I would appriciate hearing from elephant hunters about your experience with both front on and side on head shots.

My 465 grain TCCI RN (450 Dakota) was found poking out of the opposite side of skull, having penetrated about 39 inches on one shot and about 32 inches on the other. Neither exited side on or quartering.

How many of you have got complete through and through perforations on side on shots or front on, going back into neck or chest?

Caliber, bullet, velocity and penetration depth details appriciated if you got em.

Andy

Have only taken one head shot and it was a frontal at about 30 yds with a 375 300gr Woodleigh. Elephant promptly went down on rear and just as promptly came back up wheeled and took off. Took heart/lung shot when he turned but probably too high. He crossed the boundary into area we were not permitted for and I lost him.

I made one frontal shot on my Elephant with a 375, 300gr. TBSH, in the front through the brain and out the back.

Side brain shots sometimes zing completely through and sometimes they don't, dependent upon whether the shot is perfectly perpendicular. Assuming the shot isn't too far off it really doesn't matter what cartridge or supposed penetration, as there is relatively little reistance.

But screwed up side shots or frontal shots is where penetration is needed. Found any magic bullets?

I don't know of any "elephant hunters" that post here on AR, just some of us wannabes.

All of my side brain shots have exited.

To the extent that I have been able to recover the bullets, all of my frontal brain shots have at least gone through the head and into the neck.

As best I can remember.
Brain shots on elephant.
480 gr Woodleigh out of 465H&H, Side on, 5 taken none exited the far side. Frontal, three taken, two wemt into neck one stopped less than 1" to the right of brain half way back. (Head was very high on a large bull and the bullet entered around 12" below where the tusks come out of the lip.)

458 Win. 500 gr Trophy Bonded Sledghjammer solid. Side brain, i shot, did not exit.

458 Lott, 550 gr Woodleigh, Frontal, 3 shots all exited head into neck or exited neck. Did not trace them beyoond the neck. Side brain, 5 shots all exited head.

465H&H

This year I shot two cow elephants both with single frontal brain shots (the first was shot several times to the chest as well, but it was actually dead - we didn't know it till the next day).

The first was a little small but we shot it as it had lost over half its trunk. The bullet path was an angle that would have passed through the top of the brain. However we found an exit wound behind the right ear in the neck. After the brain the bullet must have angled considerably for some reason. But not tested by autopsy, just speculation.

The second cow ele was normal size and also shot to the brain with a frontal shot. No exit.

Both eles were shot with a .450 No. 2 NE with 480 grain Woodleigh FMJs at about 2170 fps (muzzle velocity).

I shot my elephant twice in the head with a 400 gr 416 solid and to the best of my knowledge neither bullet exited. Kudude

"...I don't know of any "elephant hunters" that post here on AR, just some of us wannabes..."

Very true Bill.

Sadly, some people think they are an authority on elephants hunting once they have shot a couple of them.

Saeed, which of us posting on this thread do you think should hold our tongues (or keyboards)?

Saheed,

Funny, but your posting made me think about hunting guinea fowl! Guinea fowl? Yes. Now we all know that some animals are clever, and some not. It is said that a guinea fowl has an IQ of 2 only. But, you must remember that guinea fowl operate in flocks. There are many eyes to spot danger and they can communicate very well. So the wannabe PH who offers 'wingshooting' to unsuspecting clients very often come second when attempting to surround a flock. You see, the flock of 75 has a combined IQ of 150! Far exceeding that of the average wannabe PH!

The same with the pooled elephant hunting experience. None of the posters here will ever come close to Manners or Bell in experience. But, thanks to your generosity, the many individuals with one, two or even quite a few elephant hunts, all combine their experience, to collectively exceed the experience of even Bell!

It was in seeking this combined experience that Andy asked his question.

Thanks again to Saheed for making the sharing of such experiences possible!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

nicely said there andrew. so boerseun se bek kort jam....i like the comparison with guinea fowl, never quite thought of it that way...

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
Saheed,

Funny, but your posting made me think about hunting guinea fowl! Guinea fowl? Yes. Now we all know that some animals are clever, and some not. It is said that a guinea fowl has an IQ of 2 only. But, you must remember that guinea fowl operate in flocks. There are many eyes to spot danger and they can communicate very well. So the wannabe PH who offers 'wingshooting' to unsuspecting clients very often come second when attempting to surround a flock. You see, the flock of 75 has a combined IQ of 150! Far exceeding that of the average wannabe PH!

