size T shirt and a vase of flowers and knifes have been some of the thank you gestures for the $500 000-00. This last show I looked at the $9-00 thank you gift and instead of the intended goal of been received with gratitude, it was received with scorn and disbelief, that is how off the mark SCI are at present. How do you give an African exhibitor a vase of flowers - what as hand luggage on the 23 hour flight back home??
The point system should have a biased towards core theme exhibitors - e.g. hunting outfitters should have at least double the point award than periphery vendors , only prime booths should be available to outfitters, outfitters ofrom the same country or offering the same species should not be next to one another.
The point system has merits but is not serving the core theme exhibitors - it needs to be addressed.
5) All functions financed by SCI club funds should be open to general members and not restricted to SCI old boy clubs or special invite. Stop functions not open to general membership.
6) A room for donors and purchasees is a good idea but invite both parties’ not just buyers. The donation was a bigger contribution don’t you think.
7.) One of the great successes of DSC is the ever present attendance on the floor of executives, actively engaging exhibitors and attendees. Let’s not only see you when you want our $’s.
8.)not an exhibition items but is self explanatory - the ratio of income earned from African donations should be proportionately designated to African conservation and hunting issues.
9.) Countries with low hunting support need their Ministers and Department Directors to attend the show to see firsthand the economic potential hunting provides. SCI need to invest some of the donation income to actively hosting anti hunting government officials in a bid to enlighten them.
10.) Across the board SCI should not be skimming off the top from vendors servicing the convention, be it rooms, food, or services, if they are they should stop. If it affects revenue, make the surcharges transparent that way they can gauge exhibitor/attendee attitude to this.
11.) Get rid of the PA, should only be used for emergencies and limited to two a day.

I do believe that SCI needs to be held accountable for the low attendance, we can no longer stand by and have them dictate to us the terms of our membership / exhibition, the industry has tried in vain to bring to their attention the many problems affecting the industry, and now their non attendance to the problems has come back in the form of low attendance. They need to take accountability for this, not blame the economy (DSC had over 40 000 attendance).

In the past exhibitors received reciprocal gratitude for exhibiting and contributing to SCI , we all like to be appreciated and valued , it’s simple human nature. The other issues are simple scales of economy which SCI is very close to tipping the scales in the wrong direction.

Hey mate - that is good feddback. Just one question - you claim SCI attendance is dropping - how do you account for the good numbers in 2012 at Las Vegas? As much as I hate to say it - the difference between 2012 and 2013 were glaring...

Hi Matt,
For Las Vegas , all our PH's and subcontracters attended and brought their wives , even our older clients who had hung up their hunting sticks attended - Vegas in itself attracts the fence sitting guys and the hunters who were still thinking about planning a safari. Were there more buyers in 2012 ? ? , cant realy say . But for sure Reno has lost its appeal along with the economy and SCI's decaying exhibitor care all led to a dismal attendance and show. A question - for the last 15 years the preshow booth errections were lively and the buzz was electric with anticipation, I distictly remember telling my friend Chris Cawood that something was wrong - there was no buzz at set up , did any of the others get the same feel ??, then the exhibitors welcome party , I am sure even that attendance was way down from the prev 2 years, there was a curtain errected about 1/3 of the way through which I think was an attept to make the hall look fuller , I later heard it was to seperate a section for less noise ???? which I dont buy into. One of our paramount Chiefs here told me they have a Setswana saying - let the tears flow - and then carry on , I think this is what will happen , we will vent and moan and nothing will change.

Guys, an update I just got from Mike Angelides - the manager for Danny McCallum Safaris (DMS).

SCI has finally made right on their promise to DMS, as it pertains to the problem in Vegas last year. DMS has been given some concessions for the 2014 convention in Vegas. Obviously happy to hear that, so perhaps an effort on SCI's behalf to correct some of the current issues is under way. That's a good thing!!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Guys, an update I just got from Mike Angelides - the manager for Danny McCallum Safaris (DMS).

SCI has finally made right on their promise to DMS, as it pertains to the problem in Vegas last year. DMS has been given some concessions for the 2014 convention in Vegas. Obviously happy to hear that, so perhaps an effort on SCI's behalf to correct some of the current issues is under way. That's a good thing!!

Hmmm....Aaron, do you think this came about as a direct result of your recent posts here???

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
Hi Matt,
For Las Vegas , all our PH's and subcontracters attended and brought their wives , even our older clients who had hung up their hunting sticks attended - Vegas in itself attracts the fence sitting guys and the hunters who were still thinking about planning a safari. Were there more buyers in 2012 ? ? , cant realy say . But for sure Reno has lost its appeal along with the economy and SCI's decaying exhibitor care all led to a dismal attendance and show. A question - for the last 15 years the preshow booth errections were lively and the buzz was electric with anticipation, I distictly remember telling my friend Chris Cawood that something was wrong - there was no buzz at set up , did any of the others get the same feel ??, then the exhibitors welcome party , I am sure even that attendance was way down from the prev 2 years, there was a curtain errected about 1/3 of the way through which I think was an attept to make the hall look fuller , I later heard it was to seperate a section for less noise ???? which I dont buy into. One of our paramount Chiefs here told me they have a Setswana saying - let the tears flow - and then carry on , I think this is what will happen , we will vent and moan and nothing will change.

I cant honestly say - I am always excited to come to the SCI show but I just get in an setup and am busy. I never attend the exhibitor welcome thingy either... just too busy getting ready for the show.

We did about the same amount of business in 2013 as in 2012.

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Guys, an update I just got from Mike Angelides - the manager for Danny McCallum Safaris (DMS).

