i've been watching hunting fees go up and up for years now. but in the past trophy fees in a given area were always pretty consistent. lately however it seems like they are all over the place. Buffalo in zim for instance i see range from 2500 to 7000. lion fees are all over the place, sable are as bad as buffalo. trophy fees are one of the ways people control the price of the hunt to fit their budget and t;he variance is really making them shop. kinda of curious

Butchloc...

Trophy Fee Prices are because they Outfitters and PH's can charge what the market will bear...

As some PH's / Outfitters are booked years in advance, the way to thin the herd is to raise your prices, and then raise your prices again. The clients with money can afford to pay and do so willingly because of the results that are associated with the PH's and outfitters. Going Lion and or Leopard hunting it pays to go with a quality outfit and have a chance the first year vs a marginal outfitter. I have listened to stories of hunters who have gone of 3 or 4 different leopard hunts and have never seen a leopard. and then you have the hunter to pays more to go with a quality PH/outfitter and has taken 3 leopards in 3 tries. You tell me Which one was the most cost effective.

Next you will need to take a look at trophy quality being produce and the price.

I have found PH's - outfitters charge more if they have a quality name and produce quality trophy's.

Some of the PH's/outfitters in the marginal areas will charge a lower trophy fee, however you have no idea as to trophy quality you will have a go at...Anyone can post pictures of trophy animals, it is easy to borrow a picture from someone else in the computer age.

What i have to advise is that you build a spread sheet and compare the different PH's and outfitter daily and trophy fees to see what the bottom line will be for the hunt/safari you are looking at.

There has always been some variation in the trophy fees of any species. I think that phenomenon is increasingly showing up at least partially due to the increasingly diverse daily rates we see these days. Lots of creative pricing strategies out there lately which is a good thing...something for everyone! Of course low daily rates correlate with outfitters who charge high trophy fees and vice versa. Frankly, on some species, like Leopard, and under the right circumstances I can really appreciate the high trophy fee pricing strategy as it ensures that the outfitter has some skin in the game. I really respect the confidence of a Leopard outfitter charging plains game daily rates and a $7000-$8000 trophy fee. Similar thing with elephant or lion. In this way, and it is not for everyone or even for me under all circumstances, I can also get behind the sliding price scale according to trophy size. Certainly the guy who is after a 100 pound elephant wins when the outfitter has a big financial incentive to make it happen.

EBOLA crisis may change Africa pricing significantly in the near future....??!! ###@%&&!!??
How about the Obama moratoriums on import of Ivory...changing pricing if you can't bring it home....bet it does if this is NOT short lived!!

Cheers,

Sir,

Quality free range areas in Africa are becoming very high in demand. Just so much as the P.H.'s that hunt these areas.

In South Africa we saw a massive hike in prices, so much so that I believe it I killing our industry slowly. The reason in South Africa for price hikes seems to be that the demand exceeds the supply for TROPHY animals.

Namibia, although cheaper, are not far behind on the price hike scale, and I can see their hunts also increasing with more than the usual 10% per year.....

Where it goes I do not know.....

quote:

Namibia, although cheaper, are not far behind on the price hike scale, and I can see their hunts also increasing with more than the usual 10% per year.....

That's also one of of the problems. Most businesses don't grow at ten percent a year or salaries for that matter.i wonder what the average salary growth is a year at the moment in the USA and EUROPE

Zimbabwe Goverment fees for Cape Buffalo have increased from $1500.00 to over $5000.00 in 4 years. Outfitters have had to pass the increase on to hunters. My Ph last year told me he used to pay $1500.00 and charge hunters $3000. Last year he charged $3500.00 and had to pay $3700.00 actually losing $200.00 on every buffalo trophy. His trophy fee this year is $5000.00 with no mark up. Maybe a Zimbabwe outfitter can opine on next years goverment fees. In the past you would frequently see Buffalo hunts all in for under 10K the new norm is over 15k and rising. I think a lot of hunters have been priced out of DG hunting.

Also the breeding market plays in. There are fewer "good" open areas, then on farms the breeding stock are bring astronomic prices. I have a friend that has about 120 buffalo cows, he sold a young bull with potential to be a over 45 inch bull for $45k US....so that takes another option away--demand is the same, but other options are drying up--less supply.

