Guests //

Just a polite caveat to (be careful) where you put your payments when you book a hunt as there might be implications if the money is going to the WRONG people !!

Congratulation to GWB & the USA for getting firmer

Good luck, Peter
-----------------------

Bush widens sanctions against Zimbabwe

Wednesday, November 23, 2005;

CRAWFORD, Texas (AP) -- President Bush is targeting the U.S. accounts of leading government officials in Zimbabwe, saying those who work with President Robert Mugabe must restore democracy or face sanctions.

The White House announced Wednesday that Bush had signed an executive order Tuesday blocking all property and financial holdings in the United States owned by 128 people and 33 institutions in Zimbabwe.

It also bars U.S. citizens from having financial dealings with them.

"This action is not aimed at the people of Zimbabwe, but rather at those most responsible for their plight," said White House spokeswoman Dana Perino.

Bush already had issued sanctions against Mugabe and 76 other officials under an executive order signed in March 2003. Tuesday's order added 53 people and applied to their immediate family members. It also allows the secretary of state and treasury secretary to expand the list without a presidential order.

Bush said that since the first order, conditions in Zimbabwe had continued to deteriorate.

"The government continues to suppress opposition groups and civil society, undermine the independent media, ignore decisions by its courts, and refuse to enter into meaningful negotiations with other political actors," Bush wrote in a leader to congressional leaders.

"Zimbabwe's parliamentary elections in March 2005 were not free or fair. Recent demolitions of low income housing and informal markets have caused 700,000 people to lose their homes, jobs, or both. Additional measures are required to promote democratic change."

The United States has refused to recognize Mugabe as winner of last March's presidential election, which was seen widely as rigged.

Mugabe led Zimbabwe to independence from Britain in 1980 and had its name changed from Rhodesia to Zimbabwe, harking back to a great city in the country built by an advanced ancient culture. Mugabe has become increasingly authoritarian, spearheading media controls and takeovers of white-owned farms.

Those and other policies have led to Zimbabwe's increasing international isolation and raised criticism from opponents at home.

Mugabe's government has seized thousands of white-owned commercial farms since 2000 under a land-reform program critics say has crippled Zimbabwe's agriculture-based economy and contributed to widespread hunger there. About 4 million Zimbabweans, or a third of the population, urgently need food aid, according to U.N. estimates.

Mugabe defended the seizures as "redressing the past gross imbalances in land ownership which were institutionalized by British colonialism." Until 2000, whites farmed 17 percent of the country and earned most of its export revenue.

Recent constitutional changes in Zimbabwe will prevent white owners from recovering confiscated farms and could be used to strip critics of their passports and right to travel.

The European Union has imposed sanctions on Zimbabwe that include banning Mugabe and other government officials from traveling to EU countries.

quote:

The White House announced Wednesday that Bush had signed an executive order Tuesday blocking all property and financial holdings in the United States owned by 128 people and 33 institutions in Zimbabwe.

It also bars U.S. citizens from having financial dealings with them.

"This action is not aimed at the people of Zimbabwe, but rather at those most responsible for their plight," said White House spokeswoman Dana Perino.

Could the above possibly be interpreted as applying to us hunters who book a trip with an outfitter such as Russ Broom?

I doubt it - sounds like to me he just added a few names to the banned party-officials list.

quote:

Originally posted by patrkyhntr:

quote:

The White House announced Wednesday that Bush had signed an executive order Tuesday blocking all property and financial holdings in the United States owned by 128 people and 33 institutions in Zimbabwe.

It also bars U.S. citizens from having financial dealings with them.

"This action is not aimed at the people of Zimbabwe, but rather at those most responsible for their plight," said White House spokeswoman Dana Perino.

Could the above possibly be interpreted as applying to us hunters who book a trip with an outfitter such as Russ Broom?

