Before you sigh out loud (too late perhaps), I have read ALL of the archived posts on Russells, Courtenays, etc. Here's my situation...

I am booking a 2 week elephant hunt and need better boots. I basically live in Meindl hiking boots so I'm no stranger to rough walking outdoors. However, I have never done it for 100 plus kilometers. I am in better than average shape and will be even better before I leave in 1 year. I'm also 33 years old and recover pretty quickly still.

I have noticed the comments about no ankle support in the PH boots. I do have 2 weak ankles from injuries. I was looking at the Mohican stalker model. It is listed at 9" tall but what is the PH...about 6"? Does anyone have and hunt in the Mohican Stalker series?

Also, has anyone had the ankle support added to their boots? It sounds like the ticket for me.

Any consensus on which sole is the best for hunting long days in Zim? As much as I would like to try the plantation crepe with a heel, perhaps the brown vibram air bob is the better choice?

Other options that sound essential are the heavy duty toe cap (I scuff my toe area), heel counters if the boot doesn't have them, thorn guard material and speed laces.

I have a set of Courtenays and they don't give any support to me. I just wear them around the house occasionally but mostly they sit in the closet. They are too wide (my wife says they look like Ronald McDonald's shoes) and make my feet tired due to no cushioning. Otherwise, they're great

YD- The shoe industry is evovling quickly. It seems like there are alot of "traditionalists" here and elsewhere that swear by the old style leather construction. Your Meindl boots are a good example of that evolution. I have old injuries as well and have settles on New Balence 6". I got them because the extra width is needed . The 6" is adequate support. Model number is the 851 Hiker. They don't weigh much. You could consider a separate ankle support to be worn under your socks. When I look at the performance of the synthetics the leather just dosen't seem worth the hassle. 8" will be pretty warm on about mile 12 or so....

If you are walking on level sandy ground, Russells are OK. I had a pair of PH2's that I left with my PH in Tanzania last year because they were LOUSY in hilly rocky terrain. I ended up wearing a pair of lightweight laceup hunting boots that supported my ankles and I had no further problems. The first day out with the Russells was all it took to convince me that while they look good on paper, in the field they left something to be desired especially if you have weak ankles. There are many boots on the market that offer much better support and compfort at a much more reasonable price. I will never own another pair of Russells.

Good points. I didn't mean to imply that my ankles are on the verge of exploding but they have turned under occasionally at bad times. I basically don't trust them if I was scrambling during an ele charge. Can you imagine getting a sprained ankle at a time like that?

The large ankle support braces, wraps, etc. are way overkill for what I need. I'm just looking for a little bit extra since everyone seems to say that there is no support in the PH boots.

I haven't owned Russells yet but would like to. I think I can get them setup correctly. I just have to figure that out.

The height of the PH boots is 7". So, either height would be fine. I still need to consider the extra ankle support built in. Anyone have that added and how do you like it?

Also, I noticed that the Mbogo PH has a foam insole and arch supporting wedge. That sounds good. I also like the look of the Mbogo better. Those that have this model, how does the leather in the toe area hold up? Any need for reinforcement there?

You might want to check out the Danner Jackals.

They claim to be designed for stalking and I love the Danners I have owned in the past.

Having said that I recently ordered a pair of Mbogo's from Russell for a trip to Tanzania in July, will let you know if I like them when I return in August.

TJR

I walked right out of a pair of Russells in Zim. The sand cut the thread to pieces. The PH said that was the second pair he saw do that. Russell didn't even respond to my letter.

I would go with high quality modern 6" or 7" walkers. Can't remember the brand off hand.

quote:

I haven't owned Russells yet but would like to. I think I can get them setup correctly. I just have to figure that out.

Sounds like a lot of bother for a pair of boots, when there are plenty of less expensive and much better options available. Good boots with good socks make an all day trek much more bearable. If you have to pay extra for arch and ankle support with the Russells, why bother???

In my experience, you often get what you pay for with boots. My Meindl's are not the cheapest hiking boot but they work very well for me and many others.

A few people don't like Russells (name one product that EVERYONE likes?) but most of their customers are very happy and do repeat business. It doesn't bother me to pay $250 for boots that have good customer service and custom options available. That's not a lot of money for custom fitted boots that I can completely spec out.

Yukon Delta,
If you like Meindl boots, have you considered their Desert Fox boots below?



I've not tried them myself but they look very interesting..the colour, which doesn't show very well in the photo, is said to be "sand"..

