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Originally posted by Canuck:
I have exactly two shoulder mounts...both of them stone sheep. I also have a bear rug that dates back 21 years. That's it. I have kept almost all of my horns/antlers from 25 years of hunting, but the are boiled out "european mounts" at best.

I can afford to hunt or get taxidermy done. Not both. Mounts are nice, but I'd rather go hunting.

Cheers,
Canuck

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Any idea how I send you a PM on this new system?

Thanks,

Click 'Go' > 'My Space' > 'Private Messaging', then invite the person you want to contact to the topic.

George

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Originally posted by Canuck:
I have exactly two shoulder mounts...both of them stone sheep. I also have a bear rug that dates back 21 years. That's it. I have kept almost all of my horns/antlers from 25 years of hunting, but the are boiled out "european mounts" at best.
I can afford to hunt or get taxidermy done.
Not both. Mounts are nice, but I'd rather go
hunting.

Cheers,
Canuck

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Figured out the right buttons to push for the PM, you have one hopefully

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Originally posted by Hugh W:
Cheers. To hunt and kill trophy animals and not at least keep some momento is an awful waste. I am proud of being a hunter, but have a real problem with some of the opinions posted in this thread. Go to Africa. Enjoy. Arise and Kill. But do just a little more than kill, take a picture, and say Yeah I got that one! Atleast pay homage to the trophy. Who knows? Your trophy room may inspire a future hunter. Hugh

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That's your opinion. If you feel you need a mount on your wall to relive the moments of your safari, fine. After four safaris, I don't.

George

Hey if it's my safari and I paid for it as far as I'm concearned if what I do bothers anyone they can just piss off. LOL. If others want mounts then get them. I want photos and skulls. Maybe some of you guys have a piss poor memory but I certainly don't need to look at a mount to remember my hunt. Heck most of the time I forget the damn things are on the wall and I don't look at them anyways. I'd much rather go on another hunt than spend thousands in dipping, freight, taxidermy, etc etc etc.

Boy, am I glad I don't have any clients that feel the way you do! I guess they wouldn't be my clients then, now would they!

I do understand what some of you are saying, it is getting to be a real hassle getting the critters back, I swear people think hunters have a endless river of money!(meaning the costs of getting your trophies back). I go down to the airports and clear my clients shippents, mine included, I can't get over the bullshit charges! (Where it originated and final resting place) As for my clients, they don't have any hassle getting the trophies cleared, I do all that for them, if I'm doing the mounting, there is a very slight charge for this, not those full blown out "clearing agent" charges.

And as for the mounts, personally, I think it's a waste not to use the animal, but that's a personal thing. I enjoy walking into my living room and admiring the different animals from all over the world, I don't ever get tired of them! I don't just have the big trophies, I have things like Dassies, African Crested Porupines, Genets, a few different kinds of Mongoose, and some monkeys, it amazing the different critters through out the world! That my friends, intrests me alot!
And as for photo's, I think their great! Hell! I take on the average per trip, 1,600! Yes that's one thousand six hundred photo's! Taking just a photo of some trophies just doesn't do it justice!
It bothers me that some of you have no respect for the trophies you just took!

But that's my opinion..........

Looking forward to meeting alot of you in Reno!

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Originally posted by Widowmaker416:
Boy, am I glad I don't have any clients that feel they way alot of you do! I guess they wouldn't be my clients then, now would they!

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I'm not sure exactly what you mean but I can say I would have ZERO respect for a PH that would have even a mild problem respecting my wishes as the client. I think this is eaxacly why it is critcal to have a good conversation with the camp manager/owner/ph before you book. Discounted or not if you feel that strongly it certainly suggests to me that some camps profit from taxidermy/freight/dipping to the extent if you don't want this service they don't want you there. For me at least that puts the camps with this mentality at the very bottom of a list of undesireables.

Chuckwagon,

The statement I made, "You wouldn't be my clients" I'm a taxidermist here in the states, full time...... So if your not mounting your trophies, you wouldn't need my services. That's what I was saying.......

Nothing nasty was ever meant, there.....

