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Suffering a bit from insomnia this weekend and ended up with my copy of "The Green Hills of Africa." Some of the things I read in this book leave me with a lot of questions. I know full well that Hemingway was a writer and I wonder how much license he took with the fact in this book. For instance, he shot a lot of game with the Springfield, including rhino and buffalo. From most of what I read here in AR nothing less than the .700 by Golly Double thumper magnum with custom loads with suffice for the mighty buff and here we have Papa knocking them off with the old '06. What gives? Oh, he also repeatedly states his utter contempt and intense dislike for the 470 ‘heavy rifle’ – what gives here? And another matter; he states several times he is using 220gr 'solids' in the '06. What and who has a 30 cal solid? Can they be purchased as both loaded ammo and bullets to handload? Don't intend to crank up another world war here as the one re the 45/70 in Africa but would like to know if anyone has any thoughts or comments on this. Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | ||
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TrapperP In another book he claims small bird shot in a shotgun is effective on following up leopard as well ...... | |||
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Hopefully Green Hills cured your insomnia. I like Hemingway, and love most any book about Africa, but found Green Hills absolutely painful!! | |||
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Solids (and FMJ) used to be quite a bit more common in smaller calibers, than they are these days. But you can still buy .30 cal 220 grs solids - at least Barnes sells them. I don't know of anybody who loads them in factory ammo, though. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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Barnes used to make them, true - but last couple of times I visited their website they listed them as not available. I can find a listing for Woodleighs (at $68.00 for 50!) but don't think I have ever actually seen any. As to the "Green Hills" and the insomnia, this is a very difficult book to read, for me at least. Not at all like reading "Use Enough Gun" etc. Just plain out and out no fun. I guess we will never know how much is fact and how much is fantasy but it sure does seem far fetched in a lot of the things he says they did. Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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Graf's website lists the Barnes 220 grs .308 cal Solids as available - can't tell whether they really are?? - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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If you think "Green Hills" is tough going, try reading "True at First Light". | |||
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The chapter about Hemingway finally taking his kudu is good stuff. All in all, the book is extremely boorish. After reading it, I can't imagine having to spend an entire safari with "Papa". "If you hunt to eat, or hunt for sport for something fine, something that will make you proud, and make you remember every single detail of the day you found him and shot him, that is good too." – Robert Chester Ruark | |||
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I'm sure Hemingway, like any author, embellished a lot of things. This book to me always had the ring of truth about it in which someone relatively new to a sport is feeling their way through it blindly. As to the 30/06 issue, I personally believe most of it. Teddy Roosevelt, if I remember correctly, did a lot the same thing. Thousands of African settlers commonly killed lion and buffalo with .303's and 8x57 because that's what they had and had not read all the press about double rifles in Express calibers. It's not what I would choose, but a 220 gr 30 cal solid has a high sectional density and would penetrate to beat the band. Keep in mind that this was a long time ago, and hunters were more naive of technology then. As to the availability of solids, they used to be a lot more common, and most major manufacturers loaded a 220 solid. You can buy them by the truckload right now at a few cents a round. All military ammo, including surplus, is loaded with solids, just not 220 gr. | |||
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If I remember correctly, he stated in the book that he did not like the .470 double, the particular one they had with them on that safari (he wasn't talking about big doubles in general), because he said the trigger pull was so hard. Personally, I think he used that as an excuse to not shoot/use it. IMHO, with his drinking, he probably wasn't in the best "state of mind" most of the time to be dealing with heavy recoil anyway. Just my opinion... -Bob F. | |||
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Woodleigh makes a 220 gr FMJ. I have also used a 220 gr FMJ from Norma in my .30-06. | |||
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Maybe Hemingway was a better shot than most or maybe he didn't feel the need for a bigger phallic symbol. | |||
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Say what you will about Hemingway,but I bet he never ran out of booze while in the bush. Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war; That this foul deed shall smell above the earth With carrion men, groaning for burial. | |||
