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I copied the buffalo pictures below from a recent hunt report. The hunter seemed to have an enjoyable hunt, and is satisfied by his trophies. I started a new thread as I didn't want to rain on his parade, but hope to further my own education about field judging buffalo. The width and overall shape of these horns is quite pleasing (particularly the second buff). The bosses seem to indicate these buffalo are quite young, however. How old are each of these buffalo? In most areas of Zim, would these be shootable buffalo? How much of these bosses would still be soft, and boil away during cleaning?   Bill | ||
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 I hunt, not to kill, but in order not to have played golf.... DRSS | |||
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they are photos of the same buff. That or they are identical twins. Dan Donarski Hunter's Horn Adventures Sault Ste. Marie, MI 49783 906-632-1947 www.huntershornadventures.com | |||
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Just for comparison, here is a hard boss.  Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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 ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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John's reply highlights the problem with the original post at the top of this thread. Too much information was omitted. The buffalo had a foot that was damaged by a snare, he was missing his tail, and he had a fresh wound above the base of his tail. These last two items show that he, most likely, was not getting around too well. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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I did not think the question was about the condition of the buff before he was shot or even whether he should have been shot or not. I personally was looking to this post for some info on aging buff. Is what John said correct about the tips dropping below the boss'? If so, I have been mistaken in my aging of many buff by just looking at the condition of their bosses. I thought the location of the tips had something to do with shape due to genetics (other than wear). | |||
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Actually, I think it is bad form to post pictures from someone's hunt report and solicit opinions about whether the animal is immature. We have had numerous threads about aging buffalo, hard vs soft boss, etc. There are plenty of pictures out there if someone feels the need to have the discussion again. Of course, that is just my opinion. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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The reality is that a knowledgeable PH would not have had his client shoot this bull as a trophy. This bull is much too young. | |||
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If that someone cared what we thought he probably would not have posted the pictures in the first place. If the buffalo was a mature bull there would be no discussion about it IMHO that is. | |||
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On a two buff, discounted hunt, and having never taken a buff before, when the PH put the sticks up, I would have shot. I would have tried to improve the age, etc. on my second buff, but I'm sure I would have enjoyed the hunt anyway. Some folks just don't have the time or money to hunt where the bosses are guaranteed to big and hard. BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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Here are a few of the threads where this had been discussed before. Some of the pictures are gone. Judging Cape Buffalo? Cape Buffalo - hard boss, soft boss? AR BUFFALO I imagine a thorough search would disclose more of them. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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I just read the hunt report, the pictures above are of the same buffalo, the hunter's first, shot at the PH's direction. The second is an old dugga boy. | |||
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still no answer on the dropping of the tips, any knowledgeable PH's with a real answer on this one? | |||
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505, generally, it is true that older bulls have more "drop", but not always. Here is 2 photos of 2 bulls in simmilar poses, shot maybe 20km apart, and about a month apart, both completely hard, but the bull below has much less drop and thus more spread.   Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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Have to agree with Charles. Poor taste to take somebodys pic from a hunt report and use it to reference whether it's old enough, mature enough, wide enough, solid boss enough. Geez!! As stated, there are lots of places to get pics of buff in all stages of age and proportions. Common sense and a little sensitivity would/should prevail from most people? Larry Sellers SCI Life Member
