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The Lion Conservation Task Force (LCTF) is a grass roots colaboratve effort very much in it's infancy. It was started by Aaron, I, and others. It is not ready for complete public unveiling at this time as some of it members are new to working with hunters and we are still getting a feel for each other. But...it is a group participated in by the worlds foremost experts on the lion, hunting industry leaders, and hunters. Both Aaron and I have day jobs so we have limited time for major PR at this time as we are trying to work closely with Tanzania in it's implementation of new rules for the 2011 season. Once we get done with Tanzania's season opening...hopefully...we will get some website stuff going. Right now we operate on a Wikispaces page in which Zig MackIntosh monitors. We really had not planned on the public unveiling at this time but we decided to mention it when we were defending our position on the young lion. Our mission is simple...to preserve the lion and it's habitat by giving it value through sustainable take hunting. Aaron...feel free to add anything you feel is appropriate. You may monitor our discussion at: www.liondiscussion.wikispaces.com Their is some very good reading posted there. Sincerely, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | ||
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Very impressive. I may have missed it in all the posts going back and forth, but who among the "world's foremost experts on the lion" have agreed to lend their names and time to your task force? Thanks. Kim Merkel Double .470 NE Whitworth Express .375 H&H Griffin & Howe .275 Rigby Winchester M70 (pre-64) .30-06 & .270 "Cogito ergo venor" René Descartes on African Safari | |||
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excellent | |||
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They're helping us, we're helping them, etc. Dr. Packer, Dr. Begg, Dr. White, Paul Funston, Panthera to a smaller degree. Michel Allard/Mike Angelides, DSC, hopefully SCI, Zig McIntosh, etc, etc. Some of them participate in the Wiki, others like Dr. Packer only communicate via email/phone. Below is a picture of a lion that illustrates the need for a universal POINTS system, similar to the one implemented in the Niassa. This lion was recently aged, scientifically, at approximately 4 yrs old. Kafue Lions develop manes exceptionally well, generally speaking. This one earlier than most. I would have bet money he was 5 plus yrs old.  Below is a picture of a lion from the Kilombero Valley - 2008. Adjacent to the Selous, often times the lions here are BIG, but not well developed manes. We actually watched this LION for a full week before shooting him. He had a 26 3/4" skull, was 10' 5" nose to tail, and I feel confident after looking closely at him, his tooth wear, etc, that he was 6 plus yrs old. IMO, another illustration that mane development, or lack there of, is NOT always a key indicator of age. Thus the further need for the points style system, and NOT just a hard/fast 6 yr old or nothing rule. Human error has to be considered, in the case of 4-5 yr old lions.  Below is a picture of a fabulously maned lion, recently aged at 6 plus yrs old. (Kafue-Zambia)  Below, a picture courtesy of "Fairgame". My guess, he's 4 yrs old. Still developing, slender head, etc.  Just some info, as it pertains to the necessity of the points system, in conjunction with quota/6 yrs old. The LCTF is asking for lions aged 3 or under, be confiscated, non-exportable, the PH fined, the company fined, and an immediate reduction in quota by 1, for the following year. | |||
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Any other LCTF members who are AR members feel free to jump in and add your $0.02! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I applaud what you guys for what you are doing but the sad reality is in another 50 years there won't be hunting of anything unless something is done to curb the increase in the human population. Hell, in most places right now, outside of the national parks and the hunting blocks, there is no game, its all been poached out. Very depressing. | |||
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CR, I hear you...but...we have to try!!! Who knows what the next 50 years will bring. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Thanks for this post. I think this is what people such as myself have been waiting to see. It seems like a well-thought out plan of conservation. It is still in the forming stage but at least there is a direction. I'd say the only thing really missing are ideas for non-lethal methods supported by the LCTF to pump money into the areas affected; I didn't see any obvious mention of this on the site. If you want to take this message to the non-hunting/reasonable public, it cannot be seen a merely a way to maintain lion numbers so that you may continue to kill them. It must be a 'total' plan in order to perpetuate the species above all else. Singing to the hunting choir is one thing but it can;t really be expected to be the only place from which to draw your support. If, as the posts suggest, the LCTF wants it to be illegal to hunt younger lions (to the point there will be large fines), there will be an immediate and self-inflicted loss of