During the flare up over the 45-70 threads here and on other boards i have been supprised by the passion that the subject arouses. Half the people involved seem to believe that the 45-70 could stop an Abrams tank and the other half claim it couldn't stop a mildly angry chipmonk. Now I don't - I really don't - want to open the subject of how effective the 45-70 is against dangerous game. But I do want to ask why that subject gets everyone's panty's in a knot. Questions have been raised about bow and arrow, handgun and muzzleloaders for dangerous game and a rational discourse ensued, or no one reacted to the idea at all. Personally, the next time I hunt dangerous game I'll use something more potent than a 45-70, but push come to shove, I'd rather have that than a bow, handgun or muzzleloader in my hands when hunting something that bites back. So why the passion? Is it something about the caliber? Or is it something about the people?

The short answer, Terry, is yes. It is something about people.

If I ever get to hunt African Dangerous Game it will be with a bow and arrow. But I will admit, when everything goes wrong I would rather have a rifle in my hands than anything else.

Back to your post, I imagine why people get so upset is that we are trained our whole lives to defend our personal choices. In that defense, we forget to see other sides of the issue.


GTR

Terry, I don't know that anyone thinks that a .45-70 can stop an Abrams. Nor do many, even most pro .45ers think it is the BEST rifle. But they also don't really think it's so darn terrible as some folks, not all, seem to believe it must be.

The world ain't black and white, but the .45-70 issue sure seems to be.

Brent - a .45-100 user

A Marlin 45-70 is the only rifle for under $500 that anyone can even make an argument in favor of being a dangerous game rifle. So I think there may be some class warfare going on here, with the have-nots trying to pull themselves up by their bootstraps.

It's the influx of all those guys from the other forum that shut down. That and too much reading about Brian Pierce stories and about that other dude. As much as I love my 45-70's, I know the limitations of the rifle and cartridge and they don't.

500grains, you hit the nail right on the head.

I think it is the people who come here trying to convince the AR regulars that the 45-70 is a good choice.

If Larry Levergun came here and said in effect, "I want to hunt African dangerous game and am thinking of using my 45-70, what do you think?" And after a chorus of "Hell no!" answered back, Larry said, "Oh, guess I'll get a 375 H&H instead." He would be accepted and all would be right with the world.

But noooooooo! Larry wants to argue that his Marlin is the best thing since gunpowder, it will outperform any other rifle known and by using his cowboy gun he is proving he is something special. No, he hasn't ever shot anything bigger than a junk washing machine, but some bullet peddler and a third rate gun scribbler says it can be done so he wants everyone to agree with him, even if he never gets closer to Africa than the pictures in his daddy's National Geographic.

And after about the third encarnation of Larry Levergun, it gets a little old.

Joe.

I agree, most of these guys ask a question and only want an answer that agrees with their thinking, in which case they should not ask the question because not everyone is going to agree with them....

To ask if the 45-70 is a dangerous game rifle and then everyone says no, then they get ticked and want to argue about it and off the thread goes...but that's OK as long as its kept to intelligent conversation, which sometimes its not...

Then they use Brian Pierces Buffalo hunt as an example showing that the 45-70 will kill a buffalo, but omit that he chased that bull all over Africa and shot him nemourous times...Lucky for Brian the bull was not a brave bull, or the PH would have had to sort it out. The point is that in their passion they make off the wall statments that just are not correct...We all know a 45-70 will kill a buffalo but most of us know it's not a Buffalo rifle, this is what they cannot get in their thick heads, so the battle begins

But its all fun and games, not something to get frustrated over.

I get upset when some of the guys who squawk the loudest in favor of the .45-70 are those who've yet to set foot in Africa, let alone hunt African dangerous game. Then when they don't hear what they want to here they start calling names, etc., and some of the name-calling gets directed at highly respectable guys who have much experience under their belt - far more experience than the squawkers will likely EVER have.

AD

Maybe its just because it has been all said thousand times before, on average probably at least once a month for the last two years. So people are just f***ing sick and tired of it.



Maybe they should learn to use te search function and when it brings up 2000 posts in a year (at least) they will have all the arguments they need to argue with themelves.



