The CIC Trophy Measuring System: The Way Forward
By Tamás Marghescu

In the past years – essentially since the General Assembly in Belgrade 2007 – many discussions, often controversial, took place. Now is the time to draw a synthesis of the results and inform the members about the way forward.


At the 56th General Assembly in Paris (2009) the CIC members formulated Resolution CIC GA56.RES01 (CIC Trophy Measurement System) and:

1) recognized that the CIC needs to regain and retain a global leadership position in the scientific evaluation of sustainable trophy hunting through the establishment and administration of a database of hunting trophies

2) reconfirmed the Limassol Declaration with regard to the misuse of the CIC Trophy Measurement System

3) called upon national trophy measurement groups to actively engage with the trophy task team to produce a successful outcome

More HERE

WHY? ? ? ? There is already SCI, Roland Ward, the South African Method and Boone and Crockett. If memory serves, New Zealand also has a method. Once again, the "hunting world" dividing itself.

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
WHY? ? ? ? There is already SCI, Roland Ward, the South African Method and Boone and Crockett. If memory serves, New Zealand also has a method. Once again, the "hunting world" dividing itself.

I think is a good move Scriptus read the link first is not a new system but standardisation based on existing system!
Cheers

Personally I like the PHG (PH Guess) method which tends to stretch the trophy to the maximum and sometimes over.

quote:

Originally posted by freischuetz:

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
WHY? ? ? ? There is already SCI, Roland Ward, the South African Method and Boone and Crockett. If memory serves, New Zealand also has a method. Once again, the "hunting world" dividing itself.

I think is a good move Scriptus read the link first is not a new system but standardisation based on existing system!
Cheers

Actually it's more like an agreement to get together sometime in the future to talk about standardizing all the different systems so that the top trophies can be more adequately recognized; for a fee!

And in THREE languages.

Yep, this is the way forward. YGBSM!

And isn't that Roy Weatherby in the picture, not some guy from Texas?

My personal opinion on the The Way Forward in regards to Trophy animals is the WGARA system, otherwise known as the Who Gives a Rats Ass system. It takes out of account the length of the longest horn, the thickness of bases, and spread. It also has no 'circles' or any other means whereby hunters may segregate themselves from one another. It bans the upload of hunting videos showing impact shots or dead lions with their eyes rolled back in their heads to YouTube or any other online service. Any video that is uploaded and contains the phrase "Woo Hoo" or includes a scene where a hunter is seen fist-pumping and saying "Yeah Yeah YEAH!" will be immediately removed by force.
Oddly enough it only takes into account the intangible meaning of the hunt to the hunter. WGARA is doomed for failure on its face but has an excellent long-term prognosis for success once it is implemented on a wider basis.


I think I better lay off the coffee...

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
My personal opinion on the The Way Forward in regards to Trophy animals is the WGARA system, otherwise known as the Who Gives a Rats Ass system.

I think that is the best system I have ever heard. In second place would be the PHG! They both have worked well for me. I think we should standardize them into several "Primitive Peoples" languages; at least 5 or 6. Let's pass AR 12345.789-WTF.WHO-Cares resolution to make plans to phone each other to talk about getting together for coffee and discuss when we are going to hold the official meeting to establish the schedule of meetings to Blah, Blah, Blah....

It's funny you know. About 25 years ago I was really into remote controlled airplanes. I read the magazines about who won what competition and so on. Most "big timers" were in the LA area. I got transferred, in the Navy, to El Toro Marine base in Orange County. Went out to an often referred to field called "Mile Square Park" to fly one day. Immediately recognized several guys there from pics in the magazine. I pulled out one of my planes and was immediately set upon by two of these fellows claiming that the company that supplied my kit stole their rights and that I owed them a royalty, etc, etc.

All I could think about on the drive back home was, "aren't these things toys and isn't this stuff for fun"?

Just goes to show you, snobbery knows no bounds!