You guys who continue to go to Zim because it's a good deal are living in a dream world. The sanctions mean that if any of the money you spend ends up in the pockets fo the people listed you have violated the the law. It does not take into account your knowledge or lack of it in paying for your hunt.

If you hunt on any siezed ranches, stay in any siezed lodges that belong to the people mentioned you have broken the law.

As far as my opinion goes you should all, each and every one of you that does this, be punished to the full extent of the law for doing it. Being an ignorant hunter in search of a good deal is no excuse.

It's a sad and pathetic bunch of people who look for good deals off of other people's suffering.

Guess whos name is on the new list?
Webster Shamu...HHK's partner.
Good luck guys with your Zim planning.

It's kind of a double-edged sword. If you hunt Zim the money (probably) ends up in the pockets of Bob's Boys & if you don't you hurt the innocent outfitters.
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by almostacowboy:
It's kind of a double-edged sword. If you hunt Zim the money (probably) ends up in the pockets of Bob's Boys & if you don't you hurt the innocent outfitters.
Dave

There are no longer many innocent outfitters. Most have made deals with the Devils in order to make as much as they can before the end comes.

Pretend you are doing God's work by going and supporting the downtrodden. You are lining the pockets of the thieves and rewarding them for their theft.

quote:

There are no longer many innocent outfitters. Most have made deals with the Devils in order to make as much as they can before the end comes.

Mickey,

Have all the outfitters made deals with Bob's buddies? Are none of them hunting legally?

I wish Ganyana would help us understand our options.

Les

Mickey1: I know you command a lot of respect and credibility here, but allow me to disagree with that blanket statement. Although you are correct that a lot of operators are in bed with the politicians, many are not. There are quite a few that manage to keep people employed so they do not have to poach them into extinction as they have a vested interest. There are a lot of machinations involved in keeping money out of Mugabe's hands, but it can and is being done. Accordingly, I have no remorse in maintaining enough life blood through some of the smaller operators. I firmly believe it's the right thing to do. Thoughts? jorge

Anyone have a link to the blacklist?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Mickey1: I know you command a lot of respect and credibility here, but allow me to disagree with that blanket statement. Although you are correct that a lot of operators are in bed with the politicians, many are not. There are quite a few that manage to keep people employed so they do not have to poach them into extinction as they have a vested interest. There are a lot of machinations involved in keeping money out of Mugabe's hands, but it can and is being done. Accordingly, I have no remorse in maintaining enough life blood through some of the smaller operators. I firmly believe it's the right thing to do. Thoughts? jorge

Jorge

My comment was many, not all. Smaller outfitters, hunting in government areas should be okay but Ranch hunts and Camps have been taken over or have gained 'new' partners in order to stay in business.

I can't blame anyone for doing what they need to do to take care of their families but so many of the companies are in it to get as much money as they can before it all ends. By supporting them the situation is prolonged and no justice is possible.

Just my opinion on Turkey Day.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone and may you all be blessed with love and peace in the upcoming year.

Thanks, Mickey, I should have read it closer. When i was in Zim this past June, I met a middle aged couple that used to run a flower farm. The typical happened, where Mugabe's thugs came and threw them out of their house and property with hardly any time to take some meager possessions. Presently they were running the main camp for one of the bigger safari outfits in Zim and making do. As long as we can keep folks like that alive, there is hope for Zim until that thug mugabe kicks off. jorge

I'm getting a bit sick of us messing in Africa at all. The name may change, but the poverty and death stay the same, or get worse.

I'm unconvinced South Africa is better off now then prior. I'm unconvinced that any government replacing Mugabe is going to be better then the existing one.

The entire process of identifying 'criminals' in Zim is suspect to me. We send other governments money, with strings attached, and, they pocket the money. They are now criminals for failing to take the money we send them, and using the way we tell them. In other words, they refuse to be puppets. I really wonder if they even understand the strings attached to our 'gifts' to these countries.

