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Originally posted by safari-lawyer:

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Originally posted by fairgame:

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Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
I'll be joined by a fascinating PH in Ethiopia in a couple of months. Opted to hunt both areas in Cameroon with Zim PHs as well. When we head to Uganda in March . . . it will be with Zimbos again.

I'd say, as a whole, Zim produces the most above average to outstanding PHs. There are plenty of great PHs in every country where there is a reasonable amount of organized hunting, but Zim certainly stands out.

Hi Will,

I would have thought the ridged Zim PH examination and conditions were far removed from the high icy peaks of the Bale mountains?

Good luck in Ethiopia. Note your PH here will be a national as foreign PHs cannot conduct safaris in country.

Fascinating.

Will,
Sometimes logic is bewildering.....

Some are getting way too bent out of shape here. No one is saying there are not good PHs in other countries. There are most certainly good PHs in other countries. No one and no country is being disparaged here.

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Originally posted by larryshores:
Some are getting way too bent out of shape here. No one is saying there are not good PHs in other countries. There are most certainly good PHs in other countries. No one and no country is being disparaged here.

Precisely. Sort of like saying what country has the best medical care . . . just because someone says the United States (or the UK, or Canada, or wherever) does not mean that good medical care and wonderful doctors are not available in many other places. Sometimes outfitters need to think twice about what they post on line since occasionally it does not cast them in the best light but comes across as petty. Just a thought.

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Originally posted by Bockhunter:
[i]In Germany we have an hunters education witch take some months and ends with an long examination. Maybe this gives us an more realistic look.

Absolutely correct. Just to be a hunter in Germany, one must go through more extensive training and testing than PH/guides are required to do in almost any other country.

This is not a bad thing either, as the Germans I have shared hunting camps with are very selective about the animals they hunt, only take ethical shots, show great respect and admiration for every animal they kill, are conservation minded, and find purpose in keeping the old-world hunting traditions alive. Perhaps this is why the German people hold hunters in high regard, no matter what one's political affiliation is. Unlike America, Australia, and some other European nations where hunters are scorned by a large part of the population. Waidmanns Heil!

Thank you.

I was in some camps with americans (or in other camps, sport, school in the 70tys and 80tys, pp.) and these are pretty cool gentelman also.

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Originally posted by desert dog:

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Originally posted by Bockhunter:
[i]In Germany we have an hunters education witch take some months and ends with an long examination. Maybe this gives us an more realistic look.

Absolutely correct. Just to be a hunter in Germany, one must go through more extensive training and testing than PH/guides are required to do in almost any other country.

This is not a bad thing either, as the Germans I have shared hunting camps with are very selective about the animals they hunt, only take ethical shots, show great respect and admiration for every animal they kill, are conservation minded, and find purpose in keeping the old-world hunting traditions alive. Perhaps this is why the German people hold hunters in high regard, no matter what one's political affiliation is. Unlike America, Australia, and some other European nations where hunters are scorned by a large part of the population. Waidmanns Heil!

I don't think you can compare other countries hunter training or ethics so easily as Bockhunter and Desert dog are asserting. Yes the German hunter education training is very involved and long winded if I can call it that and there is a fairly formidable examination to pass at the end of the training but a lot of the training involves knowledge of biology, music, hunter speak and traditions. There is practical training too on the range and i observed some pretty poor shooting by some who were training on the range. Some in the field were not that good either. I spent a year in West Germany hunting with friends and at times on my own. I had a Jagdschein (the German hunting licence). While many of the traditions are 'quaint' and very class orientated, yes hunters are respected in Germany, mostly they are the rich and influential who have the greatest interest in maintaining the hunting system and German law also places hunting to the forefront. Even during World War II hunting was maintained very well in Germany especially due to Goering who was an avid hunter and firearms collector.
The intensive hunter training in Germany does not necessarily make skilled hunters of everyone. Many do not actually shoot many animals a year or in their lifetime. By the time I went to Germany I had shot many, many animals under all conditions we shoot here in NZ. Starting as a young school boy I had experience with many running shots on deer and similar animals, night shooting with spot lights, multiple animal or mob shooting, etc, etc, so I found shooting in Germany relatively easy and controlled. This is not knocking the German hunting system but it is quite a different system to other countries around the World.

At the end of the day in a country such as NZ where access to public hunting areas and game animals is free, there is no season, no restriction on age, sex or numbers of animals that can be taken at any time, no music, no hunter speak, no traditions, just find shoot gut and eat or sell, a hunter has much more opportunity to develop their skills in stalking and shooting than probably in any other country of the World.

BTW hunters are respected but not put on a pedestal here, we are just part of the landscape. Hunters will drive through towns and cities as they return from hunting with dead animals on their vehicles in full view of the public and there are a good number of hunting and shooting programmes on our TV showing all the guts and glory. I have even seen TV programmes showing young kids out pig hunting with their father and friends and sticking pigs with a knife while the animal is held down by dogs. The squealing pig and spurting blood is not for everyone but these programmes are on during viewing time of children. Just part of our life and culture, may it well continue.

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Originally posted by eagle27:
I found shooting in Germany relatively easy and controlled. This is not knocking the German hunting system but it is quite a different system to other countries around the World.

This is because Germany is a small country (size of the state on Montana) with 83 million people crammed into it (Montana has barely 1 million people).

With such an huge population living in such a small country, it is absolutely amazing that they can manage and maintain any productive hunting grounds. Because of this, you really cannot compare hunting opportunities in NZ, America, or Africa to what is available in Germany. Training has nothing to do with the types of hunting available in any country.

Germany is a real testament to successful game management. If Zimbabwe had 83 million people in it, there would be no animals left to hunt.