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I am the hunter who killed the buffalo in this post. I haven’t had time to reply as when it was started I was headed out the hotel in Louisville. While I am eternally grateful that Bill (llamapacker) didn’t rain on my parade, I still feel I am getting pissed on. If this was an innocent question by a poster wanting to know more about judging buffalo and what makes an “acceptable” trophy, then I would let it pass. However, I believe that Mr. llamapacker has a slight agenda. As it stands, this is in poor taste. Please correct me if I am wrong but didn’t Bill(llamapacker) hunt with Nixon Dzingai of SSG Safaris for elephant? I believe I am also correct that he shot the wrong elephant and didn’t pay for it? Would llamapacker have posted this thread if I had hunted with another PH/Safari Operator other than Nixon Dzingai? More on that here. From llamapacker: Let me set the scene. You are hunting trophy bull elephant, and have been on the hot trail of three elephant for several hours in very thick bush. A leg here, there's an ear, but never a whole ele to study, let alone compare all three bulls. The elephant are feeding and moving, and it is work to stay with them and get positioned for the shot. They could become alerted to your presence at any time, and could easily head for parts unknown. Occasional glimpses of the tusks indicates one is a very good bull. Let's say you are hunting in Zim, and it appears the big bull may go 50+ pounds. Not huge by Botswana standards, but pretty big for the area in Zim. Suddenly you are within 20 yards of a bull presenting a classic side brain shot, but you can't see the tusks as the front of his head is obscured by the bush. The PH says "I saw the tusks, its him, Shoot him NOW!" You take the shot, drop the ele cleanly, and walk up to find a bull with 15-20 pound tusks. Clearly not the right elephant. You both do see the big ele as he crashes off with the third elephant after the shot. What can you expect from the PH in this situation? He is clearly sorry, and knows he got it wrong. On the other hand, you pulled the trigger. It's your bull, right? The government game scout is right there, has seen everything. There isn't any hiding a dead elephant. What would you expect from your PH? Bill I am very proud of both of my buffalo. Perhaps my buffalo was not up to the standards of the members of accuratereloading, but he was my first buffalo and I am happy. I do not hunt to curry favor with others nor to advance my social status. I hunt for the enjoyment and pleasure it brings to me. For the record, I had a very short window to shoot and despite his wounds, he was a quite ambulatory buffalo. Next time I hunt I will bring a computer with internet capability and post pics of buffalo right before I shoot so as to get a consensus here on what is acceptable to shoot. You are welcome to read my hunting report here. For those with internet explorer, I apologize as the pics are not coming through for some reason. I believe this is why llamapacker posted pics of the same buffalo as he must have got them off of JudgeG’s reply. For those that didn’t see it, here is a pic of my second buffalo. He has a big gap between his boss which is probably unacceptable.   I hunt, not to kill, but in order not to have played golf.... DRSS | |||
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Very well stated!!! I think some people forget that hunting should not be about just the trophy, but the whole experience. | |||
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Not sure about the elephant deal, but I completely agree this thread is in poor taste. Frankly, if you think the guy's buffalo is not mature enough (which I'm not even neccesarily disagreeing with) and it is that bothersome to you, then say so on his thread. This whole "case study" on buffalo age just seems passive aggressive to me and kind of low brow. | |||
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As you should be. The thread was started in poor taste. Brooks | |||
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I am sorry for my post. I wrongly assumed that the photos were a bit more anonymous. I would mount that buff and put it in the middle of my trophy room. I wish I had one. | |||
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I always respect a guy that will step up and apologize, good enough for me. | |||
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While to some a trophy is judged in inches, pounds or points, to me personally a Trophy lies in the quality/experience of the hunt, the shot or shots taken. While inches, points and pounds are good, some of my best, most thrilling, hardest hunts, were for "females", for meat, or bait. To me they were trophies in every since of the word. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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a fucking men. this thread is a monument to bad taste. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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total bullshit! a trophy is any animal that is worked hard for and is acceptable to the hunter. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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It seems to me, Bill, or whoever he is, lamapacker always has hidden agendas?? Just his insecurity coming out I guess? RAC, I think your buff/buffs are just fine and agree with those that put the hunting experience ahead of personal egos and other peoples expectations. Congrats to you and sorry the "packer" is such an a$$ as usual. Larry Sellers SCI Life Member
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RAC, You certainly have my apologies. Congratulations on your first buffalo!!! Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Come on Jdollar, Why is there a need to even start a hunt for an obviously young animal rather than wait for the opportunity to spot and hunt a mature or aged animal of the same species? And I am not referring to the example on this thread, just in general terms. "...Them, they were Giants!" J.A. Hunter describing the early explorers and settlers of East Africa hunting is not about the killing but about the chase of the hunt.... Ortega Y Gasset | |||
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Roger Good job on setting the record straight. Some of the guys that are judging your trophies,are the same ones not posting their own for us to judge.As long as you are happy with the results,that is all that matters. I will have mine posted by this weekend,then some can start judging mine. | |||
