My 9.3x62 do a lott of damage to large game like Eland and Kudu with shoulder shots, somebody said that the 9.3x62 don't normally do that and he thinks my 9.3's twist is to fast 1-9 and that makes the difference. can it realy make that a difference or what.

Most 9.3x62's have a 1x14 twist and I have never seen a 1x9 9.3x62 twist, not to say there are none, just that it is rare indeed...

If I had a 1x9 twist in my 9.3x62 I would shoot shovel handles in it, so that they would stablelize.

No doubt the faster a bullet spins the more meat damage it will do as it is bent on tearing the bullet to shreds if spun to fast.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

It might, but consider that the bullet is turning one time every twelve or fourteen inches, as compared to one time every nine inches. If an eland is 24" across the chest cavity, a 1x9 will make the bullet turn roughly 2.5 times as it passes through, a 1x14 will turn almost twice on the same course.
I cannot imagine anyone telling any difference! This fast twist idea was bally hoo'd and promoted years ago with very little evidence of increased tissue disruption. And that was using 1x6 twist barrels.

Try that 1-9 twist with ( Rays ) 320 grain bullets and you will get lots of penetration!

Go to mbogo�s homepage, and look up penetration versus twist.

FWIW, Hermann

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Fair question. I'm going to say no based on bullet performance rather than a scientific experiment. What does a bullet do when it hits bone or heavy muscle? Does it continue to spin or what? I would say yes and no. We've all heard the stories. "I shot him right at the point of the shoulder, but the bullet exited his left testicle". So bullet performance (I believe) is based on the situation of where and what it runs into.

Bullet performance is based on many things, and rate of twist is one of them. But I do not believe that is what "tears up meat". I believe bullet structure and impact area is what tears up meat. You hit bone, splinters fly everywhere, bullet may/may not break up (that is the bullet structure part) continues on though shoulder bone and splinters out the other side.

You slide a bullet between 2 ribs on a broadside shot, bullet makes 2 nice neat holes in skin and ticks animal off.

I'm glad you brought this up because it sures gives room for consideration.

Thanks,

Coon

[This message has been edited by coon (edited 05-14-2002).]

Very interesting subject twist or speed. From what I can gather and had expereince with not that I'm saying that I'm right bullet speed made the big difference between wasted meat or not. If I take my 303 brit for instance I can only think of one shot where I badly wasted some meat on the shoulder but then again that was at a range of 15 meters. While on the other hand if I shoot anything at a range closer than 100 meters I get more meat damage with my 375 H&h and 270 grain bullets running at 2550 fps at the muzzle. It still punches two clean holes even if I hit major bone. Not that the meat is ruined it just needs more cleaning of all the blood.

So I would really like to know if twist will make a difference as I said before I had in mind that it was just speed sure an unbalanced bullet will waste a lot more but let's stick to sabilized bullets.

Safari-Hunt

www.Safari-Hunt.com

I can't believe rifling twist makes a difference in terms of venison damage. IMHO, what happens is that when a heavy bullet hits a heavy bone, the weakest has to yield. Now you have a choice, shoulder shoot your game and it will drop on the spot (with some collateral damage caused by bone splintering) or aim for heart/lung (minimal damage but it may run for a distance). Note that big, heavy, slow slugs may produce big holes but no hematoma, so that you may actually eat right to the edge of the hole. It's exactly the opposite with small and fast moving pills.

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Andr�

PS : I own 2 9,3's and both have a 1-14 twist. Never met one with a 1-9", though.

[This message has been edited by Andr� Mertens (edited 05-14-2002).]

John S and Ray are both correct. Some folks seem to believe that bullets act like drill bits when they strike a target. As John S pointed out, a bullet spins based on the twist rate of the bore and in this situation it is once every 9 inches. Rotational speed has little to do with penetration assuming the bullet was properly stabilized in the first place.

However, high rotational dynamics can literally tear a bullet apart. (This is referred to as an over-stabilized bullet.) This generally occurs within a few feet of the barrel where forces are at their highest. This is a common occurrence with hyper velocity small bores and thin J4 jacketed bullets.