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Way back when, I shot a few hippos with 220 grain Hornady FMJ's. I still have some. At 2,400 fps penetration is excellent. It's still only a .308 caliber 220 grain bullet though. I've used .30-06 w/ 180 grain Noslers on Lion too but like the settlers afore emntioned, that's what I had at the time.  Were I to do the same hunts today I would do it a bit differently. Rich Elliott Rich Elliott Ethiopian Rift Valley Safaris | |||
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A-Square used to load a 180 grain monolithic solid in .300 WinMag, I've still got a box. Don't know about a 220 grainer. _________________________________ AR, where the hopeless, hysterical hypochondriacs of history become the nattering nabobs of negativisim. | |||
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I read a lot. But Hemingway is boring and downright depressing. I tossed my copy of "Green Hills". If I saw life they way he did, I would have ended up as he did. There are better "reads" out there. | |||
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In her book "Hunting with Hemingway" his daughter Hilary notes that his stories were oft-times fictionalized and maybe-true, maybe-not. It is true that much of his writing takes place en-situ but was certainly affected by his affection for drink and for his own amusement. When the writing isn't what the reader needs it is best as dogcat has said to dispose of the book and move on. I like his writing. I don't like him as a person but I admire the drive that sent him to the reaches of the world in search of himself in the adventures he found. Frank | |||
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Yeah, Hemingway was such a terrible writer. It's amazing that he won the Nobel prize in literature. Or that his influence on the English novel, short story and prose writing in general, endures to this day. And yes, he used a 220 grain .308" solid on buff and rhino. As Bell proved long before Papa did, the proper placement of a high SD solid bullet can do wonderful things. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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MR. -  Give em` another round. Damn nice to hear a voice of reason in a sea of Whine. | ||
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Sorry if anyone misconstrued what I said into a dislike of Papa Hemingway - au contraire. I am well aware of his awards, of the great work he did. And I also will say there is a world of difference in reading say "For Whom the Bells Toll" and reading the "Green Hills." To argue otherwise is nuts. But I don't like much on television either, and I have a choice: Watch it, change the channel or turn it off. 'nuff said?  Lord, give me patience 'cuz if you give me strength I'll need bail money!! 'TrapperP' | |||
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Dogcat said, "If I saw life they way he (Hemingway) did, I would have ended up as he did." Amen, brother. Armed men are citizens. Unarmed men are subjects. Disarmed men are serfs. | |||
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i read every book of hemingway including the last edited by patrick one of hisson there are some mistakes but you can feel africa,you can feel the war and you can see his way of life i most of the books a way of life than most of us in this forums like.I only dont like his admiration for leftists and his disrepect for family.juan www.huntinginargentina.com.ar FULL PROFESSIONAL MEMBER OF IPHA INTERNATIONAL PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS ASOCIATION . DSC PROFESSIONAL MEMBER DRSS--SCI NRA IDPA IPSC-FAT -argentine shooting federation cred number2- | |||
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Didn't Hemingway win the Nobel Prize for "The Old Man and the Sea" which is an outstanding piece of literature. Also fiction. I also think "For Whom the Bells Tolls" is also first class. Also fiction. I can't remember the title but I studied in my final year of High School, his biography as an ambulance driver in WW1 on the Italian front. Along with other WW1 authors and poets. I enjoyed both "Green Hills .." and also "True at First Light", even though some parts are wearisome and inane. An interesting fact is he is reported to have disagreed his the Nobel Prize selection and said Karen Blixen should have won. Her "historical" accounts in Africa are also full of a lot of fiction and fictionalised truth. Read these accounts for enjoyment, not as Gospel history. *** A better question is, was Phillip Percival having it off with Hemingway's wife in "Green Hills ..." while he was off hunting by himself? | |||
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Hemingway is my favorite author, but I have to admit that "The Green Hills of Africa" is not, in my opinion, his best work. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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A Farewell to Arms | |||
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Yep, that's the one of course. Brain death 23 years later. | |||
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Hemingway describes the trigger pull on the .470 as being like "the last turn of the key on a can of sardines". I can't imagine a more colourful turn of phrase to describe the operation of a firearm. Of course, his descriptive ability was part of what made him the writer he was. Hemingway was a shameless self-promoter. How close the man was to the myth, we'll never know. Perhaps by the end, the man WAS the myth. I wish we had a writer of his stature today to extoll the hunting life. | |||