I have lately been in areas, such as Hunter's Point in San Francisco, that would greatly benefit from our foreign aid money.
It seems to me we have an obligation to raise the bottom bar of existence in our own country, prior to trying to be Big Brother to the world.

On the otherside, the greatest threat to my real intrest in Africa is over population. By giving aide to Africa, we increase the population, and decrease habitat for the animals many enjoy. I realize this is a real moral position:
On one hand I would let people starve who would overpopulate, and destroy their own wonderful country, and in the end, themselves, for the sake of lower life forms. On the otherhand, perhaps the only moral justification can be that having a beautiful Africa, rather then a giant ghetto, would be for the benefit of mankind in the long run, rather then the short term view of a generation.

What I like about Bush's action is rather then giving,spending MORE money, he is depriving the heads of state of their
money.

I'm not sure I suscribe to the theory that the 'poor, down trodden African's' are being abused by Mugabe, and his thugs. Certainly in our own country, we get the government we deserve, by our own participation and choice, of location, and actions in politics. If Washington D.C. elects a cocaine addict, Marion Barry, then they can probably expect a corrupt
city head.

Likewise, Mugabe was put in by his own people, and, perhaps he was the BEST choice the people had at the time.

For a bit of perspective: Mugabe led his people to 'freedom' in 1980, 25 years ago.
George Washington and company, freed the US from British rule in about 1776-1780. Let's say the later, for even numbers.
Why do we expect morality and ethics we impose, to be the same in a country that has been 'free' only 25 years, vs. one that has been free for 225 years?

gs

GS: Comparing George Washington to Mugabe is the most patently absurd statement I believe I've ever read on this forum and that includes "beauts" from luminaries like Carmello, Hot Core, Wynwood and the like. Mugabe didn't lead jack shit to freedom. Time and time again he's stolen elections, terrorized all those who are not of his tribe and destroyed a country that was once the bread basket of africa. After 25 years Germany for example (West Germany of course) was the third most powerful econmoic force in the world behind the US and the former Soviet Union. Moreover,it had bona-fide clean elections a great standard of living, the list goes on and on. Your point regarding Washington D.C. is well taken, but then again look at the similarities there. Have you been to Zimbabwe? I doubt it for if you had, you wouldn't have even THOUGHT about inking that ridiculous statement about Mugabe and his thugs really not being all that bad. The BEST choice for Zimbabwe was Ian Smith not the barbaric, corrupt rabble of a former hotel doorman that rose to power thanks to the help of the Soviet Block. I strongly recommend you do a bit of resarch on the issues before uttering such "profundities." jorge

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Anyone have a link to the blacklist?

Try here.

This is the link to the current complete .PDF document.

Jorge: Thanks for making the point I didn't want to say. Yes, it's the PEOPLE of a country that determine their success, or failure.
Currently we have rampant over simplification of complex issues. In most of these forums, these sort of problems are much easier to blame on a figure head, like George Bush, Clinton, Mugabe, then to accept the complexity of a long existing problem. In the US, CONGRESS, who we elect, is directly responsible for the funding, and actions, such as going to war. Remember, only one black lady from Oakland voted against Bush's war.
As you've done for me, even though of questionable morality, and ethics, at least according to some in this country, the fact is the German people are industrious, hardworking, well educated, and intelligent. German success is in great part due to two things: American aid, after the war, and a very strong ethnic belief, and gifts.
Compare the Germans to the African people, and their stages of development, and you may start to see an analogy between Washington D.C. Zim, and how their leaders are reflections of the people they rule. Ian Smith started this entire mess, declaring independence for a country 98% Africian.

I consider such people much better off with leaders from other cultures, that have attained some semblence of morality, ethics, and a certain level of education, and, some sort of standing in the 21st century, not the 19th(Benevolent dictator). It appears from this side of the pond, that a Mugabe is much like a gang leader, and runs his country as certain Black mobsters would, and do run certain projects. Your either with them, or harassed, beat up, and maybe on a bad day, killed by the gang, or gangs. This is the sort of barbaric behavior that seems to be the norm, not the exception, in African countries.