They retail in the UK for around $180, but I am betting they would be cheaper in the States..

regards,

Pete

The Russell Mountain PHs given you better ankle support. I have a pair of regular Russell PHs with the vibram sole and they were fine for walking, in fact quite comfortable. For climbing those big rock kopjes in Zim, I bought a pair of Courtneys over there in Bulawayo and they were great for climbing. They only run about 125 over there and I had no trouble breaking them in, and believe me, we walked A LOT after buffalo. jorge

I also gave my Russell's to the PH. He liked them better than his Courtney's.

I didn't like the Courtney's for the same reasons I didn't like the Russell's - no arch support. Mine were the M'bogo version with the Vibram brown air bob, the added arch support, the thorn proofing, the green canvas - stiffer for added ankle support, nato stud lacing.

They also passed the Oct heat right from the ground to my soles and felt very hot. The soles were quiter than the Cortney soles by a long shot.

I wore and liked a pair of 7" Browning Kangaroo leather boots with the brown Vibram air bob sole. These were very comfortable and lighter than the Russell's and didn't pass the heat through to my soles either. Lots more arch support. Both had adequate ankle support, though I did turn an ankle running from elephants when I slipped on a palm frond while making a hard turn in the brush - since I'm writing about it it musn't have slowed me down too much.

The Brownings have Goretex, which is too bad, but the SmartWool socks took care of the issue.

JPK

Yukon Delta,

I was in the exact same boat as you a few months ago. I also have turned my ankles more then a few times and was looking for a boot to walk long African distance after Elephant and Buffalo.

What I ended up with is a pair of Mbogo in full leather (without canvas sides). For options they have; heel counters, arch supporting wedge, double vamp, foam midsole, thorn proof sole liner, brown vibram air bob, pull strap and speed laces.

As far as ankle support I considered going with either the leather lined upper or the reinforced upper ankle support but thought that they might make the boot much too hot in the African heat and after a Russel sales rep confirmed this I decided to go with an all leather boot. I felt this would be a good compromise... Not too hot and more support over the canvas. I told the sales rep that I was worried it wouldn't be enough support and asked if I could send them back after I had recieved them to add more support. They said it wouldn't be a problem. I think the buffalo lether is a little stiffer then the normal leather they use so should add some extra support over the all leather PH. They also suggested I go with the heel counters because according to them it centers your foot in the boot, making your ankle more stable.

I had also heard that some Russell boots had problems with the sole coming off but all of the people I spoke with that this happened to had the crepe soles. Nobody I spoke with that had the brown Vibram Air Bob had this problem which was one reason I chose this sole. A couple other reasons were I wanted these boots to be OK if I needed to do a little climbing and I heard bad things about the crepe soles and sharp rocks. Also I wanted the soles to be longer lasting then the crepe so I can wear them while hunting in the states and elsewhere when appropriate. They may not be as quiet as the crepe but from everything I have heard they are still very quiet.

The arch supporting wedge and foam midsole come as standard on the Mbogo but if they didn't I would have gotten them anyway to add to the support. I got the Thorn proof liner just because they don't detract from the boot in any way and I dont particulary like getting 4" thorns stuck into the bottom of my feet so why wouldn't you add it?

I got the double vamp construction to make the boot slightly stiffer and more waterproof and the pull strap/speed laces to make them easier to get on/off quickly.

I was also considering the toe cap but decided against it after talking to a rep because I was already getting the double vamp. If it makes you feel better then add it but I doubt it would be needed for your typical hunt unless you spend lots of time on your knees.

While I haven't gotten the boots yet/ taken them on Safari I feel pretty good about my order. The only thing that may need changing is the ankle support and since veryone is different that will be something you will have to decide for yourself (ie. how bad your ankles really are). If I end up needing more support I will just send the boots back for one of the two ankle support options.

My advice would be to talk to a sales rep who you feel is knowledgeable. I spoke with a couple that really didn't understand my needs. I think the guy who ended up helping the most was named Doug so if I were you I would call and ask for Doug and go over it with him.

Good Luck

Thanks for all of the replies.

On the Meindl Desert Fox boots, the only thing I don't like about my Meindls is the lacing system on the upper. My laces will stay tied but fall off of the hooks if I'm flexing them very much. That's one thing when you're cutting firewood but entirely different if you're running after (or away from) elephant. I would buy Meindls again but not for dangerous game hunts (although I use them for bear). I also would like a different type of sole than what they offer.