And I do agree with you about the camp and PH's..

If you need to mount everything you must not hunt much or live in a warehouse. I looked around my house and tried to imagine where I could put one moose head, let alone the dozen or so we have taken.

To clarify and speaking for myself:

Had I the where-with-all to bring everything home to display it as I should like, while not adversely effecting the frequency of hunts, I would, to some degree. Circumstances dictated that I focus on hunting only those species I wanted most, not looking for or taking, all I might have. With each passing year, costs rise, limitations are exacerbated and adjustments continue, accordingly. In the same vein, I have nothing to prove to anyone and enjoy good photos. Should I find a special trophy, I'd certainly consider bringing it home. At home or abroad, our "Trophies" consist of horn, hide and heads,.. not nearly so important as is the fullest utilization of the flesh, which goes to the local people of the Communal lands / Campfire program. To my mind, this is what really matters. The hunt is enjoyed, the "trophy" aspect is satisfied and the animal is certainly not wasted.

Subordinate to the above, the freight company often makes more on the trophy than does the taxidermist ... a total joke. Some outfitters have their fingers in each and every pie, driving up costs, still further. They do indeed think we are all money cows, to be milked on the hour. It's true enough there will always exist men wealthy enough to hunt but 95% of the outfitters will fold. It shall be, once again, a sport of kings.

My experience on this subject is limited, but i do see a point. IF I was to the point of saturation with trophies ( I'm not there yet!) I could see my way of bringing pack just horns and skulls for the most part. I guess I would consider it almost criminal to do that to a lion, leopard or say, a Mt. Nyala. having said that, I find it equally wrong for a gent to start on his initial trophy hunting quest and NOT have any mounts done. Skulls just don't do it for me, that is why I am building a larger rophy room! jorge

jorge,

yes I agree, there's just some trophies you should mount, and not just the horns or skull.

i have clients that have alot of mounts, sometimes when they shoot bigger ones and they just don't have the place for a scond or third of tht speices, they have me switch horns on the mount. There's something to think about!

As much as I want to go to Africa the last thing I want is any African mounts. Its seems a total waste of $$$ to me. I have simply grown to appreciate european mounts more. A trophy room to me is absurd beyond my den. I do enjoy looking at them and I really enjoy the photos that others share of trophy rooms. Even if I won the 130 million dollar lotto it wouldn't change my opinion one bit. A photo works just as well for me. In fact the more I think about I think George was right and they should be burnt unless I get a discount for leaving them behind.

While I agree with the cost issue, space is an even bigger problem for me. I will probably not get any more mounts done, either here on from Africa. Spend that money on a top notch camera and lots of film and then have a starting point for the next hunt.

I have no mounted heads. But I do have some skulls with horns about.

Gentlemen:
Picture this.We have 17 African trophies including Cape Buffalo,Eland,2 Kudu,Waterbuck ETC. All shoulder mounts and all this in a 1,175 Square foot Ranch home with 7' ceilings.

Paul K

Paul- Thats the spirit! My home and office are stuffed! We occasionaly have folks over that are not hunters and they really seem to enjoy both home and office. We are currently trying to buy a condo a couple of hours away and it will take me 10 or 15 years to top it off! I coulld not imagine leaving animals.When I'm about to tip over we will arrange a donation so my kids can hopefully begin their own collections.

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Originally posted by Paul K:
Gentlemen:
Picture this.We have 17 African trophies including Cape Buffalo,Eland,2 Kudu,Waterbuck ETC. All shoulder mounts and all this in a 1,175 Square foot Ranch home with 7' ceilings.

Paul K

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Yep, me too. I guess it is time to put that addition on!

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Originally posted by Paul K:
Gentlemen:
Picture this.We have 17 African trophies including Cape Buffalo,Eland,2 Kudu,Waterbuck ETC. All shoulder mounts and all this in a 1,175 Square foot Ranch home with 7' ceilings.

Paul K

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Well done!