The same with the pooled elephant hunting experience. None of the posters here will ever come close to Manners or Bell in experience. But, thanks to your generosity, the many individuals with one, two or even quite a few elephant hunts, all combine their experience, to collectively exceed the experience of even Bell!

It was in seeking this combined experience that Andy asked his question.

Thanks again to Saheed for making the sharing of such experiences possible!

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

Just thought this bears repeteing!

I thought about posting, but in light of Saeed's comment, I'll hold that thought, and remain silent!

ANDY: Talk to Mike Brady at North Fork Technologies. He makes North Fork flat nose solid bullets that will end your worries of penetration. I've shot exactly one elephant but head and body shots were shoot throughs. Look at the bullet that is sticking out of the off shoulder of the rhino I shot. The picture is in my hunting report. In my book that's all the penetration you need.

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
Funny, but your posting made me think about hunting guinea fowl! Guinea fowl? Yes. Now we all know that some animals are clever, and some not. It is said that a guinea fowl has an IQ of 2 only. But, you must remember that guinea fowl operate in flocks. There are many eyes to spot danger and they can communicate very well. So the wannabe PH who offers 'wingshooting' to unsuspecting clients very often come second when attempting to surround a flock. You see, the flock of 75 has a combined IQ of 150! Far exceeding that of the average wannabe PH!

The same with the pooled elephant hunting experience. None of the posters here will ever come close to Manners or Bell in experience.

...

It was in seeking this combined experience that Andy asked his question.

Great point. I doubt AR's entire membership would equal Manners or Bell.

Guineafowl certainly have sharp and wary eyes but an elephant rifle might be overdoing it!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
"...I don't know of any "elephant hunters" that post here on AR, just some of us wannabes..."

Very true Bill.

Sadly, some people think they are an authority on elephants hunting once they have shot a couple of them.

Saeed!

Does that mean you are a "Wannabe buffalo hunter"? Does that mean that there are no hunters on this thread of any species?

465H&H

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
"...I don't know of any "elephant hunters" that post here on AR, just some of us wannabes..."

Very true Bill.

Sadly, some people think they are an authority on elephants hunting once they have shot a couple of them.

Saeed!

Does that mean you are a "Wannabe buffalo hunter"? Does that mean that there are no hunters on this thread of any species?

465H&H

465H&H

With Saeeds logic, there are no "real" hunters on AR at all, and thus no information of value to be found here either...

Just how many of game X does it take to make ones experiance of genuine value, that might be of help to others? I guess I'll have to put aside all the things I've learned from the various AR members!

Hearing someone bring up the 'Old Pros' and there multiple kills brings to mind the man who has worked in a job for 12 years. You could say he has 12 years experience or you could say he has 1 years experience 12 times. It depends on how long it took him to learn the job. A hunter is one who hunts period. Does not depend on either success or skill to have 'HUNTED'.

Sorry Andy, it appears that your original request for information has been somewhat sidetracked........

FWIW, for me, two bulls, complete pass throughs on both with shots through the chest. I don't know the distance through. Only recovered bullet was from insurance shots through the spine, found low in the chest.

404 Jeffery, 400 grain woodleigh FMJ at 2400 fps.

I will say this on the "who's a hunter?" question:

Experience can be a great teacher, but it is not the only teacher, and what is learned even from experience depends entirely on the quality of the student.

Besides, only a fool is limited to learning solely from his own experience. A man with brains will learn from his own experience, and also from the experience - and especially the mistakes - of others.

Saeed,

Whether you have shot one elephant or one hundred and one, I would still like to hear from you!

Jerry,

Did your TBSH exit out the back of skull or go into the neck?

Will,

Have you always used the 400 grain Speer in your 416? If not did you notice any difference with other brands?

Mufasa,

I have seen your picture, and I used experimental NF FN on my elephant, and got 60 to 64 inches penetration through htickest part of skull as directed by my PH, Myles McCallum, who I think it is safe to say was an elephant hunter, not just an elephant shooter.

Andy

"there is more acrimony than lead in the air".

I insist, I have absolutely no experience with elephant.