revenue. How does LCTF propose to offset this? What is LCTF's take on the Living with Lions organization? who have publicly stated hunting is a viable means of management? Where do these two organizations overlap/disagree? Aaron, it looks as though you have been hard at work and it is appreciated. However, as much as you may think all the capital letters and exclamation points are getting the point across of your endeavors behind the scenes, in my opinion that have done the opposite. In fact they make you look like an arrogant know-it-all who seeks to prop up a shrinking industry for your own pleasure. No matter how many times you scream on screen that 'it's not about me!' the fact that conservation and killing are so close together in your arguments seem to point in another direction. You clearly have the money, time and are gaining the knowledge in lions to be amongst the experts that you have assembled but for crying out loud, the incendiary, abrasive tone in which you sometimes offer your information or show your passion, I think you will find, will as often divide as coalesce and in my opinion should be toned down severely. Being the impetus behind something does not always qualify someone to be the mouthpiece for it as well. If I have missed frequent, relative posts on the LCTF and have had the opportunity to view this info in the past and haven't, I apologize, but I also have a day job so can't always see all the good stuff. If I could make a recommendation, start working on a website, pronto. I'll keep the wiki-thing as a bookmark and look there for further information and progress of the LCTF. Reading posts by the others is very informative, even in the raw state. Cheers, Baxter | |||
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Baxter I'm pretty sure we already had the come to Jesus fest on the other thread. Aaron's tone as well as everyone else's tone is civil and respectful on this thread. Let's leave this thread to LCTF and lion conservation related issues rather than muddying it up with this. Thanks. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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How do you off-set the loss of reveune from shooting young lions? Don't shoot young lions, and you won't be fined! Not shooting a 3 yr. old lion is simple, do it and pay the consequences. Its the only way to stop it. The LCTF is not geared towards, hunters/hunting community. We first compile the data, get the support of the scientific community, and then take it to the general public. All of which, we are working on now. What you see on Wiki, is a fair bit of what's been done so far. Alot more has been done via private email/phone, etc. Being emphatic about one's point, is NOT being arrogant. Is it possible that's simply your interpretation, but far from the case? I believe it was Larry Shores who said that the "loss" in written word nowadays is greater than ever. I believe he quoted a researcher who said that 90% of emails/written words are mis-interpreted by the reader. If you've read the LCTF Wiki, do you see anywhere in there that I appeared to be rude/arrogant/mean/in-sensitive, to anyone? Could it be perhaps some have mis-interpreted my words too, or am I just a mean/arrogant person who doesn't like wrldhunter/Muchinga? I made the mistake of being over-emphatic about my point, I also made the mistake to think that the African lion/African Wildlife was more important to some than another AR poster's feelings. To me, no sigle person, myself included, is more important than the wildlife in Africa as a whole. Abie DuPlooy knew better, and didn't seem to care much, at all. Next time when I point that out, I'll try to sugar-coat it, for the more sensitive members of AR.  Peer Pressure is a powerful thing. My intention was to bring awareness to the fact that this sort of thing is still happening, and needs to be stopped! Your opinion is I went about it the wrong way, others think not so much. I won't please everyone, and won't try, but I will try to do everything I can for the lion and the rest of Africa's precious resource. I'll do my best to make the hunting community proud. I promise I will!!! | |||
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One of the "worlds foremost experts on the lion" from Alaska who has never hunted them but who has read a lot about them and talked a lot about them and probably stayed at a holiday inn last night has just weighed in so now ya know. | |||
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Along with your wit I sincerely hope LCTF can count on your assistance...... Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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who needs me when they have you  | |||
