Hi! Since this community is very knowledgeable I'll ask you to help me with a question. I have an income level that would let me do one or two serious hunting trips in my life (been saving seriously for 4 years and way to go still...). Anyhow, I came to know a south African hunter (SA citizen) who loves to hunt. He and his family rent a farm for a few weeks hunting every year where they go hunting for eland, warthog and a few other species. Now he has invited me to join this hunt and since they sell the meat it would cost me not much more than the flight down there. So far - awesome possiblity!! I started to look at the rules for a non-SA resident to hunt there and got pretty confused. Tried to contact phasa but no response from them yet. So in short, would it be legal to join that hunt since there would be no registered ph? My friend would do the guiding. He is a good hunter but not a registered ph. Would it make any difference that he is renting the land and not the formal land owner? And in case this really happens and I manage to take an animal, would it be possible to export the trophy?

Thanks in advance!

I am sure some of our South African members will answer you.

But I think as a visiting hunter, you would need some paper work, and for that you most probably need the services of a professional hunter, especially as you wish to have your trophy exported.

Not 110% sure about all provinces (because I'm now retired from the business) but most if not all provinces require both a PH & Outfitter licenced to operate in that province.

I understand that a PH is required for a foreign hunter and certainly if you want to export a trophy.
That said, if you were willing to "fly below the radar" and just join in as one of the hunting party, you could easily get away with it.
Ask your friend if he does not have a young/ new PH friend who needs to get some clients in his hunting register and who would be willing to be part of the group at no charge and possibly in exchange for bagging an animal or two.

Most hunters who hunt in SA in generel know how to hunt. The huntinglaw in all SA dictates that no foreign hunter may hunt without a certified PH. The misunderstanding as I see it is it the cultural practice the PHs hunt and find the game for the foreign client. The pH just have to be in a visible and communitiv distance of the foreign hunter as I understand. To let the foreign hunter hunt and the PH is 20 steps behind in pg hunting wouldn´t be a problem.....just something we are not used to visualize. When I hunt here in Dk I don´t need trackers either. When the average SA goes hunting for a springbok or anything else in that size game he doesn´t use trackers either. hunting DG is ofcouse a different ballgame.

Just me PERSONALLY, if you find out it's legal to hunt with your friend:

If I were in your situation:

I would use his rifle(s). No need to hassle with/pay for a gun permit.

I would export only a ton of high quality photos of the animals I took. I assume you're in the US: Coming out of RSA, you could be pushing $1500-2,000 to get a box shipped, through customs and home (seriously, it's awfully expensive). If you have a good hunt, I would suggest using the money saved to come back and do it again next year!

Some really nice 'blown up' photos, in nice frames, make excellent "trophies"!

quote:

Originally posted by F S:
Hi! Since this community is very knowledgeable I'll ask you to help me with a question. I have an income level that would let me do one or two serious hunting trips in my life (been saving seriously for 4 years and way to go still...). Anyhow, I came to know a south African hunter (SA citizen) who loves to hunt. He and his family rent a farm for a few weeks hunting every year where they go hunting for eland, warthog and a few other species. Now he has invited me to join this hunt and since they sell the meat it would cost me not much more than the flight down there. So far - awesome possiblity!! I started to look at the rules for a non-SA resident to hunt there and got pretty confused. Tried to contact phasa but no response from them yet. So in short, would it be legal to join that hunt since there would be no registered ph? My friend would do the guiding. He is a good hunter but not a registered ph. Would it make any difference that he is renting the land and not the formal land owner? And in case this really happens and I manage to take an animal, would it be possible to export the trophy?

Thanks in advance!

I wish you all the luck possible for your attempts [I use the plural as IMHO you will need many tries to get a response :] PHASA is not there to help foreign hunters1 Their reason for existance is to serve the interests of their members i.e. the Professional Hunters and Hunting Outfitters.