Certainly is intresting that you argue Ian Smith should have run the country, when he was the one who tried to impose a white only rule on a country that's made up of
African 98% (Shona 82%, Ndebele 14%, other 2%), mixed and Asian 1%, white less than 1%.

Not to mention that all the fuss about crops and lands is put in perspective by the
figures on the success of farming in Zim:

arable land: 8.32%
permanent crops: 0.34%
other: 91.34% (2001)
(Figures from:
CIA on Zim
)

It's sad, but looking at the statistics, I'd swear I'm looking at a pre-medievil country:

Life expectancy at birth:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
total population: 39.13 years
male: 40.2 years
female: 38.03 years

HIV/AIDS - adult prevalence rate:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
24.6% (2001 est.)
HIV/AIDS - people living with HIV/AIDS:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
1.8 million (2001 est.)
HIV/AIDS - deaths:
Definition Field Listing Rank Order
170,000 (2003 est.)

Major infectious diseases:
Definition Field Listing
degree of risk: high
food or waterborne diseases: bacterial diarrhea, hepatitis A, and typhoid
vectorborne disease: malaria
water contact disease: schistosomiasis (2004)

Ethnic groups:
Definition Field Listing
African 98% (Shona 82%, Ndebele 14%, other 2%), mixed and Asian 1%, white less than 1%

In light of the population makeup, putting Ian Smith in power makes as much sense
as having Whites rule S.A.

Economy - overview:
Definition Field Listing
The government of Zimbabwe faces a wide variety of difficult economic problems as it struggles with an unsustainable fiscal deficit, an overvalued exchange rate, soaring inflation, and bare shelves. Its 1998-2002 involvement in the war in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, for example, drained hundreds of millions of dollars from the economy. Badly needed support from the IMF has been suspended because of the country's failure to meet budgetary goals. Inflation rose from an annual rate of 32% in 1998 to 133% at the end of 2004, while the exchange rate fell from 24 Zimbabwean dollars per US dollar to 6,200 in the same time period. The government's land reform program, characterized by chaos and violence, has badly damaged the commercial farming sector, the traditional source of exports and foreign exchange and the provider of 400,000 jobs.

Disputes - international:
Definition Field Listing
Botswana has built electric fences and South Africa has placed military along the border to stem the flow of thousands of Zimbabweans fleeing to find work and escape political persecution; Namibia has supported and in 2004 Zimbabwe dropped objections to plans between Botswana and Zambia to build a bridge over the Zambezi River, thereby de facto recognizing a short, but not clearly delimited Botswana-Zambia boundary in the river.

So, with an average life expectancy of 39, rampant disease, aids at 25%, or more, well, those are MY hope for Zimbabwe.
If we hasten the downfall of Mugabe, and lead to more population decimation, then perhaps the resources you, and I value there, will be protected.

By the way, I consider such countries at about the same development place as 14th century new world, or perhaps 12th century old world. By using George Washington I was trying to make the point that even 225 years ago, the British, French some of the time, and the New World, all had better developed morality and ethics then we see today in Zim. Not a shock in a country that is about 25% still in tribal Africa.

Also, Washington, while a great general, was susceptible to the effects of politics, in fact Congress, and his lack of funds to wage the war, make the success, and our independence, truly incredible.

In the future you might want to read both my lines, and the lines between them. You fixed on one issue, and neglected the overall picture. This, however, is the normal approach. It's much easier to blame a corrupt dictator then it is to admit that in a country still in the 12th century, such things we find inexcuseable are normal. Look at the Spainish Inquisition, and you have a good comparision for Mugabe.

If your average life expectancy is 39, all of a sudden having a family started at 12-14, much like medivial times, make sense, and yet we view this as child molesting.