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Aaron, I don't need sugar coating and I'm not sensitive, but I perceive a different tone between your posts on AR and the ones I read on the wiki. I think others will see the same thing. My question about offsetting loss of revenue has nothing to do with the fine imposed for killing young lions. If the revenue from hunting lions helps the overall hunting scheme in Africa, where will losses be made up if some of the suggestions are taken? Here's an example: Last year, Country X allowed 50 lions to be taken. 46 were taken and of those only 30 were more that 6 years old. If age limits were imposed (as suggested by the LCTF) and if 6 years will be the new minimum, then based on those averages, your theoretical maximum taken will be around 30. Given the reality, and the fact that you are now hunting a much smaller population of lions, the actual take will probably be 20 6-year and older lions. That lowers the overall revenue into the safari operators and the country immensely. That is the revenue that previously has been used for anti-poaching etc etc. This is the offset of revenue I am talking about, again, in the overall picture. When anyone talks about lowering the number of potential trophy fees via changing what is and what is not a legal animal to take, this will likely have a major impact on revenue. Imagine if elephant were restricted to 80 pounds and up only? Will trophy fees rise? Day rates? Length of safaris? This has been and will continue to be an issue of economics and its the economics problem that has to be solved along with the nuts at the HSUS, PETA etc etc. I'm just a guy who likes to debate a question until it has been played to its end and hopefully learn something in the process. The wiki is an interesting read. Brett, Is that enough LCTF for you? Thanks... _Baxter | |||
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How is the actual age of these cats being determined? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Sir, please let's just focus on the lion. Look on the wiki to see who is involved. Thanks in advance! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I'm pretty sure Dr. White is using tooth samples from all lions harvested in Zambia...or as many lions as she can get to age them. I'd imagine that's the case here. Baxter....looked good to me! Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Baxter - My difference in tone between my "young lion" thread, and the Wiki, was/is quite intentional. Everyone on Wiki is working for the lion, the PH in question, obviously not. The only potential loss of revenue will be from lion trophy fees, not the lion hunts themselves. Of which, the majority goes to the WD, which is generally wasted, stolen, etc, etc. And if operators are managing the lions correctly, and quotas are in accordance with accepted limits per block, very little should change at all. So, little will be effected from the operators end. Could trophy fees be higher, that's up to the WD. They change like the wind! Day rates/length of safaris, depends on quota structure. We are not suggesting 6 be the minimum, we are trying to get 4-5 to be the acceptable minimum. But not widely desired. | |||
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Glad someone finally said it about the big mouthed african expert blowhard. I thought I was the only one who felt this way about the damn internet expert know it alls who know nothing. | |||
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Teeth by x-rays and wear along with other phenotypic characteristics which is out of the scope of this thread. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Proteus - Acutally, Brett is quite knowledgable! I've spent numerous hrs talking to him, and frankly, he knows more than 90% of hunters/conservationists. Secondly, his input here, and throughout my dealings with him have always been a concern for the lion, and a desire to help, learn and participate. But since we "internet know-it-alls", really know nothing! I would hope to see you at the workshops in Tanzania, where we can all be enlightened to the facts that we may be missing? Please plan to be in TZ, roughly the 2nd week in June. Once dates are finalized, we will post em here. | |||
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Are the teeth being cross sectioned and the growth brings checked? That is the only accurate method for aging white tails. Does that method not work for lions? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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That method was looked at but presently is not validated with lions. They don't add rings consistently. Pulp cavity width measured on a radiograph is one objective data used. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Thanks dad... ;-) | |||
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Thanks for your response, I did not know if the cross sectioning method would work with lions/carnivores the way it does for deer. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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OK, down another rabbit warren... How is lion quota set (it seems it can be arbitrary from what i have seen)? If based in any way on available, legal lions, wouldn't that necessarily change/lower the number of hunts an operator may book that include lion? If that were true then the overall numbers of safaris booked which include lion may be fewer, correct? Another way to look at it, if quota were 50, could more than 50 lions hunts be booked? With the expectation of non-successful hunts? Has any study been made showing lion populations by age range? that would tell us what the potential for take is. The same can be applied to the elephant example, if an area only had x amount of 80+ elephant, it would change the total safari participation of an area I would think because quite often elephant (or lion I would imagine) is not the only focus of a hunt. | |||
