Please give me your opinion on the 470 NE as a double rifle caliber.

Alternative would be a .500/.416

What about Merkel or Krieghoff as guns?

[ 12-08-2003, 14:51: Message edited by: cchunter ]

I don't have any experience with the doubles as of yet but all I can say is that the 470 NE must be the all time classic double of Africa ! Nevermind the use of it in India as well.

It must have done something right to be so famous

I am having a great time with my new Merkel in .470 I just had it in TZ. a month ago. I was very pleased with the preformance,the recoil of the 470 took a little getting used to,but its really not that bad. I shopped exstensively when I bought my Merkel and the other considerstion was the Kreigoff:The Merkel seems to follow the traditional design of a double and the Kreigoff is a bit more inovative,in the w way the saftey actually cocks the hammer. I like the Merkel for speed of reloading and firing that 3rd or 4th shot.But with a 470 in the right place you don't need a 2nd shot let alone a 3rd or 4th.Good luck on your selection, and happy new gun!!

Christer

470 is classic, soo is 500.

You will get lost of penetration with less recoil with a 500/.416

Krieghoff is a bit boxy compared to the Merkel. Both are very krautish in their design and looks Chapuis could be an option worth considering.

/JOHAN

The 470NE will settle the hash in anything you want to shoot with it! It has the best re-sale of anything, where chambering is concerened. However, one must pay a premium, if buying a used rifle, if it happens to be chambered for 470NE. The components for loading this cartridge are redily available, and it is a good thing, because factory ammo, for any of the NE doubles, is dear to the bank account! I find most, who shoot doubles, hand load for them anyway, not only to save money, but to get better regulateing loads for their rifle. The good thing about the factory ammo being available in Africa, is if your luggage gets lost, but bring a BRINKS money truck with you when you buy!

As someone above said, the 500/416K is a fine cartridge, and is a good choice, but as stated, ammo may not be available if there turns out to be a need to buy ammo in Africa!

There are proponants of each of the rifles you mention, and they all have their value points! The Merkel is more traditional, in design, and is built on a A&D action, with extractors, and no recoil pad! Some find this to be a drawback, I do not! The recoil pad is something I like to install myself, and the rifle with Auto, selective ejectors is something I disable, anyway, on a DGR double!

The Krieghoff is a fine name, and has, over the years, made some of the best shotguns in the world! I see no reason to think the double rifles they make are not of the same quality. The big "KICKER" here is the so-called "SAFETY"! Most treditional double rifle shooters find this troubleing, but I think this is because folks who use doubles are very resistant to change of any kind, where doubles are concerened. The fact is this system "IS" traditional, in the way it works. By that, I mean the rifle cocks itself when opened exactly the same as any hammerless double rifle. When the rifle is made safe, it actually de-cocks the rifle, rather than block a cocked action. This is the way the rifle is carried, and when the time comes to start a donnibrook, the "SAFETY" is shoved forward, just like any other double, though it takes a little more pressure to do, because you are cocking the rifle. It is easy to get used to this extra pressure, with only a little use. When the rifle is borken for a re-load durring a fight, it re-cocks it'self the same as any double. This rifle is available in 470NE as well, I think.

Don't forget the Chapuis, it is a fine rifle, as well, and is also available in 470NE if that is the round you want! All three are in the same price range, more or less, here in the USA,but may be a bit cheaper in Europe! If however the 500/416K is what you want, in an off the shelf double, then you are limited to the Krieghoff, I'm afraid! Many who make rifle to order, offer the 500/416K, Searcy comes to mind,in that price range as well, and they are made to fit you, but you have to wait for it to be built! Actually, not a bad idea,if you have the time to wait, and would be the way I'd most likely go!

Between those off the shelf rifles mentioned, I would go with the one that fit me best, and ballanced/pointed best! The Merkels fit me vry well, and they are well made. I have one in a smaller chambering that I dearly love!
Either way you go, any of those doubles are better than a bolt rifle for going into the jesse with old M'bogo! Besides all that, double rifles are, simply, "AFRICA"!

[ 12-08-2003, 22:24: Message edited by: MacD37 ]

cchunter,

470 NE ammo as loaded by Federal is anywhere from $175.00 to $200.00 per box of twenty.

Handloading looks better and better...

Regards,
Dave

I have nothing but good things to say for the 470 NE. That is all that I have ever used as far as backup when hunting with clients. It will stop any animal and is easy to maintain and get ammo for. I am sure the 500 is good as well, but have never used one of them. The 470 is all that you need and is a fantastic gun.