We are facing a real problem, trying to impose 21st values, on a 14th century country, and people.



GS

quote:

Originally posted by GS:
I'm getting a bit sick of us messing in Africa at all. The name may change, but the poverty and death stay the same, or get worse.

I'm unconvinced South Africa is better off now then prior. I'm unconvinced that any government replacing Mugabe is going to be better then the existing one.

The entire process of identifying 'criminals' in Zim is suspect to me. We send other governments money, with strings attached, and, they pocket the money. They are now criminals for failing to take the money we send them, and using the way we tell them. In other words, they refuse to be puppets. I really wonder if they even understand the strings attached to our 'gifts' to these countries.

I have lately been in areas, such as Hunter's Point in San Francisco, that would greatly benefit from our foreign aid money.
It seems to me we have an obligation to raise the bottom bar of existence in our own country, prior to trying to be Big Brother to the world.

On the otherside, the greatest threat to my real intrest in Africa is over population. By giving aide to Africa, we increase the population, and decrease habitat for the animals many enjoy. I realize this is a real moral position:
On one hand I would let people starve who would overpopulate, and destroy their own wonderful country, and in the end, themselves, for the sake of lower life forms. On the otherhand, perhaps the only moral justification can be that having a beautiful Africa, rather then a giant ghetto, would be for the benefit of mankind in the long run, rather then the short term view of a generation.

What I like about Bush's action is rather then giving,spending MORE money, he is depriving the heads of state of their
money.

I'm not sure I suscribe to the theory that the 'poor, down trodden African's' are being abused by Mugabe, and his thugs. Certainly in our own country, we get the government we deserve, by our own participation and choice, of location, and actions in politics. If Washington D.C. elects a cocaine addict, Marion Barry, then they can probably expect a corrupt
city head.

Likewise, Mugabe was put in by his own people, and, perhaps he was the BEST choice the people had at the time.

For a bit of perspective: Mugabe led his people to 'freedom' in 1980, 25 years ago.
George Washington and company, freed the US from British rule in about 1776-1780. Let's say the later, for even numbers.
Why do we expect morality and ethics we impose, to be the same in a country that has been 'free' only 25 years, vs. one that has been free for 225 years?

gs

Actually, the Poms were hoping to install Nkomo (having already done a deal with him), but Bobby tricked them at the ballot box. The sad thing was, Ian Smith had already gone, and Rhodesia already had elected a black Prime Minister, Bishop Abel Muzorewa, but the UN and Poms insisted on new elections. And, under the inept supervision of Lord Soames, they got stuck with 'Dictator for life' Bobby.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

I know. History isn't hard to find on the net, and Zim seems a popular topic.

I think the real problem is we've become so politically correct that we are afraid to revist racial, or tribal, stereotypes.

I guess after 30 years of liberal bull, it's really starting to rankle the education liberals. Despite
30 years of 'improved' education, blacks are the majority of Special Education students, and, despite all those liberal education genius ideas, the poorer black districts continue in the cellar of the Kalifornia education systems.

Oakland has finally decided to go to what is 'an academy' model; or dividing high schools up, so we have vocational schools for groups that can't seem to budge from the cellar of the API scores.

It that's true here, I wonder about perhaps the same being true in Africa?

Guess I'm not supposed to say that...

Mugabe: A Zim elephants hope:

http://www.news24.com/News24/Africa/Zimbabwe/0,,2-11-1662_1811042,00.html

gs

Didn't have to google this, I have a few friends who lived it, and then came to OZ in search of something better.
For now, it would seem they chose wisely.
Who knows what the future holds? I just hope that for Zim, it doesn't get any worse, before it gets better.

Cheers, Dave.
Non Illegitium Carborundum

It seems to me that everytime a country goes to Black rule that it goes down the drain.
Go figure.
The RSA is going through that now. Namibia is just on the fringes of land seizures now that SWAPO has had time to run the country awhile. Zambia and their once thriving Copper mines. On and on it goes.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cunningham:
It seems to me that everytime a country goes to Black rule that it goes down the drain.
Go figure.