I could never leave the trophies behind. For me they`re an important part of safari memories. Like Nickudu states, it might be different when I grow up a bit..
I`ve already started to plan and save money to build a trophyroom in my house (I don`t own a house yet, and probably won`t in many years).
I know the shipping is pretty expensive, but apart from that, shouldermounts could be displayed (on most peoples budgets). But everyone needs to determine this for them self!

But the hunt is the most important!

I must also agree with vapodog. One representative example of the species is enough. Back home I hunt the same animals every year, but that`s something else. The hunts for theese animals is very inexpensive. When I go to Africa next time, I would not shoot some of the species I`ve already shot, unless it`s a monster-trophy.

A picture is worth a thousand words, especially with the digital slide shows these days, but having part of that animal near to you in 3D does bring Africa closer. What about making it a special gift to a father, uncle, friend, who loves Africa but you know will never be able to make the trip for health, age, or other reasons? I bet it would make them feel closer to Africa if it was an animal someone they cared about had taken.

Some of the opinions expressed above surely sound like some of you have nothing better to do today and want to start a "fight" so throw some "bait" out on AR and see who will bite!

And for those who think they should get a discount if they leave their trophies behind, stay at home.

George, perhaps you should have been/be more selective in the trophies you take on your hunting trips that way you won't have to leave too many behind Jokes aside, it sounds as if African hunting bores some of you

Bored by hunting in Africa ? NO! But the hassle of shipping trophies back and the raping you get for shipping agents and importers ain’t for the faint of heart. If or when I go back , I still plan to leave most, if not all of the horns and hides there. I, or someone I know, will eat every deer I’ve shot this year but I don’t plan to mount any of them.

I never really added it up before, but I am probably putting as much into taxidermy as I am into hunting. I have mounted quite a few of my African trophies life size, and that adds up to lots of space and lots of taxidermy cost. I could have done twice as much hunting if I had left the skins and horns behind. Yes, the charges for shipping are inflated. Every day when I look at my life size buffalo, I know that I enjoy that more than shooting another buffalo. To each his own.

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Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Some of the opinions expressed above surely sound like some of you have nothing better to do today and want to start a "fight" so throw some "bait" out on AR and see who will bite!

And for those who think they should get a discount if they leave their trophies behind, stay at home.

George, perhaps you should have been/be more selective in the trophies you take on your hunting trips that way you won't have to leave too many behind Jokes aside, it sounds as if African hunting bores some of you

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Sounds to me like you fit your own description of a fire starter. The only thing I find interesting about this at all is why any one else would really give a rip about what someone else does with their trophys. I'm entitled to my opinions just as you are. If I leave them behind to be sold then I expect a discount...LOMAO You really need to loosen the elastic on your shorts old boy !

If you decide to leave them behind AFTER the hunt and want the revenue from their sale, then you sell them and I will charge for storage

No offense but in Tanzania you can't sell unwanted skins/trophies to a taxidermist for several reasons:
1- There are no taxidermists
2- The paperwork to have this legally done would be too time consuming and costly.
3- Even if you could, the money you would get for them would not be worth the trouble.

In such a case, if I were an outfitter and a client tells me they don't want any trophy from their kills, then i would suggest we hunt for "non-trophy" representatives species and surely would think hard before offering some of the key species. JMO

I rather think you missed the point. The comment about a refund was a joke. As I suspect was burning them. LOL. If I choose to leave them behind I no longer would care what happened to them other than I would be pleased if the hides etc could be put to use. Personally I also do not like to shoot anything that won't be eaten but I try very hard not to impose my "morels" on any one else. I want to go to Africa for the experience and thrill of the hunt. I have no desire for African mounts. That's just me. I hope to find a outfitter who is completely fine with the fact that I only want to take home a few skulls and horns.

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Originally posted by Bwanamich:
In such a case, if I were an outfitter and a client tells me they don't want any trophy from their kills, then i would suggest we hunt for "non-trophy" representatives species and surely would think hard before offering some of the key species. JMO

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In such a case I would indeed expect to pay far less than the other chap you are taking on a "trophy" hunt. I think it far more likely that I/we would decide that we would make a poor client/outfitter pairing, assumeing of course that you are upfront enough to tell me this when your trying to sell me a hunt.