Ed

quote:

Originally posted by jimmara:

quote:

Namibia, although cheaper, are not far behind on the price hike scale, and I can see their hunts also increasing with more than the usual 10% per year.....

That's also one of of the problems. Most businesses don't grow at ten percent a year or salaries for that matter.i wonder what the average salary growth is a year at the moment in the USA and EUROPE

Zim buff hunt all in prices up between 40-50 percent between 2010 and 2014.

Airlines fares have increased the least.

If you keep compound hunt price increases at 10 percent a year with flat wage growth in us/Europe and govt bonds at between 1-2 percent - good luck selling hunts in 5-10 years.


Look at the hunts offered selection - some prime areas in zim not sold out.

Also Ebola and more importantly the absolute bloodbath im energy prices and oil and gas equities - lot less buying in Dallas and Houston shows is my bet.

Mike

Not only are the hunt and Trophy Fees up....think about all of the "hangers ons" such as dip and pack specialists-fees, freight forwarders-fees, documentation specialists-fees, that all used to be done by the Outfitters before THEY delivered to the Airlines for direct shipments to Clients/Taxidermists. Airlines are up, Insurance now required by airlines-fees. Then on the Client side, Import Brokers-fees, usually Freight to Taxidermist because of time and distance and they won't do it anymore.....I have heard of these fees (without Air) being HIGHER than the hunt cost or trophy fee costs!!...and then Taxidermist -Fees that have soared faster in Percentage than the hunt costs!!
All of this compounds AGAINST the Golden Goose...the hunters who spend the money....Frankly, this scenario is KILLING Africa....and it is all about greed and extracting more and more out of International HUNTERS....There is an END to TOLERANCE and budget.
I will bet there are more hunters that stretch to hunt Africa than there are well heeled and willing to pay anything it takes....Africa is SADLY becoming a sport for the Rich and Famous.
YES, I can afford these fees, I am not Rich, BUT I WILL NOT feather these beds to my own detriment....the more we go, the more we are acknowledging these actions...IT IS TIME FOR PUSHBACK!!
Cheers,

470 EDDY,

I swear, when the era of the 'rich American' ends, it is gonna be the kickoff to the Dark Ages 2.0

Much of the world seems to run off of American consumerism and it is viewed as an inexhaustible supply that can be turned up at will.

I guess I don't really blame them, since our .gov spends borrowed money all over the world like a drunken sailor and an immigration/foreign policy that would make any third world .gov official shake his head in disbelief.

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
I will bet there are more hunters that stretch to hunt Africa than there are well heeled and willing to pay anything it takes....Africa is SADLY becoming a sport for the Rich and Famous.
YES, I can afford these fees, I am not Rich, BUT I WILL NOT feather these beds to my own detriment....the more we go, the more we are acknowledging these actions...IT IS TIME FOR PUSHBACK!!
Cheers,

Does one really need to stretch to go on the second or tenth safari ? I can see someone stretching for the 1st safari. But at the end of the day - this is just a very expensive discretionary vacation. Can always find something else to spend the money on. For me when an all in cape buffalo hunt approaches a brand new F-150 there are better uses of my money.

Mike

Kind of surprised everyone is acting like this happened (ing) in a vacuum. Someone remind me what inflation looks like and some of it's causes?

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
Kind of surprised everyone is acting like this happened (ing) in a vacuum. Someone remind me what inflation looks like and some of it's causes?

We are pretty close to a deflationary world - governtment bonds at 2%.

Only thing that happen in a vacuum was Uncle Bob thought $2,000 to $5,000 a buff - stupid american would not care.

Given the hunts offered on this forum I assume they did care.

Mike

GENTLEMEN and WOMEN-
I also assume that you know very well that there is generally a THREE tier pricing system that affects a lot of International hunt pricing?? It is always denied, but if you go to international shows such as those in Europe/Germany you will be surprised if not SHOCKED!!
Price for Locals of the Continent- usually 1/2 to 1/3 of Stated US prices!
Price for Europeans and other Countries, NON-US usually 1/2 of stated US prices!
US "List Prices"....upwards of 100 to 300% over European and Locals respectively!!

That should raise your HACKLES if you aren't aware!! It is same for Taxidermy and all associated fees as well....

I have seen it time and time again in printed brochures or on Websites where you can select Country or Language!!...or visiting local shops!