SCI has finally made right on their promise to DMS, as it pertains to the problem in Vegas last year. DMS has been given some concessions for the 2014 convention in Vegas. Obviously happy to hear that, so perhaps an effort on SCI's behalf to correct some of the current issues is under way. That's a good thing!!

Hmmm....Aaron, do you think this came about as a direct result of your recent posts here???

I joined DMS in December in the midst of Convention preparations, one of the items I had to deal with was the problem DMS had with the noise from the auctions at Vegas 2012.

On the Wednesday of the show Both Libby Grimes and Mike Wirth visited with me and were very understanding, helpful and apologetic and they want and are going to make it right with us, this was discussed before all these postings on AR.

We are looking forward to SCI 2014, and also hope attendance is up.

Brett
Any feed back from SCI , I am also aware the same issues are going viral on email amongst outfitters and hunting agents who are all reporting they lost seriuos money at Reno 2013.

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
Brett
Any feed back from SCI , I am also aware the same issues are going viral on email amongst outfitters and hunting agents who are all reporting they lost seriuos money at Reno 2013.

could you share any of this with us?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Angelides:

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Guys, an update I just got from Mike Angelides - the manager for Danny McCallum Safaris (DMS).

SCI has finally made right on their promise to DMS, as it pertains to the problem in Vegas last year. DMS has been given some concessions for the 2014 convention in Vegas. Obviously happy to hear that, so perhaps an effort on SCI's behalf to correct some of the current issues is under way. That's a good thing!!

Hmmm....Aaron, do you think this came about as a direct result of your recent posts here???

I joined DMS in December in the midst of Convention preparations, one of the items I had to deal with was the problem DMS had with the noise from the auctions at Vegas 2012.

On the Wednesday of the show Both Libby Grimes and Mike Wirth visited with me and were very understanding, helpful and apologetic and they want and are going to make it right with us, this was discussed before all these postings on AR.

We are looking forward to SCI 2014, and also hope attendance is up.

Mike, welcome to the forum and thanks for setting this straight.

Hi Larry ,
I have now recieved an abundance of PM and emails from outfitters and agents , in regards to the low attendance and the loss they took for the first time in 20 years at a SCI show in Reno 2013 , most asked to keep discussions confidential for obviuos reasons - in an industry where part of the marketing is to appear fully booked and very popular they dont want to appear not prospering as this is not good bussiness. A very big agent in african safaris stated most of his on site bussiness was bussiness he secured in Dallas and that his feeling was that once clients were comfortable with completing all the bussiness transactions in Dallas he would be dropping out of SCI , this was a central theme with many.
also put to me was that maybe I am lucky to be able to voice my dissatisfaction as hunting was closing in Botswana so the chances of being bullied by SCI were less , that folks is how exhibitors view SCI, and make no mistake these are not small operations.

Larry I seem to be missing a post from another thread where I asked if you were aware of any initiative by SCI to protect the rights of hunters to hunt in Botswana and what had they done to oppose the ban on hunting in Botswana - I am not aware of any and would be keen to be corrected , for is this not their mission and the cause hunters have supported with $ and time for a long time. I know I contributed over $500 000-00 to this.

As we speak I am dealing with yet another SCI issue where after reaching a top 100 exhibitor rateing and choosing my booths for 2014 in December and having a $3000-00 credit , I was sent an email basicaly saying the top 250 positions have been allocated they have nothing from me and I should send them an application and payment to avoid not getting a booth , talk about careing and looking after a exhibitor who has supported them for over 20 years and made considerable donations , there was no friendly email that they cant find my file or payment etc. no just a pay or go to hell mass generated email . I will gladly do so if they could refund me my $500 000-00 so I can donate it to an organization that would appreciate it.

Hi Brett

Is there any feed back from SCI to exhibitors postings ????.

Regards
Graeme

quote:

Originally posted by Safaris Botswana Bound:
Hi Larry ,
I have now recieved an abundance of PM and emails from outfitters and agents , in regards to the low attendance and the loss they took for the first time in 20 years at a SCI show in Reno 2013 , most asked to keep discussions confidential for obviuos reasons - in an industry where part of the marketing is to appear fully booked and very popular they dont want to appear not prospering as this is not good bussiness. A very big agent in african safaris stated most of his on site bussiness was bussiness he secured in Dallas and that his feeling was that once clients were comfortable with completing all the bussiness transactions in Dallas he would be dropping out of SCI , this was a central theme with many.
also put to me was that maybe I am lucky to be able to voice my dissatisfaction as hunting was closing in Botswana so the chances of being bullied by SCI were less , that folks is how exhibitors view SCI, and make no mistake these are not small operations.

Larry I seem to be missing a post from another thread where I asked if you were aware of any initiative by SCI to protect the rights of hunters to hunt in Botswana and what had they done to oppose the ban on hunting in Botswana - I am not aware of any and would be keen to be corrected , for is this not their mission and the cause hunters have supported with $ and time for a long time. I know I contributed over $500 000-00 to this.

As we speak I am dealing with yet another SCI issue where after reaching a top 100 exhibitor rateing and choosing my booths for 2014 in December and having a $3000-00 credit , I was sent an email basicaly saying the top 250 positions have been allocated they have nothing from me and I should send them an application and payment to avoid not getting a booth , talk about careing and looking after a exhibitor who has supported them for over 20 years and made considerable donations , there was no friendly email that they cant find my file or payment etc. no just a pay or go to hell mass generated email . I will gladly do so if they could refund me my $500 000-00 so I can donate it to an organization that would appreciate it.

that can't be true, Graeme. Matt and Larry say SCI is first for hunters. oh, that's right- you are just a lowly exhibitor who PAYS THE BILLS- DONATES THE MONEY...

I posted negative comments about SCI and I always have done. .. nice point-scoring attempt.