Cheers,

Todd

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
My personal opinion on the The Way Forward in regards to Trophy animals is the WGARA system, otherwise known as the Who Gives a Rats Ass system. It takes out of account the length of the longest horn, the thickness of bases, and spread. It also has no 'circles' or any other means whereby hunters may segregate themselves from one another. It bans the upload of hunting videos showing impact shots or dead lions with their eyes rolled back in their heads to YouTube or any other online service. Any video that is uploaded and contains the phrase "Woo Hoo" or includes a scene where a hunter is seen fist-pumping and saying "Yeah Yeah YEAH!" will be immediately removed by force.
Oddly enough it only takes into account the intangible meaning of the hunt to the hunter. WGARA is doomed for failure on its face but has an excellent long-term prognosis for success once it is implemented on a wider basis.


I think I better lay off the coffee...

I like that.

quote:

Originally posted by freischuetz:

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
WHY? ? ? ? There is already SCI, Roland Ward, the South African Method and Boone and Crockett. If memory serves, New Zealand also has a method. Once again, the "hunting world" dividing itself.

I think is a good move Scriptus read the link first is not a new system but standardisation based on existing system!
Cheers

Yeah! Please excuse me for being a cynic, but I can just picture the SCI folk and the CHASA boys sagely nodding and saying "Yup, we will go along with this."

Just FYI: Rowland Ward started the measurement system to record where and when the best representative members of each game species had been located.

It didn't matter whether the animal had been fair-chase hunted, trapped, poached or died from natural causes.

It was all about the animal, not the hunter.

quote:

Just FYI: Rowland Ward started the measurement system to record where and when the best representative members of each game species had been located.

Pope and Young was started to show the viability of archery hunting as a method of conservation and and to maintain records of the health of wildlife. I knew the guy who started P&Y, Glenn St. Charles a little bit and that came from the horses mouth, so to speak.

One person a while ago mentioned hunters names should be removed from the record books, interesting idea.

quote:

New Trophy Measurement System (CIC)

CIC is like syphillus.......it may be "new" to you, but there's nothing new about it!

Brett

Glen St. Charles was a member of the B&C Club. The P&Y Club uses the B&C scoring system.

NEgative ghost-rider, Glenn started P&Y, held the first official meeting in what used to be Northwest Archery here in seattle. The measuring may have been copied after B&C but P&Y is strictly archery.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
NEgative ghost-rider, Glenn started P&Y, held the first official meeting in what used to be Northwest Archery here in seattle. The measuring may have been copied after B&C but P&Y is strictly archery.

Whet did I say he did not start P&Y???? A bow kill can be entered in B&C. P&Y uses the B&C system.

You are correct, misinterpreted post. mea culpa mea culpa...

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
My personal opinion on the The Way Forward in regards to Trophy animals is the WGARA system, otherwise known as the Who Gives a Rats Ass system. It takes out of account the length of the longest horn, the thickness of bases, and spread. It also has no 'circles' or any other means whereby hunters may segregate themselves from one another. It bans the upload of hunting videos showing impact shots or dead lions with their eyes rolled back in their heads to YouTube or any other online service. Any video that is uploaded and contains the phrase "Woo Hoo" or includes a scene where a hunter is seen fist-pumping and saying "Yeah Yeah YEAH!" will be immediately removed by force.
Oddly enough it only takes into account the intangible meaning of the hunt to the hunter. WGARA is doomed for failure on its face but has an excellent long-term prognosis for success once it is implemented on a wider basis.


I think I better lay off the coffee...

If you dont 'give a rats ass' then why cant hunters upload any video they damn well like??? I dont get it??

quote:

If you dont 'give a rats ass' then why cant hunters upload any video they damn well like??? I dont get it??