But one can agree that ele hunting now is different than in the 50ties and more than in Selous time when any elephant was naive.
What is interesting the present hunter is the present elephant and the present successful hunters'experience.
There is no longer elephant slayer..........and everybody is aware of.

It must be the little man big ego thing..............JJ

Side Brain Shots:
I have fired six original, insurance and test side brain shots. Rifle was a 458.

Three 500gr Woodleighs at about 2025fps passed through a cow skull.

A 500gr Woodleigh at 2135fps passed though a bull skull, another one at the same speed was found embedded in the off side zygomatic arch.

A 450gr North Fork flat nose solid passed through a cow skull, velocity 2190fps.

Quartering Away Brain Shot:
I fired one quartering away brain shot at a cow, the 500gr Woodleigh at 2025fps was found embedded in the off side zygomatic arch.

Frontal Brain Shots:
One frontal brain shot with a 500gr Woodleigh at 2025fps exited the head of a tuskless cow at the neck/head junction.

One 450gr North Fork at 2190fps exited between the shoulder blades of a tuskless cow after 53" of penetration.

One 500gr Woodleigh at 2135fps was recovered in the neck of a tuskless cow after 32" of penetration.

One 500gr Woodleigh at 2250fps, fired from a 470, was recovered just under the skin between the shoulder blades of a tuskless cow after 52" of penetration.

Two 500gr Woodleighs at 2135fps were recovered from the necks of two bulls, penertation unknown.

Body Shots:
All broadside body shots on cows with North Forks have exited, including one which pased through one or both shoulders and broke the spine.

IIRC, Woodleighs at 2135fps have done the same.

A hard quartering away body shot on a large tusked cow with a North fork at 2190fps failed to exit but punctured both lungs.

Two 500gr Woodleighs at 2135fps failed to exit bulls on quartering away shots.

One North Fork fired at the heart from the front was lost after over 60" of penetration.

Another North Fork, also fired at the heart was recovered after 63" of penetration.

The results are from memory, I'll check my notes when I get home and correct any errors.

JPK

Three of my seven elephants were shot in the head. Two frontal and one side brain shot. The frontals did not exit but the side brain shot did. All were TBSH 300 grain .375 H&H.

Andy,
Mine came out the back of the skull.

quote:

Originally posted by Andrew McLaren:
Saheed,

. . .thanks to your generosity, the many individuals with one, two or even quite a few elephant hunts, all combine their experience, to collectively exceed the experience of even Bell!

It was in seeking this combined experience that Andy asked his question.
Andrew McLaren

Andrew, that is exactly why I began this thread.

And why I have renamed it, ¨For elephant Shooters Only,¨to remove the subthread about whether we are hunting elephant or just shooting them!

Thankyou for correctly understanding the reason I began the thread and sticking to it.

And thankyou all for sharing your experiences.

Lets keep it going.

So far, it sounds to me that the extra horse power of my Dakota is not as important as shooting a FN vs a RN. (Or a very heavy bullet like 465s 550 grain). JPK's 450 NF at just 2200 fps certainly did well!

Interesting, though the extra velocity I had is useful in a SP, or perhaps in making a larger necrotic area around the FN or RN.

One of my head shots, oddly the one with most penetraiton with a TCCI RN, was also through the zygomatic arch. Alot of bone there. My body shot went through rear leg, 21 inches thick including a 6 inch thick humerus bone, and turned over 180 degrees in omasum (elephant are monogastric like a horse) causing alot of damage, and continued on base forward through thorax. The head shots all kept point forward.

Could any of you guys tell if your recovred bullets kept point forward, or were some of them sideways or base forward?

Andy

How they ended up is difficult to say as most of mine have been found by the skinners. The 550 grain Woodleighs that gave complete penetration showed round caliber sized exit holes so I assume the stayed point forward all the way.

BTW, I consider myself an elephant hunter and not just an elephant shooter! I have spent too much time learning the ins and outs of hunting elephants to think otherwise.

465H&H

Andy,

One North Fork, fired as an insurance shot penetrated a bent front leg, including the bone, then proceeded into the chest from below and exited the top at the front of the chest cavity.

The North Fork that penetrated 63" from the front curved in the later part of its path, and the bullet is divotted on one side of the flat point, but it seemed to have stayed front forward.