In larger bores, you will see the signs of an over-stabilized bullet when it begins to keyhole at distances - generally past 100 yards. The nose of the bullet maintains its bore orientation throughout its flight to the target. If an over stabilized bullet hits an animal, it �may� not penetrate well. This can cause the bullet to fail quicker, have much less penetration, and cause more superficial meat damage. This is due to the bullet hitting the target more on the side of the jacket rather than the nose. This may cause the bullet to shred on impact.

Remember, as the length (weight) of the bullet increases, the twist rate should also increase - 1:9 is a quicker twist rate than 1:12. If you have a fast twist rate, you should be shooting the longest bullet you can find for the caliber. A 1:9 for a 9.3X62 is very fast.... probably too fast.

Flip - as Ray pointed out, you should be shooting shovel handles through your gun. However, I am surprised that you have not seen keyholing or other poor accuracy traits from your gun. I would suggest that you shoot the longest and heaviest bullet for your caliber. Unfortunately, there are not a ton of bullet choices in 9.3, but I would select the toughest thing I could find. Go back and verify your twist rate again. I cannot imagine anyone cutting a 1:9 twist for a 9.3.

For what it's worth I have seen bullets perfectly expanded but the pettles were twisted in the same direction, counter clockwise as I recall...this would indicate that a tremendous rotational force was applied to them at some point after initial contact, would it not? I have also noticed that most do not show this trait. I have also found many perfectly expanded bullets on the off side skin facing the entrance hole which tells me rotational spin stops and the bullet becomes little more than a slow moving, tumbling object at the end of its energy/velocity trip and that makes since....

Just some observations, what they prove I have no idea. Not sure it makes much difference but it is a interresting conversation piece, if nothing else.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I was going to reply but John S and others have said it all. It don't make a row of beans difference. There are too many other factors to contend with.

Cheers

pete

There is very little energy in the rotational motion of any bullet as compared to the forward component. I feel it's far more important to have enough twist for the bullets that would be used in that rifle and forget the other stuff.

In particular "meat damage" is a issue that someone thinks of after the bullet hits the chops and the game is dead on the ground.

John S's memory is correct on the fast twist theory and I recall the Barnes QT line (quick twist).

Flip,

I think you will find that what kind of bullet you use has much more effect than the rate of twist on meat damage.

What bullet did you use on the shoulder shot?

Extra rotational velocity may improve weight retention because the bullet does not tip or yaw as much and may keep the bullet from turning over 90-180 degrees.

At very high velocity and rotaitonal velocity a "tin foil" bullet will loose more weight than at a slower twist.

For instance, the 270 gr 375 hornady spire point retains 134 gr in a 1-8 twist vs 142 gr. in a 1-12 at 3000 fps. Frontal area is quite a bit less, .469 vs. .544 square inch.

With a long unstable bullet,just the opposite is true, and the quicker twist helps.

I think you will find that bullet construction is more important than twist in a soft point.

Extra rpm is very desirable in a solid as I have posted in other threads.

Andy

Isnt it vel. X twist? That would give you a big differance in RPM with the faster twist, and means the bullet would disrupt far more tissue. I have shot nearly 30 deer from the same distance (same field) as close to the same shot placement as I could, with two 6.5 cal rifles of the same vel. Most of the bullets, 120 nosler SB were from the same box. The rifle with 1-8 twist has yet to penatrate both sides of a deer, and tissue damage is tremendous, pour the lungs out of the animal. The one with the 1-10 twist has complete penatration on all but one deer, and less damage over all. usually makeing a short run, compared to the 1-8 twist animals dropping in their tracks. I've worked my shots to make the comparison as close to the same as possible, and from what I've seen, theres a big differance.

The bullets I used was Barnes X 286, 250 grain, RWS 286 T mantel, Rws 258 H mantel, Lapua 286 Mega, PMP 286 Pro-am, Norma 286 Alaska, Norma 232 vulcun, Speer 270 2400 fps.