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Im not to sure he is wrong here inside 40 feet this will sure make a mess of a man and that is a fact. buck shot is probably better but an ounce and9/16 of steel 2 will sure ruin someones day ive seen it. VERITAS ODIUM PARIT | |||
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CRUSHER I agree! My good friend killed a very big sow brown bear with 2 charges of Mag #4 at a distance of about 6 feet. Of course 00 buck would be better. BTW I started reading "The Green Hills of Africa" again and it's a good story about the frustrations one may encounter on a hunt. I find it a very good read. Regards, Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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<<<<CRITIC'S CORNER>>>> Hemingway was nothing but a druken fraud, who loved to blow his own horn! Anyone who believes anything he had to say about African hunting to be good advise is as naieve as he was! Hemingway was only in Africa once, and was drunk most of the time he was there, IMO. The fact that a drunk chose to shoot a Buffalo with a 30-06 is no reccomendation for someone else to commit the same crime. When a self promoteing person tells you he has done something we all know is not wise, or legal today, copying him doesn't seem like the thing to do! As far as the trigger on a 470NE double being as hard as the last turn on a sardine can key, is rediculous. I believe he was simply afraid of the double, and chose to down grade it's quality, rather than shoot it. The 30-06 is what would have scared a person who knew anything about Buffalo, and Rhino,who also had a brain not soaked by booze! He did write some "GOOD" fiction, but Green hills was not one of them, and it was fiction for the most part, as were all his books! The same people who put PHC down as a fictionalist,or druken liar, yet choose to believe anything Hemingway had to say about anything, absolutely amazes me! Hemingway was simply a gutter drunk who got lucky! As far as haveing a writer today to extoll the hunting life, there are plenty who can make up crap about a "MYTHICAL" experience, as Hemingway did, who are far better writers, and, at least, know more about African hunting, and firearms used in that persuit! Certainly far more deserving of a Nobel Prize for litrature than Hemingway! <<<< THAT'S MY REVUE>>>>  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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I recommend this book for anyone that would like to learn more about Hemingway's time spent in Africa: Hemingway in Africa: The Last Safari by Christopher Ondaatje Hardcover: 237 pages Publisher: Overlook Press (May 1, 2004) Language: English ISBN: 1585675393  From Amazon.com: Editorial Reviews From Booklist Ondaatje, author of seven books (including Sindh Revisited, 1996, and Journey to the Sources of the Nile, 1998), follows in the footsteps of Ernest Hemingway's two African safaris, undertaken in the mid-1930s and mid-1950s in Kenya, Tanzania, and Uganda, to uncover new insights into Hemingway's life and writings. Thanks to a wealth of photographs of Hemingway on safari as well as of modern photos of East Africa, the reader is offered glimpses of the ambience and environment with which the great author surrounded himself in his egotistical quest for manhood and for artistic immortality. He was always dependent on and jealous of more accomplished hunters on his safaris--such as Bror Blixen (Isak Dinesen's husband) or Philip Percival, who was coaxed out of retirement to guide Hemingway's second safari in 1954. Ondaatje is as much of a romantic as his subject, and in uncovering various letters and early influences, he fleshes out a picture of the great author as an adventurer in spirit, though flawed by his own ego and alcoholism. Allen Weakland - Copyright American Library Association. All rights reserved.  Hemingway in Tanganyika, East Africa, January 1934 -Bob F. | |||
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Class: American Literature 101 Student: MacD37 Professor Mrlexma Grade: D- This was a disappointing effort. First--and we have had this discussion previously--your abysmal spelling and sentence structure undermine any claim you may have to authoritative literary criticism. Your thesis, which appears to have been that Hemingway was simply a gutter drunk who got lucky, was colorfully advanced, but in the end, it amounted to little more than a poorly argued and unsupported ad hominem diatribe. As to your criticism of Hemingway’s choice of dangerous game rifle, I must say that I find it anachronistic and revisionist. You fail to address the obvious ballistic counter-argument that the 220 grain solid in the .30-06 was capable of great penetration and was used by many hunters, including many of great stature, such as Theodore Roosevelt and Stuart Edward White. I expect a better effort from you on your next paper--although I have already expressed my skepticism concerning your choice of thesis, namely, that "Shakespeare was simply a gutter drunk who got lucky!"--and I have likewise expressed my doubts about the strength of your subsidiary argument that the Immortal Bard's choice of a wheel lock dangerous game harquebus over a match lock was inadvisable. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Mr.  ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Yes, I gave up, I'd had enough of Miss Mary etc. JL | |||