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In such a case I would indeed expect to pay far less than the other chap you are taking on a "trophy" hunt.

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Why? Does it cost less to feed & wine you if you are NOT hunting trophy species? Is it easier to shoot non-trophy species? Do non trophy species not come off my allocated quota? Will I not provide you with the same standard of service, attention, entertainemnet, facilities, etc?

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posted 21 January 2005 19:03
I rather think you missed the point. The comment about a refund was a joke. As I suspect was burning them. LOL

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Hey Chuck! what is this

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I think it far more likely that I/we would decide that we would make a poor client/outfitter pairing, assumeing of course that you are upfront enough to tell me this when your trying to sell me a hunt.

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The likelihood of that happening is very slim as I don't outfit nor am I an agent Don't take it personal Chuck, I'm just exchanging opinions.

Exchangeing opinions is what it's all about. To answear your question about provideing the same level of service IMHO the answear is a resounding NO ! You would not be provideing the same level of service if you refused to allow me to take a trophy of my choice even though I would pay the SAME trophy fee as the other fellow. How does that work ? Look Mr.CW theres a HUGE bull and a average one, Because I won't be able to profit from crateing, dipping, shipping, export fees your going to have to take the small one ??? LOL

I would also YES it is far easier to take a non-trophy of most species. Now if this is the way you really feel and you ever want to hunt whitetail in the US just let me know. The King Ranch charges around 20k for a 200" buck. For the same 20k you would be welcome to my camp, I'll even buy your airfare and you can have your choice of any spike.

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Originally posted by Bwanamich:
George, perhaps you should have been/be more selective in the trophies you take on your hunting trips that way you won't have to leave too many behind

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bwanamich,
I am pretty selective; if I wasn't, I'd have even more beasties to ship and mount at exorbitant rates, wouldn't I? On more than one occasion, I've turned down 'trophies' that were 'good for this area' because I wanted a trophy of a certain size or horn conformation.

Contrary to your apparently deeply held beliefs, clients are not a piggy bank to be tapped deeply by outfitters, taxidermists, and shipping agents. There is a limit, and for some, that limit has been reached or exceeded.

Non-trophy hunts should be less expensive, as should the trophy fees; while that may not be possible in a country like Tanzania, CAR, et al., it is possible elsewhere.
BTW, the markup on costs incurred for food, drinks, and laundry are more than amply covered by $50, let alone the $150-200 or more charged for observers, so don't make it sound like outfitters are losing money. The best hotels in these hunting coutries don't cost as much per night as the observer rates charged.

Finally, any outfitter or PH who charges full price and intentionally steers his clients to non-trophy specimens (without the client's explicit approval) is a thief and a charlatan.
Of course, since you are not an outfitter, that wouldn't apply to you, would it?

George

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Originally posted by ChuckWagon:
Exchangeing opinions is what it's all about. To answear your question about provideing the same level of service IMHO the answear is a resounding NO ! You would not be provideing the same level of service if you refused to allow me to take a trophy of my choice even though I would pay the SAME trophy fee as the other fellow. How does that work ? Look Mr.CW theres a HUGE bull and a average one, Because I won't be able to profit from crateing, dipping, shipping, export fees your going to have to take the small one ??? LOL

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CW, read previous posts on my resoning. My statement was done following the assumption that you HAD informed me in advance that you did not want to take any trophies back with you.

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Because I won't be able to profit from crateing, dipping, shipping, export fees

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If you think there is a large "profit" to be made than I'm not quite sure who you are used to dealing with but any outfitter would like to know your secret

When you are paying $50K for a 21 day hunt and your oufitter is worried whether he may or may not make a couple of "extra" hundred bucks then you erred in the first place.

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Originally posted by allen day:
Quite honestly, I'm tired of trying to figure out where to hang yet another trophy mount. I'm sick of taxidermy bills and would rather spend that money on more hunts. I'm also concerned about just how the heck I'm going to move the trophies I already have if I should ever move out of state, which is something I'm seriously considering.