And similar to Allen's post, they usually begin "Even though I will probably never hunt in Africa .......".

What Allen says seems to be the tact taken by a few regulars here also. IF you donpt agree with their findings or offer an alternative, their answer is to disparage the poster and the options he might offer. In addition, they are so obtuse that they refuse to cede a point even if proven they are factually wrong. IF you want a gppd primer on this, just go to the Optios forum and view the VARIX-III embroglio over there. You'll see what I mean. jorge

Funny thing, today was my day off and I went to the range. At one point while shooting my GuideGun it hit me that no one had started a .45-70 thread for over a week and we were overdue.

Then someone started a thoughtful one

The .45-70, .405 and a few other cartridges are what I think of as "Cult Cartridges" where their history drives their present popularity more than their actual effectiveness.

When someone says he thinks one would be a dandy gun for killin' ________. Those that killed a _____ or two pipe up with real knowledge and the tussel is on.

Me, I'll listen to those that seem to have killed several __________s, use my Guide Gun as a light dependable brush gun here in the US and take something proper to Africa when the time comes.

Rick

Here's another good primer in bad, excitable behavior.
http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=589292&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&fpart=all&vc=1

It gets pretty ridiculous. 99% of it is the anonymity of the internet. As I said in the post I'm linking, we wouldn't say this sort of thing face to face. Fists would certainly fly if we did.

The other 1% is probably newcomers being uppity. In the first few weeks after I joined I posted some pretty arrogant, judgmental and opinionated crap in response to a certain type of question. I got over that pretty quick.

Others don't ever seem to move out of that phase.

I have shot countless rounds of 40/65, 45/70, and 45/90 in BPCR matches and love them and think they are often underrated by those who have little or no experience with them. That being said I also believe that as hunters we have a huge responsibility to ensure that we use the gun that is most humane and capable of taking whatever game we are pursuing. With dangerous game the additional burden of not only persoal safety, but the safety of the PH, trackers, etc... must be factored in. As much as I enjoy shooting those great cartridges I would not select them for Cape Buff. Just because a cartridge is capable does not mean it is the right choice. I also believe that as hunters/shooters we should always conduct ourselves as gentlemen (and ladies) and not resort to rude and debasing comments. But instead try and educate them properly. If that doesnt work then simply ignore them. PLease dont take my remarks as being condescending in any way. I am just adding my opinion basesd upon my upbringing. I havent experienced anything but the most courteous and helpful comments from all here, especially in light of my ignorance in the arena of African game. Your help is greatly appreciated and my thanks are truly heartfelt.

Russ,
Having been in your shoes myself I can fully understand where you are coming from. War is the ultimate educator, and not always in a good sense. But having seen and experienced some of the same situations as you this last year I agree with you that it is all about perspective. Something that others cant get unless they have seen it themselves. One of the great things about this forum is that so many members have.

Since you also come from a tank background you will appreciate this: Why is a chemlight a tankers favorite piece of equipment? It doesnt take batteries and you have to break it to get it to work.

It's isn't about class it's all about ballistics! I own a Marlin in 45/70. The 45/70 was a heck of a man killer in 1879 when it was adapted as the US Army's round. It shoot's a big slow .458 bullet that was not designed to penetrate a bunch. You need a bolt action rifle to withstand the pressure you need to generate enough velocity to overcome the poor bullet. Loaded up to brutal recoil levels in a bolt rifle you approach, only approach .458 Winny stats. We are all aware of the rep of the .458 Win Mag, and it's a heck of a better round than the straight walled black powder hold over 45/70.

It has nothing to do with class. It is all about ballistics! No amount of magical wide meplat, hard cast bullets will ever make the 45/70 out of a Marlin Lever Action into anything else.

Folks just have tough time realizing that!

Ditto McCray, Allen & Atkinson - The guys arguing the loudest for the 45-70 are folks who have never been there and done that. Most of the statements become black and white after the first volley. The camps become clearly divided. The discussion should be broken down to �Can a 45-70 be used to kill and buff� and Should a 45-70 be used to kill a buff�. And the respective answers are �sure it can� and �no friggen way�.