To me the double rifle is simply the symbol of traditional African hunting.....yes, it gives one two "aimed" shots without lowering the gun from the shoulder but several boltaction rifles are more powerful and hold more ammo and are more accurate.

I've fought Rheumatoid Arthritis for thirty years and cannot use a double with two triggers. My side X side shotguns (SKB) have single triggers because...it's just a requirement. Somehow I suspect showing up with a double rifle sporting a single trigger would be somewhat counterproductive to the tradition and besides evade the "dangerous game" concept of separate and independent triggers.

So if you see me showing up with this old klunker .375 H&H pre-64 M-70, please don't laugh.....ok? Just do me a favor....let me shoot your double.....just once.

I have always had the 450-400s and a 470 or two...I liked the idea of a 500/416 and would stand to any animal on earth with it without hesitation or the 450s for that matter..

But when I ordered my latest double from Butch, it is a .470 simply because ammo is available, it has all the power, it is proven, and the recoil is about the same as the 500-416 anyway so thats what I ordered in the new PH model....

I have shot a lot of Searcy double Rifles and its the only production double gun on todays market that I would have..I tried them all and none of them satisfied me for various reasons....I did like the Merkle in the 9.3x64 caliber, it was light and handy, but I know some folks who had Merkles shoot off the face pretty darn quick..I also like the old English guns and all my past guns were English guns with the exception of one Stickley gun that I stocked and Stickley did the metal work, it was a good gun and has held up well for the new owner who bought it some years back...but I wouldn't buy one from him today..

I have a 470 Merkel that has 200 plus rounds through it and it is not off face.

I have used the 470 in Africa on two trips and it works quite well. But I am not an expert on various big bore calibers. Recoil is not bad and the rifle is very accurate.

The Merkel feels better to me than a Searcy or a Kreighoff so that why I bought it.

BigB

cchunter
I agree with all the above posts. In a "new made double" the 470 makes the most sense.
I have 3 doubles, a 450 No2 and a 450/400 3 1/4", both British, and a Chapuis 9,3x74R. The Chapuis has a scope in QD mounts.
I acquired all of them in a fairly short time span. I have used them almost exclusively for all of my hunting the past 5 years.
I feel these 3 rifles are the ideal combination of double rifles for all types of hunting a double is suitable for. All three calibres have their specific advantages..... However knowing what I know now, my 9 1/4 lb 450/400 3 1/4" with the addition of a scope in a QD mount would be the best all-round hunting rifle for any and all game taken at under 200 yards.
This double has enough power for any hunter of African game, and with my 300gr. loads is suitable for all smaller big game.
In a new double a 500/416 [scoped] would perform the same function.
Still the 470 has several advantages as listed in the above posts. If I was buying a "new made" double today KNOWING WHAT I KNOW NOW,[even if it was a 470, and it might well be] I would DEFINATELY have QD scope mounts fitted and also get a set of shotgun bbls fitted.
The 470 can be loaded with @350gr. bullets for lighter game and would serve just as well ballistically as my 450/400 at somewhat greater weight.
Before anybody buys any of the "new made" doubles they should take a look at the Chapuis, the Heym, the Merkel, the Krieghoff, and the Searcy. Get the one you like and that fits you the best.
The main thing is GET YOURSELF A DOUBLE RIFLE, you will not regret it.

PS After you get your big double you will have to have a 9,3x74R.

History really has already documented the ability of the 470 NE. As has already been stated, another very IMPORTANT fact is the wonderful ammo available for it.

I'm not a double expert by any degree, I have fired the Kreighoff and have a Merkel SXS double 12 shotgun and they are both very good quality. When it came to buying a Double I purchased a new California Rigby and believe it was built on a Merkel frame. It sold yesterday. My Searcy 470 is about as accurate as any double and many bolt guns @ 50 yards 4 shots in about a silver dollar!

Ray is correct they are good and about as tough as anything you can buy, save your last name being Gates, Buffet or Walton. Wait and save the extra 2 to 3 K it may cost you, as you will NOT be sorry you did.

Good Hunting and Good Luck, "Z"

Zed,

I am curious why you sold your rigby. Were you happy with it?

Christer:
You shoot a 460 Wby like it's a 22.
Why not get something doesn't look like a 22, when you hold it, like a 570 or 600 nitro express?

You are one of the few people I know I would recommend that too.

Load either with solids, and no worries.

gs