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I like Hemingway’s African writings and some of his other fiction. A lot of people I know don’t like scotch or good cigars some of them are even friends. Ruark liked Hemingway he never met him but saw him in a café once. He did not go over to his table out of respect. The timeline of some of the African writers is note worthy. The certainly knew of each other. One of Hemingway’s short stories is probably based on Patterson. Dinesen. Isak (Baroness Karen Blixen) 1885-1962 Ernest Hemingway 1899-1954 Robert Ruark 1915-1965 Theodore Roosevelt 1858-1919 J.H. Patterson 1867-1947 Baron Bror von Blixen 1886-1946 “The past is another country they do things differently there†"He must go -- go -- go away from here! On the other side the world he's overdue. 'Send your road is clear before you when the old Spring-fret comes o'er you, And the Red Gods call for you!" Rudyard Kipling - 1887 - The Feet Of The Young Men | |||
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Outstanding! | |||
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Sorry to dig out this old thread but.... I am not ashamed to say that Green Hills of Africa is one of my favorites. However, it is definatly not for everyone. There is good, and there is bad in this book. You must read it more than once to appreciate it, and to ignore it's faults. The Good: This book does an outstanding job of taking you inside the frustrations and challenges of pursing a Trophy game animal! Some of Hemingway's comments and inner thoughts will give you a good laugh. The descriptions of the country and the struggles with the terrain really put you into Hemingways boots. If your like me, the book will also make you lust for a Griffin & Howe 1903 Springfield sporter. The relationship with Hemingway and his tracker grows as they gain respect for one another. The genuine passion for unspoiled nature is evident in his words. Now the Bad: At several points during the book Hemingway will go off into deep conversations about literature and other writers ect. This part ruins it for most readers because it takes you completly out of the setting and is quite difficult to get through. To be honest, the best approach is to skip past these parts and get back to the main plot. I have read the book enough times so that when the Literature discussion begins I know exactly how many pages to skip over, bypass it completly, and return to the story. The Character of Pop the Proffesional Hunter is not given much of anything to do. His presence is that of a reasuring voice in times of doubt, and a director of sorts to the Safari. He lacks charisma, charm or any kind of depth. The reason for this is because we enter the story after the Safari has been underway for quite some time. Consequently no introduction or backstory is given for the characters, only the events that take place in the narrative. This book is not a Capstick style action packed fight with charging dangerious game. It is better than most modern safari books about a quest to shoot one of everything on your species check list. I most recently re-read the book during the course of our last White-tail deer season. Is was a tough season full of disappointment. All the signs were there, but I kept coming up empty handed. Two weeks before the season ended I finally got the very nice 10pt I was looking for. Reading Green Hills of Africa during the course of that deer season gave me a new appreciation for the hard work, failure, and triumph Hemingway endured during the course of the novel. Try reading or re-reading the book yourself, and take my advice on the Good and Bad points listed above. Hopefully you will enjoy it as much as I do. | |||
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I had a client (just last year) grab the wrong rifle on the first day of his safari. Instead of his .375, he grabbed his .7mm in his excitement. He fired one shot at a big buffalo bull; and the bull ran into a sea of very high grass! There was lots blood. I then noticed his gun. I asked "what gun is that?" He (sheepishly)said "Oh, the 7mm". I took my trackers into the grass. The bull did not go far, and was very dead from a single 7mm (soft point!!)round. I too tried several times to read EH's Green Hills. Never could get through it. Its difficult to enjoy with all the "Pop did this.....Mama did that" stuff. Bit boring. The only thing he wrote that I remotely enjoyed was "The old Man & sea" | |||
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"The Green Hills of Africa," has to be the worst book ever written by someone recognized as the greatest writer in the world! In it, Hemingway comes across as possessing all the charm of a pompous professor of literature at Oxford, while berating anyone in the literary world that disagrees with any of his tenants of creative writing. His conversation while sharing a campfire with a fellow adventurer would have been enough to send anyone in the guest's position screaming into the bush in an attempt to rid himself of the incomprehensible drivel being poured into his ears from Papa's mouth. Ernest Hemingway was the greatest writer of fiction of his era (and most anyone else's era, too), but when it came to chronicling non-fiction events, like his 1933 safari, he lagged well behind Ruark, Capstick, and even Gene Hill (my personal favorite). | |||
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