Regarding your question, the phrase that "Easy questions require difficult answers" comes to mind. Please note that I have never studies for any legal qualification and therefore not qualified to give any legal advice. I will however give my own understanding of the legal background to your question here. Before you make any final decision I strongly advise that you find ourt from your friend in which Province the proposed hunting area lies, and then contact the relevant Provincial Nature Conservation authority in that particular province. [The contact details can conveniently be obtained from the PHASA website.] It is the relevant Provincial Nature Conservation offices that will have to decide on possible prosecution or not - so IMHO they are the correct persons to ask about the legality of any hunting related action in that particular province!

OK so far? A few facts: (i) In South Africa the de facto authority is always the particular Provincial Nature Conservation authority. (ii) Each province has it's own regulations, but although there are small (and some big )differences in the regulations, the Provinces attempt to act in an uniform manner. (iii) I will quote here from the Nature Conservation Ordinance published as Ordinance 12 of 1983, which still holds for all the Provinces (lLimpopo, Gauteng,
Mpumulanga) which were formerly in the Transvaal Priovince.

Your enquiry can perhaps be best (or at least to an extent?) be answered by starting with a definition of the consept "hunting -outfitter". i quote from the "old" Transvaal Ordinance No. 12 of 1983: "hunting-outfitter' means any person who presents or organizes the hunting of a wild animal or an exotic animal for reward (My emphasis on the last word.)

I do hope that you have a legal background, or a good friend who can explain better than I can how wide the interpretation of the word "reward" can be. There can be little doubt that your South African friend is acting as the person who is offering you the opportunity to hunt complies with the first part of the definition of a "hunting-outfitter"? But note that the "reward" is not stated as "money", or "financial compensation", both of which words fits into the broader concept of "reward". But the facts are that , after the hunt, you may feel that "you owe your friend some goodwill" for making it possible for you to enjoy some very low cost hunting in South Africa also fits the broad concept of "reward". You may have, in the past, or want to in the furture, help your friend to enjoy a hunt in your own country. Even just feeling under some obligation (under good cross-examination in a sweltering hot court) thay your south African friend has done you a great favor, may be conscrued as "for reward". From the same ordinance you will then fit the definition of a "client" which reads: “client” means any person not normally resident in the Republic and who pays or rewards any other person for or in connection with the hunting of a wild animal or an exotic animal;

Please again note that the words 'pays or rewards' are used. Let me assure you that it will be very difficult indeed to prove under cross examination in a court that your friend does not get somehow rewarded for offering you the opportunity to hunt with him. The good news - but just for you, nad not for your friend - is that you will in all propability never be prosecuted for being part of an illegal hunt. The ANC crooks in our government will think very very carefully before prosecuting a foreign hunter for whatever offence. Particularly they will not want to touch a USA citizen! Your friend however will, or may be (?), be prosecuted for acting as a "hunting-outfitter" without the required license. He risks, on being found guilty for any hunting regulation offence, the confiscation without compensation of all his firerms and being declared unfit to ever possess a firarm again. That willl very effectively end his hunting career in South Africa! I would surely not wish to expose one of my friends to such a severe penalty just to save me a few bucks.

Here a URL for one of the [old] Transvaal Nature Conservation Ordinances :

I wish you all the best with yourt plans to travel to south Africa for some hunting, but please kep it perfectly legal.

Thanks a lot for the answers. I really want to do this the legal way and not risk neither mine nor his skin in any legal way. For clarification purpose I live in Sweden, thus not a US citizen but regarding shipment of trophies it is probably about the same cost as to the us. However I got the impression that a few euro mounts would be a lot cheaper than shoulder mounts, not only due to size/weight but also due to a more simple veterinarian inspection at importation, but I could be wrong. The shipping cost is something that seems to be very hard to figure out beforehand.

Anyhow, back to the real question. Seems like it is close to impossible to legally hunt in SA without a registered ph as a foreigner. The idea with bringing a young/new ph to the hunt is a good idea. I'll talk to my friend and see if he got any connections.

Thanks again for the input!

FS.

Whereabouts is your friend hunting? I may know someone that could help you out if they are local.

Fundamentally my understanding is that you need a PH & outfitter (can be the same person) to hunt legally as a foreign hunter. Any trophy needs those docs in place to be exportable.

However whilst RSA has some of the worst rogues I have encountered in the hunting industry it is also home to some of the kindest and most generous people I have ever come across, and money doesn't always need to change hands under the correct circumstances, and they love to show their beautiful country to people.