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Yeah. Go find your own buffalo pic. ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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You can't be a buffalo hunter until you have killed a buffalo. My first and only buff was a soft boss bull also, but he came during very memorable hunt. The bull in the photo is also a young bull and would not be considered a "proper" trophy by many. However, beauty and trophy is in the eye of the beholder or hunter. Also, from photos of past hunts I hve seen-Nixon seems to have his hunters shoot more "lesser" animals than most PHs. Perry | |||
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I will apologize to RAC since he was offended. As the pictures were posted by two different people already, I didn't think a third posting would cause any harm. I will also state once again, that the elephant hunting post that RAC cut and pasted from was purely hypothetical, and did not reference any actual hunt on my part. That was clear in the original, full post. Yes, I have also noticed that pictures from Nixon's hunts usually show very immature, soft-bossed buffalo. And his hunter's are generally very happy with those animals and proud of them. Good for them. While I have shot a few buffalo, I do have an interest in continuing to learn about judging buffalo on the hoof. Close ups of the horns in trophy photos seem one of the better methods available to those in the US. Here is a photo of a buffalo I took. While I enjoyed aspects of the hunt, I was a bit disappointed in the horns, specifically the hardness of the boss, and this is not a buffalo I would ever consider mounting. Critique this buffalo all you want, it won't hurt my feelings.  I am glad RAC enjoyed his hunt. Bill | |||
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Check out Kevin Robertson's BUFFALO: SHOT PLACEMENT AND TROPHY EVALUATION. It's a small pocket sized soft cover book well worth studying. Cost is less than $20. "Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult." | |||
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Bill, the only fault I can see on your buffalo is a eartag hole in its left ear. He ceratinly does not seem soft Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
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 Dan Donarski Hunter's Horn Adventures Sault Ste. Marie, MI 49783 906-632-1947 www.huntershornadventures.com | |||
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This is a good post. If more hunters understood trophy judgement they would not shoot immature animals. The responsibilty lies with the PH for having his client shoot a young animal and then tell the client it is a trophy. Many of these sportsman do not know they have shot a non-trophy until someone else tells them. Culling is one thing and a trophy is much different. This bull's boss was not going to grow together. He is hard with a nice curl. From the picture angle he looks like 34-36". | |||
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RAC, As your first buff, I think it was a very fine trophy. I agree with another poster that that bull looks like his boss may not ever grow together and he had lots of indicia of an older buff, including tattered ears and gray in the face. You should be proud of him and your hunt. Take care | |||
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 But on a more analytical note, I cannot see much difference in the soft area between "packers" horns and "RAC"'s horns. Both bulls seem to have a couple of inches of soft hairless tissue at the front base of the boss. However, there does seem to be a significant amount of difference in "drop" between the two bulls (assuming photo angle hasn't exaggerated this) which would point more towards "drop" being a product of shape and genetics not age. From the pics I would say this question could be answered fairly accurately by "packer" with a few e-mails to his PH. His bull seems to have pretty good drop in the horns which many of you say indicates higher age. As the bull apparently had a tag in his ear before the pic, possibly your PH could identify his actual age? Please let us know. RAC, I would not defend one of my kills to anyone, especially those that maintained the "tastelessness" of this post by continuing down the road of attaching size of the trophy to quality of the hunter or experience. To those that are guilty of that, in the future when a "replyer" re-directs a post like this down the road of education, let it go. To those who really want to post questions and pics with the hope of gaining knowledge, find a miscellaneous pic off of the site or web, there are plenty of them. All of this is IMHO, of course. | |||
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Welcome to the club! I too have been pissed on about my first buff. The truth is, you don't always get the chance to sit and evaluate a buff or any game animal before you shoot. When the PH puts you on the sticks and says "Take him", unless you have a hell of a lot of experience, you would be advised to take your PH's advice and shoot. You are paying a Professional Hunter to know the game quality in the area and help you take the best possible trophies. Have the discussion with your PH before hunting on what you want and what are reasonable expectaions for the area, then work as a team. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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i seriously doubt the hunt was started for a young or immature animal and i don't have the time or money to spend 2-3 weeks hunting for a mature or aged buffalo( although i wish i did). besides, i hunt for the experience provided, not for inches,pounds or years. a good hunt is a good hunt, regardless of the age of the animal, within reason. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
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