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Originally posted by desert dog:

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Originally posted by eagle27:
I found shooting in Germany relatively easy and controlled. This is not knocking the German hunting system but it is quite a different system to other countries around the World.

This is because Germany is a small country (size of the state on Montana) with 83 million people crammed into it (Montana has barely 1 million people).

With such an huge population living in such a small country, it is absolutely amazing that they can manage and maintain any productive hunting grounds. Because of this, you really cannot compare hunting opportunities in NZ, America, or Africa to what is available in Germany. Training has nothing to do with the types of hunting available in any country.

Germany is a real testament to successful game management. If Zimbabwe had 83 million people in it, there would be no animals left to hunt.

I was not knocking the German hunting system and agree entirely that is a very successful example of game management. You are correct that it is a small country with a large population. When I was there West Germany (before the Wall came down) was almost identical in landmass size to New Zealand and had a population of 70 million compared with New Zealand's population at the time of 3 million, therefore you needed a very good management system to ensure the longevity of hunting.

My point was that the German hunter training and licensing system did not necessarily make for better hunters in terms of stalking and shooting game.The German hunter may have all the theory but many never get the level of practical experience that hunters in other countries do.

I have entertained quite a few out here in NZ and some of them emigrated here. Funnily enough they very quickly ditched the German hunting greens as their clothing was just not waterproof and most got rid of their double set triggers as they were a PITA for our style of shooting. They also got rid of their high mounted scopes and went to the low Weaver rings and bases, plus embraced the plastic stock where they could.

I remember when in Germany sitting hacksawing and filing away at a high class expensive German or Austrian scope with a fixed rail because my forester friend who had hunted in NZ by then, want to mount it in Weaver rings and bases which I had to send for from NZ. I couldn't convince him to leave it be and get another scope, he really liked the reticule but wanted the low mounting system then and there.

The way I understand it, Zim does have the most rigorous process for becoming a PH. This in no way means that the PH has a great personality or is going to be your first choice to spend two weeks with!!

This discussion underscores the importance of the PH on your hunt.

Jack Atcheson, Jr. taught me to pick a great PH, as opposed to looking at a the outfitter first. In all countries, there are standout PH's who are at the top of their game. That's who you want to hunt with!

Have yet to meet a hunter who did not think his PH / tracker was not the best in the world - if he had a great hunt . We have debated this around campfires throughout africa , I dont think there is any better tracker than the Botswana Bushman having hunted Namibia , Tanzania , Mozambique , South Africa.
One of the best PH's that I accompanied on a hunt for elephant in Botswana was a South African, he was great with clients , had excellent Zulu trackers who did not only track but fixed and prepared vehicles and looked after clients , and he could call most species to the 1/8 th of an inch . I had Zim , Nam , Moz , Tz ph's come with clients to hunt elephant and some were good and some I would never let back on the concession. Like my Zambian colleague stated - the job of a PH is not to track but to co-ordinate everybody in the hunt to have a successfull and enjoyable hunt , as I hunted with bushman trackers I would be an absolute idiot to think I could track with them , I would slow them down and only egotistic PH's tried to show off and try track with our Bushman , I think when hunting dangerous game a PH should be watching ahead not looking down at the ground . Less than 2% of people who wrote the Botswana PH exam passed and most failed including Zimbos , there were less than 50 in the whole country who achieved their license and some of the biggest names in the industry could not pass the exam . Some wrote it three times before passing . But the best PH is the one that gives the hunter the best hunt .

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...... the job of a PH is not to track but to co-ordinate everybody in the hunt to have a successfull and enjoyable hunt , as I hunted with bushman trackers I would be an absolute idiot to think I could track with them ....

A PH worth his salt should be able to identify tracks (an exam requirement if not mistaken), know the difference between the track left by a wounded animal and one which is not; if it is on the run, grazing or on the move with an appointment to keep.
Some PHs can be very capable at tracking while others less but however unlikely to ever match the skills of the Bushman or Ndorobo tribesman who are in a class of their own.
A PH who relies totally on his trackers is IMO living in ignorant bliss and not worthy of his title.

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Originally posted by fairgame:
This is quite a shabby generalisation and there are very renowned PHs throughout Africa and not one can out track or has the vision of a well qualified African tracker of which there are plenty.

You would need to have hunted all countries in order to make this assessment and then maybe consider which country can boast the safest history in DG hunting and one that does not suffer persistent accidents by client or PH.

Whilst Zim has some outstanding PHs I assure you a good quality PH does not need to track as an attribute to his skills in the field. Nor does growing up in Zim improve your eyesight.

Andrew's assessment is spot-on! I've never once seen a PH that can "track" like a GOOD tracker, not once. Zim does in fact produce plenty of exceptional PH's, I've hunted with plenty of them. But....Zambia, Namibia, TZ, Moz and several central African countries have some great PH's I too have hunted with. Andrew and I have spent plenty of days together in Zambia, he and his buddy Richard Bell-Cross are exceptionally good hunters.

Hands down - the best cat hunter I have ever hunted with is a member here on AR (Jan Dumon) who's from SA, and lord knows I've done my fair share of cat hunts!!! But Jan is definitely the best! Richard Bell-Cross is perhaps the BEST over-all PH I have hunted with ever, and he's from Zambia.

I've personally done 36 DG safaris of my own, I've been on numerous others with clients, and I spent time in 2010 acquiring my own full PH license in Tanzania. Zim seems to have more well known / traveling PH's than other countries - but I am not sure I would necessarily say they are "better". Rarely have I seen a "bad" PH, most have been highly qualified / and experienced in their area.

ON second thought, Mike Murray from SA - comes to mind as another "exceptional PH I have hunted with". We hunted together both in SA and Botswana, he was a passionate elephant hunter. He taught me patience when hunting jumbos. I simply wanted to shoot - he wanted to "hunt" elephants.