They all had good accuracy, only thing is meat damage, but I have to say all my rifles or friends rifles do this amount of damage. 243,270,303,308,30-06,300 winchester,8x57, 9.3x62 and 375 H&H.

I get good accuracy with bullets from 232 grains to 286 grains. My gunsmith told me the twist is 1-9. Anybody know an easy way how to find out what it is.

Flip - If you got a cleaning rod and a tight brush you can easily measure twist. Push your brush through the bore just to the end of the muzzle and place a small piece of tape or other indicator on the top of your cleaning rod. I use liquid paper and place a dot on the rod right next to the action. Then pull your cleaning rod out allowing it to rotate until your index mark reappears in the 12 O�clock position. Make another mark next to the action. Measure the distance between the two marks and you have your rate of twist.

TSJ - you are referring to revolutions over time, we are referring to revolutions over distance. While a bullet spins at a fairly high RPM (time), it still only spins one time every 9 inches of travel (distance) in this case. The variables influencing penetration are numerous and are almost never repeatable. This is why ballistics gelatin tests, while interesting, do not necessarily translate well in the field. The only thing that really counts is what happens in the field. You can shoot 1,000 deer in the field with the same load and achieve 1,000 seperate results.

[This message has been edited by Zero Drift (edited 05-15-2002).]

Zero Drift, I follow you on the time/distance thing.
But wouldnt you call roughly 15 animals each with the two twist,and consistant results each way revealing?

Sure the bullet will continue to rotate for a certain distance after impact. You don't stop high speed rotation that easy by just hitting bone and tissue.

TSJ - Think about what you are saying. One bullet turns one full rotation every 8 inches of travel through the air, the other bullet turns one full rotation every 10 inches of travel through the air.

Now if you are going to tell me that with all things being equal, a bullet which turns a few degrees quicker over the same distance as another bullet makes a noticeable difference in meat damage and penetration, then I would question your statement. The rotational difference between the two twist rates is negligible. You are experiencing coincidental data which lines up in a non-random sequence and drawing conclusions on bad data.

You are well within appropriate twist rates for a 6.5mm. Actually, a 1:9 is best for a 120gr and a 1:8 is best for 140gr. In any event, you are not under or over stabilizing the bullet which could account for a noticeable difference in penetration or tracking through the animal. I would chalk this up to a statical aberration. But if you want to get rid of the meat damaging 1:8 twist, just let me know....

For pure shitsandtickles, you might want to work up a 140gr load for your 1:8 and see how it performs. I have two 6.5X.284 target/varmint guns in 1:9 twist specifically for 140gr bullets and 1,000 yard shooting. Bullet stability is not a problem. Wind, heartbeat, mirage, dust, strange atmospheric anomalies, the color of my shoes, what I had for dinner, and a host of other accuracy gremlins are my problems.

Keep on shooting with confidence with either gun.

It would be good if some of the 'professionals' such as Harald and Gerard could chip in on this.

A shoulder shot damages more meat because the shattered bone acts as secondary projectiles. Also consider that having hit bone the bullet is more likely to expand more quickly and to a greater extent.

I bet shooting the shoulder is most of the reason - have you noticed any difference between the bullets?

Zero drift,
What! get rid of my Lija barreled 6.5 gibbs! I have a 6.5/284, nice round, but that Gibbs is something else.
ok, back to meat damage ....
it's not just me that thinks twist makes a differance. Steve Timm of Varmint Hunter magazine, and slayer of a few hundred thousand prarie dogs said this.... The 1-12 twist in the 223 is completely differant rifle when compared to the 1-14. useing the same 40 grn nosler BT the 1-12 twist makes them act like a 22-250 or a swift. The dogs are blown in two and pulled out out of their holes ect ect.
A PD is what, 2-3" through?, so it should have no effect at all if twsit wasnt a facter. Other serious shooters in VH magazine report the same experiance when they switched to a faster twist.