I have thought about the Russell Mountain PH boots. If I went with them I would certainly change out the standard soles. I don't need another pair of hiking boots.

I'm not hunting in the hottest season in Africa but I do ok in the heat with my hiking boots for short to medium distances. Socks as you know are critical and I use Smartwool exclusively.

Bulldog, thanks for your comments. I look forward to hearing about your boots. That's good to know that you can add the ankle support later. I also appreciate the info on requesting Doug for ordering. I will do that. It's also good advice to get the input from Russell on options.

I think it is fair to say that I go against the grain when it comes to this whole "ankle support" debate. Basically I tend to think less is more. Heavy boots with big, thick, bulky soles seem to give the terrain too much leverage which spells trouble for weak ankles.

OK, so you think I am full of BS. When was the last time you rolled and ankle while walking bare foot or while wearing compact athletic shoes? Pretty rare right? But boots are a different story.

On the advice of LV Eric I wore a pair of low top Converse All Stars on my elephant hunt. After two weeks of marching over some very rough country I got my elephant and my knees and ankles never felt better. I have sworn off heavyweight boots for good.

I doubt that I will convince you with words alone. So when you head over take both a light pair of shoes and your fancy boots and try each for a day. My guess is that by the end of the hunt the boots will be forgotten.

So you still think that I am full of it? Ask yourself, when was the last time you saw a PH wearing big boots on an elephant hunt?

Jason

Interesting perspective.

I have never turned my ankle in boots...only in tennis shoes and barefoot. So I guess my experience is different than yours. Sounds to me like a number of PH's were grateful to get the clients Russells, Courtenays, etc.

If you want a cushion in your Russell boots you'd better measure your foot standing on that cushion! There won't be room for an insole unless you do!

I'm a bit disappointed in my boots and the customer service at Russell.

I turn my ankles much more frequently wearing low cut tennis shoes. I think the only time I've ever turned an ankle in boots was when I was running in the bush and slid on a palm frond.

All of the PH's I ran into wore boots too, though only we were elephant hunting at the time.

Take a look at the Kangaroo lightweights. They weigh less than my tennis shoes. Light is good when you need to go for miles.

BTW, I tried a couple of pairs of the lightweight hikers or cross trainers. I felt that my foot wasn't fixed in the boot but was sliding around too much.

FWIW,

JPK

Edit: I don't think you guys in California can buy the Kangaroo boots due to some ridiculous law. They are good enough to have a buddy from out of state get them for you and mail them to you. Reverse the process if you find you need a different size. They're worth the trouble.

Why on earth couldn't we buy boots? I guess I shouldn't be surprised though with all the asinine laws in the great PRC!

Let's talk about the 'roo lightweights for a minute. Is it the Browning lightweight 7" uninsulated for $220 at Cabelas? I have thought about buying some of the upland 'roo boots. It's not a bad idea to wear something like that on the plane and have an extra set of shoes/boots in case you don't like them, tear them up, etc. I plan on packing light but you can't afford to have no backup shoes on something like an ele hunt (for me anyway).

Curious though, you said they were lighter but they look to be about 1/2 pound heavier than the Russell PH's which are 2 lbs 6 oz for size 8's. The 'roos are listed at 2.8 lbs for an unknown size. Also, the price is roughly the same as both are mid $200's.

quote:

The Russell Mountain PHs given you better ankle support. I have a pair of regular Russell PHs with the vibram sole and they were fine for walking, in fact quite comfortable. For climbing those big rock kopjes in Zim

jorge,

I was interested in maybe getting a pair, question, how quiet were the vibram soles? I found some soles make a slapping sound more then others. Also, there are two different PH boot's, which ones did you get? I like I high boot, looks like they will make you just about any height you want.

Didn't someone say the Kangaroo lightweights fell apart on them. Maybe I am mistaken though.

Yukon Delta,

I owned both the Russell's as described in my earlier post and the Browning 7". The Brownings are considerable lighter. I think I wear size 10D normally. Th Russell's were custom fitted, the Brownings fit right at 9 1/2 E or EE.

I took both to Africa and hunted buff and elephant in each on alternating days last Oct. After a couple of days the Russell's stayed in camp and I gave them to my PH when we packed to change camp for a second elephant. I still have the Brownings and they're going back with me in Sept.