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Brett Barringer is one of your experts?  Are you shitting us? Some wannabee clown from Alaska who's never seen a wild lion but has read about them and thinks he's an authority? Are you serious? So much for credibility. Brett Adam Barringer, LCTF Lion Expert | |||
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This will seem like I am trying to rain on a parade again, I am not, but would just like a little information here to put things in perspective. Who, derives the most income from a lion hunt? The Safari Company/Outfitter/PH, the goverment of the country where the hunt was held, the local people in the area where the hunt takes place? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Seems like aging a Lion by obtaining a tooth and having it checked out would be a little tough to do?? Who is going to get the tooth from the Lion? Tracker, PH? How long do you have to wait to have the tooth examined? Most Safaris are 21 days at best so will the results be back in camp so the hunter will know if it's OK to shoot it before he has to go home?  Larry Sellers SCI Life Member | |||
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Yes, that would be a problem with a LIVE Lion. but that is not what I am asking. Have the lions that have been killed been aged by the growth rings in their teeth? I know that is the only way to accurately age a dead white tail, Dr. Easter answered my question in his response that the method I was asking about has not been validated for lions. Nothing was said about pulling a tooth from a live lion and waiting for the dental report before pulling the trigger. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Maybe they could do 'green' lion hunts and get the data that way? | |||
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Have spent the last hour reading the lion wiki and it is very enlightening. I would highly encourage everyone to have a look. I find the back and forth between the Drs. most interesting as it really gets to the nuts and bolts of how things might/should be done, what is workable and what is not. Good stuff. The comments by John Jackson and Andrew Baldry echo my thoughts about the loss of booking/revenue. This is a very tenuous situation from just about every angle you can imagine. | |||
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 Touche!Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Dear Guy's Good to see you are trying to do some thing. In order to gage the general hunting public on there opinion. As if most people believe some thing is good they will support it. Why do you not post some questions with a tick box yes or know. 1. Have you hunted a lion before? 2. Have you actually taken a lion on safari? 2.1 This should place more weight on your result answers. 3. Would you rather shot any lion or a large one over the 6 year mark? 4. How much would you expect to pay for a lion hunt? 5. What would you expect the success rate of a lion hunt to be? 6. Would you stop hunting lions if that meant they would be saved for future generations to see them? 7. Do you think for lion we should go to a south african style and bread lions for hunting. Let them go say 12 months before the hunt. ___________________________________ Some other general interest questions: 1. In what country would you start your trial? 2. How would you teach a PH the difference between a 5 to 6 year old lion? 3. I assume there would be fewer lion hunts for the first 4-5 years. Until they all grow up? 4. With more grown lion's walking around would they not fight more and cause more injury and death to them and the local people? _________________________________________ I fell the biggest issue is loss of land and poaching. Change of hunting practice will not change that. If the top 10 African hunters pooled there money for 5 years and purchased land they could protect that area and there next generations could hunt for free. More wild life would be present. Including lions and every other animal that is slowly being killed of. Provided it was not taken from them? Any way just some thing to consider. Remember if you do not like some thing then do not reply. Thanks Mark | |||
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Mark, Will comment on your last paragraph. One of the main problems in Zambia is that the the management of our vast concessions is problematic. Our wildlife department is broke and even they have suggested that the solution maybe with the private sector, and are currently promoting joint ventures with the rural communities. This is very encouraging however in the same breath they suggested we import Lions and breed them for hunting which was quite alarming. Thing is this new model is currently in existence here although still in it's infancy. There is small handful of game ranchers (non fenced and private) all of who had their Lion quotas removed recently? In return my argument was that our game ranch in Luangwa contributes more to the community than the adjacent 1.5 million acre GMA does. That the GMA has only taken out one Lion in the last 5 years. That the Lion population is healthy and intensely protected on our side of the river by a syndicate of game ranchers. And to a point where conflicts with the community are common place etc My argument fell on deaf ears and hardly an incentive for others being asked to invest in game ranching? However things are changing here and I believe it will be for the better. My desire is to see the subdivision of these concessions and then the uniting of the private sector to create large protected land masses similar to that of the Timbavati who entertain both exclusive consumptive and non consumptive tourism. Andrew ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Baxter - All good questions. 