I'm going on a spearfishing trip next week, so email me at kiri@athinasporting with details of where you will be and I will see if I can help with an introduction.

Regards,
Kiri

Thanks to Andrew for his detailed clarifications. Very informative.

I did a bird hunt in South Africa - that is my only experience apart from driving around a small game ranch trying to shoot a wart hog in high grass.

My understanding from talking to the PH, owner and some friends here who were originally from SA, most SA PH license holders do not hunt full time. Quite a few have a PH license but do little guided hunting. Even photo safari guides who carry rifles will probably have PH license.

If your friend has a lease and acess to such hunting, I would be very surprised that he does not have a local PH license holder to help with the legality of your hunt at little cost.

Remember that local SA hunters pay 25% or less for hunting compared to US hunters who go there. The fact that they sell their meat means this is a "biltong" hunt and you should be able find a legal way of doing it without too much trouble. I would definitely keep looking real sharp at making it happen and refuse to give up easily.

If you are going to hunt in Limpopo, you might even strike a deal with Andrew. He is very helpful and goes the extra mile. He even got me an off season bird license without any promises or expectations.

Wish you all the best.

Thanks again for all your help! At the moment I have limited information on location (my friend is on a business trip currently, will talk more with him when he gets back). Dates are not set either but I really appreciate the help Kiri offers! I'll contact you when I have more information.

As nakihunter says, my friend might have those connections already.

A follow up question, would it be necessary to have trophies go through a taxidermy company before export? Back home I always prepare my euro mounts myself (save a few $...) But I guess a taxidermy company would simplify the paperwork (or even be necessary)?

Regards

One mistake and I predict heavy fines, and/or confinement, not only for you but your friend as well, for allowing this hunt by a visitor!

...........................................................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by F S:
Thanks a lot for the answers. I really want to do this the legal way and not risk neither mine nor his skin in any legal way. For clarification purpose I live in Sweden, thus not a US citizen but regarding shipment of trophies it is probably about the same cost as to the us. However I got the impression that a few euro mounts would be a lot cheaper than shoulder mounts, not only due to size/weight but also due to a more simple veterinarian inspection at importation, but I could be wrong. The shipping cost is something that seems to be very hard to figure out beforehand.

Anyhow, back to the real question. Seems like it is close to impossible to legally hunt in SA without a registered ph as a foreigner. The idea with bringing a young/new ph to the hunt is a good idea. I'll talk to my friend and see if he got any connections.

Thanks again for the input!

Sir, there is a lot of noise here, but here it is in a nutshell, in lay mans terms. By law every provinces regulates its own Professional Hunting. but every province legislature says:

1. A Hunting Outfitter must organize and be responsible for your hunt. Handling all financial transactions, licensing and trophy care and export.
2. A Professional Hunter must accompany any foreign hunter that pays to hunt in South Africa

Here is the good news. I am going to help you to hunt with your friends. We just need to sort out a couple of things, and if you are happy with it, I will contact one of the PH schools and get a young PH that needs experience to hunt with you for free.

If you cover my cost, and if your hunt falls withing one of my jurisdictions, then I will gladly outfit your hunt. Our butchery will even buy the meat your friend wants to sell, and we will export your trophies. There will of course be a fee for this service.

It is terrible to be invited to go on a hunt with friends and not be able to do it, so you are more than welcome to email me.

Well done Charl, I don’t know you , but you are a good man and your offer and attitude speaks volumes.

Charl

I also don't know you but your offer is generous and makes me proud to be part of the SA hunting fraternity. Well done!

FS as a newcomer to AR you have reaped the benefits of the site and community. I hope we see your hunt report in the near future!

JCHB

Short answer is no !

Reasons lie in a number of basic premises:

Under South African law all hunting , utilization ,trade, ownership of game is a privilege based on a regulatory permit system . The only way you own game is when it has been legally killed with a permit !