Though both have the brown Vibram "airbob" sole, the sole on the Brownings is much thinner. I think this is where much of the weight savings are. Nevertheless, the Russell's were hot on the soles of my feet and the Brownings weren't. Both boots are quiter than the Courtney's the PH was wearing. The Brownings have a lot more arch support.

You might want to look at the Cabelas branded 8" kangaroo leather boot too. They make one without Goretex, which would be a plus, less money too.

JPK
Editted

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:
I think it is fair to say that I go against the grain when it comes to this whole "ankle support" debate. Basically I tend to think less is more. Heavy boots with big, thick, bulky soles seem to give the terrain too much leverage which spells trouble for weak ankles.

OK, so you think I am full of BS. When was the last time you rolled and ankle while walking bare foot or while wearing compact athletic shoes? Pretty rare right? But boots are a different story.

On the advice of LV Eric I wore a pair of low top Converse All Stars on my elephant hunt. After two weeks of marching over some very rough country I got my elephant and my knees and ankles never felt better. I have sworn off heavyweight boots for good.

I doubt that I will convince you with words alone. So when you head over take both a light pair of shoes and your fancy boots and try each for a day. My guess is that by the end of the hunt the boots will be forgotten.

So you still think that I am full of it? Ask yourself, when was the last time you saw a PH wearing big boots on an elephant hunt?

Jason

Jason,

While I agree with regards disliking heavy boots with heavy cleated soles especially for stalking, I have to dissagree with regards the ankle support issue...I have tried it both ways and I need decent ankle support..in fact in the past I have strapped my ankles up with ex military putties when the boots alone weren't good enough..

But each to their own...the important thing is to find what works best for the individual (or more importantly, what doesn't work?) and to do so well in advance of any important hunts..

yukon delta,

I never considered the speed lacing being an issue, but now that you mention it, I have had it come undone on my meindl's, but never gave it a second thought...Not sure what you dislike about the sole, but on the Desert Fox it must be fairly lightweight as they are listed as weighing 750grams per pair which I think is around a 1.6lb??

The browning Kangaroo leather uplander hunters look a very nice boot and one I have often considered getting, but i just don't like buying boots mail order, especially from another country..

Regards,

Pete

Ahh, the Cabela's brand is the one I have looked at in the past. I haven't tried one on yet but will try to do that when I get to Cabelas in about a month. They still rate that one at 2.4 lbs which isn't bad. I'll take a look at all of these 'roo boots in about a month. I noticed that they are getting taller...9" uppers.

Pete, I didn't notice the weight being that low on the Meindl Foxes. I'm keeping my options open (especially in regards to a "backup boot") so thanks for the info.

If you want a supportive and very comfortable boot for high mileage treks, you would be hard pressed to do better than the Oakley Special Forces Assault boot. It is the favorite boot over in the sandbox wrt comfort. Running shoe comfort with minimal breakin required. I love mine. I also think very highly of Russels boots. Two trips to Africa in PHs's with crepe sole with no problems. These are the coolest and quietest footwear available, IMHO.

Yukon Delta,

I suppose if you really liked the Desert Fox and the only issue was the speed lacing, it would be possible for a local cobbler to remove the hooks and replace them with either D rings or eyelets..I mean its not as if you have to worry about buggering up a waterproof membrane or anything...

Joe,

Are these the ones you're talking about?



Regards,

Pete

quote:

When was the last time you rolled and ankle while walking bare foot or while wearing compact athletic shoes? Pretty rare right?

Actually I just did last week while hunting in Zim. Turned it when climbing through the rocks hunting buffalo in my Northface Trail tennies. Got my feet tangled up and took a header. Ended up switching over to my Russell Chuckas. Thightened them way tight, loaded myself up with Advil, and only had a couple of twinges over the next couple of days.

-Steve

I am probably a majority of one but I like my Russel Sheephunters which are 10" and triple construction with heel counters and Govt studs.I have worn them on 8 trips to Zim and have no complaints at all. They have Gro-Cord soles. Have had no problems in any area of the country from rocks to low-veldt. Stand up good to water and are totally comfortable. Not cheap but good.

Zim, I don't doubt that those boots have worked for you. What kind of mileage have you seen on those trips with those boots? That's 8 trips on the same pair right? How much life is left in them?

Impressive. You won't be doing that in tennis shoes.