Sadly, you are 100% correct.

quote:

Originally posted by Tembo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cunningham:
It seems to me that everytime a country goes to Black rule that it goes down the drain.
Go figure.

Sadly, you are 100% correct.

Why is this a shock? Often the blacks have not been educated during the white rule, and the result is you have a LOT of hostitlity towards white, and a vacum for how to manage a country?

GS

quote:

Why is this a shock? Often the blacks have not been educated during the white rule, and the result is you have a LOT of hostitlity towards white, and a vacum for how to manage a country?

I'm sure there are some openings for teachers over there. Hmmmm, maybe you should start in New Orleans?

Actually, saying it is the white man's fault for not educating the black population is a trifle patronizing. It is also hard to both demand and reject paternalism at the same time.

I give the present political leaders in Africa credit for knowing exactly what it is they want, and then ardently pursuing their goals.

As for me, I'm afraid that I will live long enough to see the entire human population south of the Sahara (less those who emigrate) die of disease, famine, war and corruption.

lawndart

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:

quote:

Why is this a shock? Often the blacks have not been educated during the white rule, and the result is you have a LOT of hostitlity towards white, and a vacum for how to manage a country?

I'm sure there are some openings for teachers over there. Hmmmm, maybe you should start in New Orleans?

Actually, saying it is the white man's fault for not educating the black population is a trifle patronizing. It is also hard to both demand and reject paternalism at the same time.

I give the present political leaders in Africa credit for knowing exactly what it is they want, and then ardently pursuing their goals.

As for me, I'm afraid that I will live long enough to see the entire human population south of the Sahara (less those who emigrate) die of disease, famine, war and corruption.

lawndart

I don't need to go anywhere to teach young black students, in high school, that read at between 1-5 grade level, and have math skills about the same. That's what I do.

The only really liberal excuse I can come up with, that might hold ANY real water, is that when survival skills are required going from home, to school, and back, and, your life is consistently threatened by rival gangs, or tribes, you tend to think school is not important(something I combat with my kids by simply saying, and meaning,

"NOTHING I do is more important then teaching you to improve your reading skills."

My kids now argue the same line, to other, new students.

Now, if they paid me more then a busboy, I would stay...

By the way, the alternative to blaming the whites, is to blame the students, and, someone needs to face that reality, sometime...

Gs

I know the feeling. I did some time (six years) as an emergency department and critical care doc in the hoods.

I was paid very well at the time. Worked some long hours too. I walked away when I realized that my vocabulary was withering from disuse.

Had a banger wave his blue hankie at me one night and say, "ya 'no what dis mean, mo' fo'"?
"Ya', it mean yo' goan' take id up de' ass from some old cho'mo (child molester) when yo' go to de' yard (medium security prison)". Oopsie, burnout time.

You are on the right track Gs; learning to read is the first step out of that life.

lawndart

GS: Great long and informative post, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to "read between your lines" and sway me to validate comparing Mugabe to George Washington, and I still stand by my statement regarding Zimbabwe and the overall well being of Zimbabweans, both black & white when Smith was there. It's speculation, but the winds of change I am sure would have pushed his government to majority rule instead of what you have now. Personally, I think africa will always be africa. Like another posted alluded to Even South Africa is going down the tubes after majority rule. jorge

GS=BS.

.

Whatever

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
GS: Great long and informative post, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to "read between your lines" and sway me to validate comparing Mugabe to George Washington, and I still stand by my statement regarding Zimbabwe and the overall well being of Zimbabweans, both black & white when Smith was there. It's speculation, but the winds of change I am sure would have pushed his government to majority rule instead of what you have now. Personally, I think africa will always be africa. Like another posted alluded to Even South Africa is going down the tubes after majority rule. jorge

I agree.