1. Lion quotas are set, quite arbitrarily! To know the number of "legal" lions one might have in a given block, would be next to impossible. I believe in the area km2 theory better, at least for starters. But its only necessary to have a starting point. Then, operators are either hitting the mark by consistently shooting lions of 6 plus, or they're not. Then adjustments can be made. To your second question, of course more than 50 lion hunts can be sold! But I highly disagree with that method of selling hunts. To me its extremely unethical to sell a hunt, that you know MUST be unsuccessful. Now if a hunter comes on the first hunt of the year, and is unsuccessful in getting a lion, and the operator then wants to sell another hunt, fine! But do not sell, what you intentionally plan NOT to provide. Baxter, the biggest problem is wild lions on a wide scale, are nearly impossible to "study". At least without tons of money, time, researchers, etc. I truly believe, until we can get more "studies" done. The quota/area size/points system, will need to be the starting point. | |||
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Dark Continent - Did anyone, anywhere, say Brett was a lion expert for the LCTF, including Brett? NO!! We have all stated Brett is knowledgable, helpful, and wanting to learn/participate for the betterment of the lion. Besides being another "anonymous" internet bully, what's been your input to help the lion?? | |||
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Of course NO teeth will be X-rayed or pulled from a live lion. Aging has been talked abot many times before on this sight search Aaron Neilson and Bwanamich. The science behind aging is not the scope of this thread. Read the stuff listed to the left on the wiki. CHC, FYI...a large study looking at growth rings or dentin layers in teeth of lions was undertaken and it did not pan out...at least with the current hypothesis. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Mark - Some good questions/thoughts, I'll address the best I can, before leaving for the gym this morning. 1. Have you hunted lion before? YES, many times. 2. Yes, 11 lions on 14 lion safaris. One 2 separate unsuccessful hunts I could have shot numerous males, but none were old/mature enough, so we passed them. One unsuccessful hunt, I never had a chance to shoot any male lion. 3. Obviously, a large one of 6 plus yrs old. 4. Lion hunts range greatly, but ideally I would like to see them from $60k - $80K. 5. "Expectations" of success on any hunt, is the wrong approach in my opinion. Hope for success, but stay within the confines of good management practices to achieve that success. 6. A total impossibility, and would have the total opposite effect, period! Partly why I am working so hard to keep it. Without lion hunting, the lion is doomed. 7. NO!! Its in SA, fine, I'm ok with that, but keep it there. SOME OTHER GENERAL INTEREST QUESTIONS: 1. We are trying to start all of this in TZ. As TZ definitely has the largest lion population, and largest lion hunting industry, seems a logical place to start. 2. There is NO WAY to teach a PH the absolute difference between a 5-6 yr old lion! Thus the need for the Niassa Style Points System, it allows for the inconsistency in lions! My pictures above are a small example. 3. Not true at all. Quotas are set, hunt your lions, but only harvest the mature ones. Do that and you are fine! 4. Many operators have been practicing the strict lion management policy for years now. Ask "Bwanamich" that question. My answer would be not, its not a problem. YOU ARE CORRECT - the biggest problem is loss of habitat/human encroachment. But without lion hunting, to generate the revenue needed to support the anti-poaching/community developments, etc, would be nearly impossible. To have lions in most of these wild/hunting blocks, we must have the hunting. If the hunters leave, who will protect the wildlife? NO ONE!!! TOP 10 AFRICAN HUNTERS POOLED THEIR MONEY - Perhaps to some degree that would work. Point taken, but we really have to deal with what we can do/will do, not just what we would like to do. In other words, we need to deal with reality. Mark - Thanks man, alot of good questions from someone who is on the thread to learn/participate and be pro-active. | |||
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Aaron - I suggest you might want to appeal to the Weatherby Foundation Board for assistance. Even if the board itself doesnt take you up - I bet one or more of their board members will help out in some way ($$??) A day spent in the bush is a day added to your life Hunt Australia - Website Hunt Australia - Facebook Hunt Australia - TV | |||
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