Sure the 45-70 can kill a buff under perfect circumstances with an experienced hunter, however, it is not in the top 20 of the most appropriate calibers for buff. I would much rather carry a .338 WinMag over a 45-70. The point is - with all the other appropriate calibers from which to choose, why consider the 45-70? It simply becomes a stunt rather than hunting. To me, the 45-70 discussion has nothing to do with hunting and everything to do with ignorant bravado.

And for those who have not gotten enough of the arguing out of your system, your good buddy Carmelo landed on HA after being run off here...

For the same price as a new guide gun a person could find a used .375 or .458. I cant see where it should be a class issue. I see the 45/70, .405, hand cannon ect as an experianced persons alternative. Just for something differant, not a first timers choice.

Yes, there have been quite a few "discussions" about using the 45-70 for dangerous game, but the recent calamity started when a couple of losers showed up at the same time and began fighting it out, claiming that the 45-70 was the ULTIMATE DGR, claiming that it penetrated completely through a cape buff lengthwise, that it killed two buff with one shot, etc....

Some sensitive folks took the absurd bait from the trolls, and the fight was on.

My only 45-70 has a 14" barrel (Contender), but I would dearly love to have a Shiloh Sharps.

One of the points of enjoyment for me when hunting, is using the "proper" gun.

I could have used my 300 Winmag for every thing I took on both safaris, but I bought a .375 H&H and used it instead. It just seemed... right.

If I ever get a chance to go back for cape buff, I would just *have* to take a .416 Rigby.

But if I were hunting American Bison, I would want a 45-70 or 45-90 or 45-110 Sharps.

Rick.

I agree with the prevailing thought that it usually the new guys who bring it up. After getting lectured ad nauseum about their lack of brains and smarts they get a bit defensive. Perhaps a link to one of the previous 100 discussions would be easier.

Having said that how many of you have fired a 405 Mod '95 or a '86 in 45-70 with a crescent buttplate? How can you not think that anything that kicks like that will kill anything on earth?

I have actually known a person who uses MK's to hunt deer/elk with. He couldnt understand why the 6x6 bull he shot ran for over a mile before another hunter finished it off and comenced to educate him on his lack of brain matter. Go figure.

I'm still deeply hurt because none of the 45-70 Buffs took me up on my offer to take one of "their" guns to Tanzania and shoot a Buff with their "miricle bullets", and thereby put the issue at rest....All they had to do was GIVE me a gun and 11 lbs of ammo and the maker of miricle guns and ammo never posted again or took me up on it!!

LMAO, Yea that Garret fellow is a bit sensative for some one who is supposed to be making the greatest kill any thing 45-70 bullet on earth. I read the artice that Rifle magazine published by Pearce. If you look closely at the photo of the buff in the back of the truck you will see a exit wound in the buffs guts. Not one of the three shots that he claims to have made. I think the closest thing to the truth in that article is that he admits he shot the animal once in the azz. Geee, I wonder why that bull took off running

Gentlemen,

I have no wish to start an argument here. I just thought you might wish to know our experience in hunting with Sierra Match King bullets.

In 2000, we hunted in South Africa, and some of our hunters used borrowed rifles and ammo. The ammo was all bog standard soft points.

Whenever possible, we tried to recover the bullets from the animals they have shot. It was not easy, as the skinners did not seem to have a clew of how to look for the bullets if one of us was not around.

Anyway, all the bullets that we were able to find, were in pieces. Generall only the jacket was found. The lead core was nowhere to be seen.

Two years later, as we planned to go to South Africa for plains game hunt, I thought of trying different bullets, including the Sierra MKs.

I built a rifle for our own wildcat, the 30/404, and loaded a few rounds each of MKs, Ballistic Tips, Partitions, A-Frames and so on.

All the bullets we used were 180 grains, and the velocity varied between 3430-3480 fps, using the same powder charge, but due to the different bullets.

I used the Match Kings to shoot nyala, impala, zebra and blue wildebeest. Distances involved were from 20 yards to over 400 yards.

All the animals were killed with a single shot each. We were not able to recover much of the bullets, except parts of the jackets; just we had with normal soft points.

It appears that the MK can be used as reliably as normal soft points.