The not caring is to whether the damn thing makes the book, get it? The caring part is I detest hunters who freely post videos of incredibly stupid/inhumane/bubba-like activities that will negatively affect the non-hunting publics opinion of hunting. I am NOT talking about changing the minds of anti-hunters, can;t do it and it's a waste of time. BUT, to ignore the fact that hunting rests in the hands of the people who do not do it, but are OK with it is foolish. NEITHER side, anti-hunters or active hunters have enough of a majority to permanently win their side, it's the middle that always decides how things go in the long run. You convince enough ambivalent people it's wise to elect an inexperienced senator to president, you get what we have here now in the States. You convince enough non-hunters that the activities of hunters in general is more detrimental to an animal population that an benefit gained from proper balance, funds generated etc, hunting is gone. I give you the lion movie by the Joubert's as a perfect example of how this works.

We consider hunting a natural right, there are those who do not and until a majority of people so, hunters will have to, by their words and more importantly their deeds, work to convince those who do not hunt that their activity is moral, a benefit to the animals by way of a balanced population and habitat conservation, and not simply a cynical activity enjoyed by those who seek to gain the adulation of their peers. Failing this, one day we will only be using the past tense when we speak of hunting.

That's an anfractuous answer to a statement, but clearly you didn't get the major intent of my post.

Cheers,

_Baxter

I don't even know what CIC is.

I have the perfect method for scoring every ggame animal in the world.

How much fun I had on the hunt * The quality of the memories.

quote:

NEgative ghost-rider,

Top Gun forever

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:



to ignore the fact that hunting rests in the hands of the people who do not do it, but are OK with it is foolish.

You convince enough ambivalent people it's wise to elect an unexperienced senator to president, you get what we have here now in the States. You convince enough non-hunters that the activities of hunters in general is more detrimental to an animal population that a benefit gained from proper balance, funds generated etc, hunting is gone.


Cheers,

_Baxter

Baxter, I think those statements are very well said. Many people who do not hunt are OK with it, as you said, but less supportive of what they perceive as "Trophy Hunting". They don't understand the benefits of trophy hunting's focus on things such as passing on the younger, breeding animals in an attempt to take a mature, post breeding animal from the herd. The issue on this forum with shooting immature lions or mature lions with a pride instead of the older, post pride males is another example. A side effect of focusing on these older, more mature animals from a trophy standpoint is that it often makes sense from a management standpoint, and vice versa. Those are the POSITIVE aspects of "Trophy Hunting" but a hard sell to the public.

Those are only 2 beneficial examples of "Trophy Hunting". There are many more. IMO, the award programs make our sport competitive and play directly to the NEGATIVE aspects of "Trophy Hunting". An easier sell to the public at large. As you say, if you convince enough ambivalent people that our sport is immoral, then we will surely loose it.

The term "Trophy Hunting" makes a great sound bite for our opposition to use as a wedge against us with the general population. Who am I to tell anyone else what to do or what to believe? But it seems to me that hunting is one of the purest activities known to man. Obviously an ancient activity that predates history. It is not an artificial game made up to test our athletic or tactical prowess such as football, basketball, etc. It was and is, an activity that provides for basic needs in the form of sustenance. Obviously, we don't rely on hunting as such a primary means of procuring food today as we did in the distant past as other means are now available. But at the heart of it, the anti's objections are the killing of an animal. That's why they push the vegan lifestyle. But it doesn't matter if you purchase your steak prepackaged at the local supermarket, or hunt your own meat, an animal's life is sacrificed in order to provide sustenance. IMO that is why the non-hunting public is still supportive of hunting. Most folks enjoy a good steak and are just NOT going to give that up, regardless of who does the killing, just as long as they don't have to think about it too much.

If we move the perception of hunting from an activity based on pure and basic motivations toward being nothing more important than a competition, we will surely loose public support, and eventually our heritage. IMO, the award programs do just that; they make it a competition.

Apart from the typical European flair for bureaucracy, there doesn't seem to be anything particularly controversial...
The principal measuring methods for

- Western and Central European game - unchanged.
- North American game - Boone & Crockett Club.
- Central Asian game - largely unchanged.
- African Game - Rowland Ward.
- All trophies taken behind escape proof fence will be listed separately.
- The age of the animal will be included into the measuring sheets - methodology to be agreed.