First: As a visitor you are not a citizen nor a legal resident and the law ( 9 in all, one for each Province ) is clear that hunting privileges extend only to citizens and legal residents and they are not transferable which brings us to the second premise of exemption under the law,

The law states that the conservation authority may exempt the legal owner of land of parts / provisions of the act under specific circumstances. This exemption ( a permit granted usually with provision of suitable fencing of land) then allows for visitors to hunt under the conditions of the permit and then with the added provisions of the parts that govern PH's and Outfitters again a privilege granted under the act if certain regulatory and certification !

Wow!

I have heard of South African hospitality many times and this the second time I have seen such generosity. The first was Andrew above.

Hats off to you sir!

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:

quote:

Originally posted by F S:
Thanks a lot for the answers. I really want to do this the legal way and not risk neither mine nor his skin in any legal way. For clarification purpose I live in Sweden, thus not a US citizen but regarding shipment of trophies it is probably about the same cost as to the us. However I got the impression that a few euro mounts would be a lot cheaper than shoulder mounts, not only due to size/weight but also due to a more simple veterinarian inspection at importation, but I could be wrong. The shipping cost is something that seems to be very hard to figure out beforehand.

Anyhow, back to the real question. Seems like it is close to impossible to legally hunt in SA without a registered ph as a foreigner. The idea with bringing a young/new ph to the hunt is a good idea. I'll talk to my friend and see if he got any connections.

Thanks again for the input!

Sir, there is a lot of noise here, but here it is in a nutshell, in lay mans terms. By law every provinces regulates its own Professional Hunting. but every province legislature says:

1. A Hunting Outfitter must organize and be responsible for your hunt. Handling all financial transactions, licensing and trophy care and export.
2. A Professional Hunter must accompany any foreign hunter that pays to hunt in South Africa

Here is the good news. I am going to help you to hunt with your friends. We just need to sort out a couple of things, and if you are happy with it, I will contact one of the PH schools and get a young PH that needs experience to hunt with you for free.

If you cover my cost, and if your hunt falls withing one of my jurisdictions, then I will gladly outfit your hunt. Our butchery will even buy the meat your friend wants to sell, and we will export your trophies. There will of course be a fee for this service.

It is terrible to be invited to go on a hunt with friends and not be able to do it, so you are more than welcome to email me.

Thanks a lot for all the help! I've spoken to my friend and it turned out that one of the persons that is part of the hunting group from his side is a ph and he will take care of the formal/legal part for me. I really appreciate both the information and the other help offered in this thread, I'm grateful to being part of such a community! Next up is to make a detailed budget and see if I can swing this. I will really try since this kind of opportunities does not happen often!

Thanks again!

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:

quote:

Originally posted by F S:
Thanks a lot for the answers. I really want to do this the legal way and not risk neither mine nor his skin in any legal way. For clarification purpose I live in Sweden, thus not a US citizen but regarding shipment of trophies it is probably about the same cost as to the us. However I got the impression that a few euro mounts would be a lot cheaper than shoulder mounts, not only due to size/weight but also due to a more simple veterinarian inspection at importation, but I could be wrong. The shipping cost is something that seems to be very hard to figure out beforehand.

Anyhow, back to the real question. Seems like it is close to impossible to legally hunt in SA without a registered ph as a foreigner. The idea with bringing a young/new ph to the hunt is a good idea. I'll talk to my friend and see if he got any connections.

Thanks again for the input!

Sir, there is a lot of noise here, but here it is in a nutshell, in lay mans terms. By law every provinces regulates its own Professional Hunting. but every province legislature says:

1. A Hunting Outfitter must organize and be responsible for your hunt. Handling all financial transactions, licensing and trophy care and export.
2. A Professional Hunter must accompany any foreign hunter that pays to hunt in South Africa

Here is the good news. I am going to help you to hunt with your friends. We just need to sort out a couple of things, and if you are happy with it, I will contact one of the PH schools and get a young PH that needs experience to hunt with you for free.

If you cover my cost, and if your hunt falls withing one of my jurisdictions, then I will gladly outfit your hunt. Our butchery will even buy the meat your friend wants to sell, and we will export your trophies. There will of course be a fee for this service.

It is terrible to be invited to go on a hunt with friends and not be able to do it, so you are more than welcome to email me.

That is a very kind and generous offer.

I am sure many members appreciate this.

Thank you very much.