Who else feels this way?

AD

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My Uncle, when he passed away, had 90 years of hunting and fishing trophies. ONE mounted 53 pound lake trout! There is not a thing wrong with trophy hunting, and keeping of trophies. Some people only keep the trophy of a lifetime, others keep a lifetime of trophies. And either is OK!! My Dad, passed away at 97, had only one trophy, a 6X6 elk that was very symmetrical, very even. Memories are the real trophies.

Bwanamich,

I have to agree with George on this..If the client has agreed or asked to shoot "cull" or non trophy animals, then they should be charged a much reduced trophy fee, if any at all.

And I would say that cull animals are easier to hunt simply because they should be more numerous than trophy quality animals. I think that holds true for 90% of the hunting where ever in the world.

Regards,

Pete

Pete,
I can see your point on the "reduced" trophy fees and I would think most reputable outfitters might consider such a request provided it is negotiated at the beginning.

As to "cull" animals being easier to hunt, I am not convinced. Seeing more animals doesn't necessary translate into success. The PH and client still have to work just as hard to get the opportunity to shoot the game.

And if your reasoning is right then by the same token the end of hunt "bag count" will be a lot higher than a "regular" one and will justify the outfitters' decision to keep the outfitting rates the same.

Happy hunting!

Bwanamich,

Surely the maximum size of the bag is agreed before the hunt starts, whether its a cull hunt or a trophy hunt? That agreement might well be supplimented with a clause that extra animals are available at $xxx or what ever, but just because its a cull hunt, I don't think anybody expects to be able to just keep shooting...

On a slightly different tack, are PH's/concession holders required to "cull" certain of the more numerious plainsgame species as part of the management plan of a concession?

Regards,

Pete

different countries have different regulations. In Tz for e.g. you buy a license which includes a variety of species. Then the operator will normally let you know which species he cannot offer on your hunt but normally one has an option of around 20-25 animals for a 21 day license. If you are trophy hunting, you might take 12-15 animals. On a cull hunt one would be expected to shoot in excess of 20.

Your 2nd question: There is no stipulation in Tanzania for concession holders to be able to cull, crop or shoot any of the animals in their concession. They can only do this if they buy their own hunting license and pay the other Gov fees attached to the license, etc (like a client). Certain Open Areas allow "resident hunting" as well as Tourist hunting and if the concession holder is a citizen/resident they may purchase a resident license (much cheaper)in their name and shoot a few animals (between 3-4). It can't be used as a management tool though.........having said that, some outfitters use this license to guide tourist hunters at great risk.

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Originally posted by Bwanamich:
As to "cull" animals being easier to hunt, I am not convinced. Seeing more animals doesn't necessary translate into success. The PH and client still have to work just as hard to get the opportunity to shoot the game.

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Rubbish. If that were true then every one of us would have record book animals instead of good representative examples. Any beast becomes more intelligent and alert with age adding to the difficulty of the hunt. More animals translates into a better opportunity ratio. Maybe you should be a outfitter and offer a 100% money back garuntee on 50" Cape Buffalo. Heck I'll even get the ugly buzzard mounted instead of putting my zippo to work !

What qualifies as a "good representative animal" for you? I see 1,000's of trophy photos that are labelled as "good representatives" when in fact most of them are immature!

trophy is not necessrily a "record book" specime. Take buffalo for example; a 36", hard bossed bull in anyones book is a "trophy" animal. I guess not in yours.


Ok Chuck, you win! You know more about hunting in Africa than all of us on this Forum.

The dip and pack and shipping, may be an added expence to a hunt. But if your not taking any part of the animal home with you other than a picture, what is the point of killing it? You may as well dart the animal and take a picture. I am not saying you have to have all your trophy's mounted, But show a little respect for the animal taken, after all it has given up it's life.If the only reason you kill the animal is for bragging right's then I question the reason for hunting. I can not leave behind the horns/antlers of any animal I have killed even when it is only a fork horn white tail that I shot for meat. As Canuck said holding the horns in my hands is a better reminder of the hunt than the pictures.