HI,

I agree with Rusty, I think class is not the problem, it just comes down to numbers and many people who own 45-70 just have a hard time getting a understanding that the numbers just are not there for the 45-70, and I think when that is brought up they take it as one is trying to put it down, which is not true, it is a great round, but not one made for African hunting. I love levers myself and spent 1,000 and 1,000 of bucks on my win86, and then some more, I also am having MR. Brockman custom a 416 rigby for me. I say I would use my lever 50-110 on a buff hunt,within range,but if I could only have one rifle I would use my 416,and I will bring my 416 with me when I get there,Kev

There is also a large difference in your 50/110 compared to a 45/70.

I think a lot of those who are such big fans of using 45/70 on buff lack a true comprehension of what the Cape Buffalo really is. This is something I am learning myself in this forum. I believe that there is more than sound reason why PH's and experienced hunters choose large heavy hitting calbers for buff and that a smart person would pay attention as to why they do.

"I think a lot of those who are such big fans of using 45/70 on buff lack a true comprehension of what the Cape Buffalo really is. This is something I am learning myself in this forum"
M1Tanker, you are on the money big time.I also have never been to Africa yet. And like you say if one spends time on this forum and reads up on Buff, they are some tough bad asses,and they are not American Bisons,Kev

I think Mr. Day back on the first page said it as good as any.
And for those buf--I've heard two colorful discriptions that I especially like, and my experience varifies: 1) They look at you like you owe them a lot of money; and they want it now! 2) They are born pissed off, and it goes down hill from there!

To me, what is sad is that it is never enough for these fanatics when you say that a 45-70 will kill Cape buffalo. I often believe that they are trying to convince themselves more then anything. Their uncertainty is evident with the fact that their conversational argument continues towards only one conclusion... that you agree with them.

Saeed,

That mirrors my experience with Matchkings (190gr in a 30-06) for white tail deer. Drops them very well, in fact better than the premium soft points I have used (namely Barnes "X").

500grains,
I bet you are correct about it being a class thing. Some people trying to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, while others are trying to sound real impressive talking 'bout their overpriced toys!

Scott

***** And for those who have not gotten enough of the arguing out of your system, your good buddy Carmelo landed on HA after being run off here...

Believe it or not, he's over there now blabbering about
how his levergun edges out a 404 Jef for buff.

I posted this picture for him. Just not the same kind of buff.

Thats one way to get a boner

TerryR

I agree with Arts that Allen Day pretty well summed it up. To that I would only add that a DG means just that, a dangerous game (animal). It is appalling to anyone who has seen DG up close to want to see anyone misled into "experimenting" when the consequences of failure may not be, simply, a missed or lost animal - but one's own death. The Bible speaks of "not suffering fools gladly" and maybe the passion you mention is stirred up by a desire to save someone from his own folly. (just as a matter of interest - the 45/70 has been around for over 125 years. Surely in that time those same ammo manufacturers and gun designers who gave us so many great cartridges should have become aware of the 45/70's great virtues? (including the latest "souped up" 45/70s) The discussion reminds me of an old wisecrack about the 9mm pistol cartridge - that it was a cartridge whose time came and went - and came again. (It was not meant as a compliment)

Terry,
You must realize that many who believe in the 45-70 don't consider it the most powerful round for D/G. We consider it way more than adequate and simply much for fun and challenging to hunt with. That combination to us of this belief makes the choice of a 45-70 with proper loads a superior choice than would those too afraid to hunt white tails with anything less than a .375 H&H
Happy Hunting

-The Original Carmelol

I think folks who post asking questions and then don't like the answers should learn something my mother learned a long time ago. If you don't want to know the honest answer to the question, then don't ask. For example, if you want to know why your daughter isn't answering her phone at 3 a.m., then be prepared for her to tell you exactly why.

As soon as I reached adulthood and got over the teenage "covering" deal with my mother, we came to an understanding that she was going to get honest answers. After that the questions were worded much more carefully.

If you want people who just agree with your opinion, then just post something saying for all those who agree that the whatever is the best gun/scope/bag for this purpose please post with comments - others stay away.

JMO,

Shannon
gotogirl3

The history of the 45-70 and it's use/development is very unique. It does not fit the stereotypes of other rounds.

C