The 500gr Woodleigh at 2025fps recovered from a zygomatic arch was good in enough shape to reuse, but for the engraving, It was round and unblemished.

The 500gr Woodleigh at 2135fps recovered from a bull's zygomatic arch was split, but still whole. The course appeared straight and I believe it was travelling point forward until contact with the arch, which I think caused the damege.

On an insurance shot on a buff, shot with a 500gr Woodleigh at 2025fps, at a very shallow angle, the bullet path was visible under the skin for its entire length, right up to where the bullet came to rest. This bullet traveled about three feet and broke the spine of the bull. About a foot past the spine the bullet path very clearly showed that the bullet began tumbling and continued to tumble til it stopped, at about a 45* andgle to its path. It did two or three end over end revolutions, iirc, but the path was straight.

The 500gr Woodleigh fired from a 470 at 2250fps, was found point forward bulging the skin after passing through the skull and neck. No sign of tunbling.

JPK

Hi Andy,

Please detail to us why you shot a "light" 465 grn weight, A-Square "type" solid bullet, given that you were using a 450 DAKOTA calibered rifle.

It is factory loaded to shoot 500 grn bullets at 2450 FPS in 24" bbl, or even 600 grn bullet at 2150 FPS or a little faster.

I know that in the N.F. flat nose a little lighter solid still gives fine penetration and this is also reported to be the case with G. S. Custom flat nose solids.

Thank you for your information.

Big 5,

My elephant hunt was not guaranteed but bufalo was, so I went prepared for buff #1.

I used the 465 grain (30 gram) at 2500 fps because it overlapped the point of impact of my 450 grain NF soft points and also the 450 grain NF FN solid at 2550 fps.

The 500 grain bullets shot 4 to 6 inches low in my rifle depending on velocity and kicked too much for my comfort. The 450 NF softs were a better soft than any of the heavier bullets, and I built everything around that.

Also the 30 gram 458 still had a higher SD than a 500 grain 475 or 300 grain 375, and in my penetration tests gave up only 10% penetration to a heavier bullet. Both it and the 450 grain are unconventional bullet weights but about right for premium (rather than 1910 or 1950 era) bullets.

For elephant it was mostly a matter of recoil and wanting a shorter bullet that would stabilize better than a 500 grain monometal. The TCCI also fed reliably in my rifle and stayed put with its large crimp groove.

The extra velocity was useful for buff and when I hunted kudu (200 yards at a fast walk). I did not take a second rifle for PG.

If I were doing it over I would probably take a dedicated (and lighter) open sight elephant rifle, and my 375 improved (scoped 1.5 x 6) for buff and PG.

Im just learning about this stuff.

Andy

McLaren, You are a genius!

i have shot 14, 12 with a 375H&H, one with a 577t-rex and one with a 450 Dakota, all in the head. 2 were charges. The t-rex penetraited a disappointing 18 inches we recovered both bullets it was a charge and frontal. the other 13 I never saw a bullet come out the otherside on cows even with 375 H&H using speer tugsten solids, the frontal shots I cant remember recovering anything, I have only brain elephants, my PH has never lost one in his career, as he says"Touch wood"

quote:

Originally posted by LV Eric:
i have shot 14, 12 with a 375H&H, one with a 577t-rex and one with a 450 Dakota, all in the head. 2 were charges. The t-rex penetraited a disappointing 18 inches we recovered both bullets it was a charge and frontal. the other 13 I never saw a bullet come out the otherside on cows even with 375 H&H using speer tugsten solids, the frontal shots I cant remember recovering anything, I have only brain elephants, my PH has never lost one in his career, as he says"Touch wood"

Eric,

I love it!

Those with the preconceived idea that "bigger is better" better read the above very carefully.

Art Alpin is going to have a heart attack now - especially after all the bullshit he had written about how and why he designed the 577 T.Rex.

Hunting Elephant re-opened in Botswana in 1996 and we have been fortunate to have a quota of 6 elephant trophy bulls on quota and this has increased to 12 , we also purchase additional quota froom other outfitters and now average about 15 TROPHY bulls a year. But even with between 60-70 elephant hunts, I dont think I qualify to be an authority in the league of Bell and more recent elephant hunters such as Ron Thomson with over 1000 harvested.
I have a spanish hunter/ client who has hunted over 60 bulls in his life time ( ALL TROPHY ) and visited his trophy room - it was awesome to see Elephant from Tanzania, Zambia, Botswana, South Africa, Mozambique, CAR , Etheopia , and Zimbabawe to name a few of the areas he hunted in his 50 years of elephant hunting.