When it comes to boots one strike and you're out. That's where my Russel Sheephunters went. I wore them out on one dall sheep hunt. It was a horseback hunt and didn't hike that much. By the end of the trip the sole was falling off and the stitching was coming apart. I have never worn them again. This time I went shopping for a different boot,(so far I've been impressed with the Meindl Canadian Hiker)

That's an odd experience. Clearly, that boot was a real lemon and not representative of most of Russell's work or they would never have repeat customers. Exhibit B is the same boot model to Zim for 8 trips with no failures.

The problem with hunting clothing and equipment is that if it fails, we are very unforgiving...and if it succeeds then we idolize it. The truth is often found somewhere in the middle.

I won't disagree with you on the Meindl's. They are great in my experience.

I have in the 8 trips not hunted less than 14days and the last 3 were 30days and 60days and 60days. Most all of this in the field and boots were worn MOST days. I live in Southern Arizona and hunt quail here in season. The boots look and feel almost as new and the soles are good to go. I am thinking of having them resoled with the air-bob soles. The gro-cords are a LITTLE slick sometimes, but feel good and wear like iron. Only Russels I've ever had, I had them made for my first trip. I took a lower pair of boots one year but only wore them a couple of days and went back to the Russels in mid-hunt. Left the low boots for a tracker. They are treated with silicone before each season and seem to maintain waterproff well. They are kinda warm in warm weather but I have only been to Africa in Aug/Sep before it's REALLY hot and I DON'T wear them much in So. Az in summer. I'm not hard on boots. I wore 2 pairs of Corcoran jump boots thru 2 years of active duty and 1 year of reserve before they wouldn't pass inspection.

Wow ...

I got my first pair of Russells 35 years ago. They were Kangaroo topped Birdhunters. Over the years I wore out 3 sets of soles and the last time they went back to Russell they indicated the last fella that resoled they screwed them up.

So I replaced them with the Mountain PH style and went to Africa. They worked fine and they'll go again this year.

I can't imagine a pair falling apart on a horse hunt. I'd have sent them back with a message of great concern!

Zim, what kind of hunts are you doing that are 30 and 60 days? Do you guide there? Any rough idea how many miles you've put on those boots?

Mstarling, I would like to hear more about your Mountain PH boots. What do you like and dislike about them?

I have hunted elephant in several boots, including Meindl and Russell. As an owner of a weak pair of ankles, when hunting North America I always use boots with good ankle support. However, due to the very rapid pace of walking while ele hunting, such boots bite big chunks of meat off of my feet. The reason seems to be that my feet have a different motion pattern while walking at a rapid pace than while walking at a medium pace. So while ele hunting I like a soft pair of boots, like Russell, that is very well broken in. And the lack of ankle support has not been an issue at all while ele hunting.

Thanks Dan. That's good to know and makes a lot of sense to me. I'm probably going to order my boots this week or next. Do you have the PH or PH 2 model and how did you spec yours out?

I have a good friend who is a PH/Outfitter there and I spend lots of time with him. Have no idea of miles. I only remember one hunt where the followup on a wounded Eland was over 20 miles. This was near West Nicholson. Lots of hours spent walking but really don't have any idea of miles. You walk a lot after Elephant. I don't walk any more than I have to that's for sure.

I have two pair of Russell chucka type shoes or boots...what every you wish to call them. Had my foot measured at the DSC convention and etc. First pair fit great and feel good but they are going back to Russell today as they leak like a screen door and while cleaning off mud in one of the crevices the stitching came unsewn and now I know why they are so leaky. They have not seen hard service by any means. Matter of fact the guys at the event where I wore them were kidding me becuase I had shined shoes.
They feel good, look nice but I am wondering about the quality of assembly.
The second pair just like the first but with less aggressive sole...kinda my Sunday Go To Meeting pair and not my everyday pair. Problem to start with was not the same room in the toe width...sent them right back and had them stretched but still the left one is a bit tight.
I can wear them ok but there sure is a difference in comfort between the first and second pair...both same style (different soles) and for $225 each pair I am not so impressed.
I have an old pair of Browning Kangaroos that have gone thru hell and high water...they are not the Gore Tex ones and they have the crepe type soles. I just got another pair recently but with Gore Tex...At $150 I think they are better. My problem is I have a very narrow foot and can not buy many of the good boots that I have sold in past years in my store (such as Danner) so I am limited to who makes B widths. That is one of the reasons I thought I would try Russell because I could be custom fitted.
I like them but I don't think they are going to hold up and I wish #2 left felt as good as #1 left but...