The single connection , to my experience and that related to me by this great hunter is that no two elephant hunts are the same.
No one particular calibre dominated another and no one bullett dominated another.

In all the 60 plus hunts only one brain shot exited and that was with a hunter from Dallas, TX , who was useing a .416 weatherby.
This year a hunter with a .416 Rigby shot his bull 9 times - three frontal brain , 2 side brain and 4 lung zone. The bull never went further than 80 yards but it never collapsed either. I also shot it twice with a .500 ,

Of the 60 plus bulls half of these hunts have involved attempted brain shots - of these 30 plus only 5 have been successfull , one shot kills.

When we hunt we try get 20 yards and then go 5 yards closer - so the distance is normaly not an issue, except for head angle - which now requires a lower shot than expected ( side brain ) often the elephanr reacts to the noise /suspicion of the hunter and turns ears and head raised - facing the hunter - this is the biggest no shoot situation as the head is now very badly placeed and requires an immensely low shot , we normaly let the elephant settle and then as it turns its presents a perfect side brain shot. It may have even shortened the distance.

The key to the brain shot is the the agreement with your PH on back up as a head wound elephant will run like the wind and probably change countries never mind concessions. We normaly agree should the hunter take the head shot and the elephant does not drop in its track we back up , should the hunter opt for the lung shot we usualy agree to no back up but on all shots paramount is the hunter must follow up with more shots - irrespective of calibre my experience on big game is when a bad shot is made the more lead put in the departing animal the better for all. As there is better chance of a weaker animal , more blood , and probably lesss distance travelled.

What calibres ? again no single calibre dominates - but I can say the bigger the more comfortable I am , not wanting to experience the wrath of the .375 loyal - this is not a gun of preference for me and big game , but with the correctly placed shot its penetration is legendary. My recommended calibre for someone buying a firearm for a big game safari with elephant as a primary species - I suggest the .416 remington - this calibre has excellent penetration , and muscle. Open sights are best but many a hunter is not used to hunting with open sights and feel comfortable with scopes - again confidence in calibre and shooting ability are more important than the concern in the differnce between a .458 and a .458 lott.

Another good friend and regular hunter , is a Texan who made a life size elephant cut out and placed a replica wooden brain in place and practised a whole lot. Great confidence booster and the more one practices the luckier one gets.

The brain shot is allways a spectacular sight but I allways recommend the lung/heart shot for pure success and at the price of elephant hunting , watching a head wounded bull disappear into a National Park ( no follow up allowed ) must be the worst nightmare I have

All the best
and happy hunting
Graeme Pollock
Safaris Botswana Bound
Safaris Mozambique Bound

Graeme!

Excellent advice!

465H&H

I have only killed two elephants. One bull with a 40 yard heart/lung shot and one tuskless cow with a 25 yard frontal brain shot. The bull ran about 40 yards and dropped. The cow required a follow up heart/lung as I shot too high. She didn't travel more than five yards before falling for good. I used a 375 HH 300 grain solid. It is truly all you ever need. The ammo is relatively cheap and available. Even with this experience I fell to the temptation of buying a semi-custom 458 Lott. It looks really cool, but the ammo is pricey and I can't shoot more than ten rounds without my shoulder leaving the country. I am thinking of putting it up for sale to help finance my next elephant hunt, but its so damn pretty!

Graeme, thanks for taking the time to post. It is interesting to hear from someone with your amount of experience.

Graeme,

The brain shot is best but from all the hunting videos one sees not that many hunters are prepared for it. The other thing I notice from these videos is that seemingly the client gets little coaching from the PH and makes me wonder if the PH is wanting some action for himself!

The brain shot is not that difficult if you get close, regardless of the angle, and you know where to shoot, of course. How prepared clients are for a brain shot I do not know. But practice on real elephants doesn't hurt!

All the talk about the 375 being enough gun is just fallacy. When an elephant comes to clean your clock you want something that will at least come close to dropping it or turning it from the impact. While no cartridge can guarantee that, a 375 is not even in the ballpark.