US Hunters have been constantly pursued as the Gold Standard/Mine for years....we are now more compromised with our WEAK DOLLAR and the impact is even GREATER....GO FIGURE!!

Cheers,

After you get into your 7th-10th to 16th safari....your sights are always set higher...now the LD Eland for me....and yes, I can afford it....but it is a stretch and a justification issue when my wife and I can both enjoy a FANTASTIC ultra-luxury, all Inclusive cruise on a ship of 300-500 people for $1000/day all in. Stretch for the LD Eland or is it TRADE OFF....its all the same....and as it gets more expensive....the trade off to the Cruise becomes much more enticing!!
After two or three failed North American hunts at $700/day one begins to reexamine the alternatives....has guided hunting become TOO GREEDY for the purveyors and all of the hangers ons to justify?? I am thinking SO....now with EBOLA delaying Africa plans for many, how will outfitters entice and relight the fire after the dust settles??

Cheers,

470Eddy - How much difference have you seen in LD eland hunts... the same hunts being marketed in different venues?

quote:

We are pretty close to a deflationary world - governtment bonds at 2%. Only thing that happen in a vacuum was Uncle Bob thought $2,000 to $5,000 a buff - stupid american would not care.Given the hunts offered on this forum I assume they did care.

Government bonds @ 2% indicate an aversion to risk or a central bank that prints dollars (causing inflation) and acts as a purchaser of last (only) resort, or both. While CPI might show 1.6% in the US, it does not reflect the inflation rates of necessities such as food and energy. It also does not reflect the inflation rate of what a US dollar can buy in foreign markets. While the US dollar has enjoyed a recent ascent in value, overall, foreign retail markets are giving less and less value to the dollar, I would imagine the subject of this thread is an example of just that. The international community has been getting cornholed by our exporting of USD inflation, what wasn't considered was the day that all of that currency comes flooding back in and there aren't enough traditional financial assets to mop up all of the liquidity, those not in the "know" (most) are going to get f*cked like a tied goat. But what do I know, I sell bags of cement for a living.

This is a very interesting subject. I have been on over a dozen African safaris over the years and enjoyed everyone of them.

For the last ten years or so, the push to a lot of American hunters was that you could do a full a African safari for the cost of an outfitted elk hunt. I am not so sure this is the case anymore. Daily fees, trophy fees, government fees, Airplane costs, export/ import costs, shipping of trophies have all risen pretty dramatically. New fees like bar bills, transport fees and even "permit fees" are starting to make their way in. The fact is that the trajectory simply is not sustainable. The market ultimately will correct this as outfitters go out of business, consolidation takes place etc. Outfitters will not be able to continue to raise prices to make up for lost clients. The crash will be hard and is inevitable

On the dangerous game front, costs will always rise as the demand of the high ticket stuff will always be there as there are lots of either wealthy or motivated hunters who will continue to do so under any circumstances.
I will continue to hunt DG but not as frequent. I will seek quality PG outfitters who have reasonable daily fees but shoot less animals. If costs get ridiculous, I will just take a break for a few years and hunt somewhere else.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

We are pretty close to a deflationary world - governtment bonds at 2%. Only thing that happen in a vacuum was Uncle Bob thought $2,000 to $5,000 a buff - stupid american would not care.Given the hunts offered on this forum I assume they did care.

Government bonds @ 2% indicate an aversion to risk or a central bank that prints dollars (causing inflation) and acts as a purchaser of last (only) resort, or both. While CPI might show 1.6% in the US, it does not reflect the inflation rates of necessities such as food and energy. It also does not reflect the inflation rate of what a US dollar can buy in foreign markets. While the US dollar has enjoyed a recent ascent in value, overall, foreign retail markets are giving less and less value to the dollar, I would imagine the subject of this thread is an example of just that. The international community has been getting cornholed by our exporting of USD inflation, what wasn't considered was the day that all of that currency comes flooding back in and there aren't enough traditional financial assets to mop up all of the liquidity, those not in the "know" (most) are going to get f*cked like a tied goat. But what do I know, I sell bags of cement for a living.

All valid points but far more applicable to real world emerging economies and some third world western economies (Greece).

I don't think they apply to African hunting. African hunting, especially Zim, reflects short term opportunistic behavior by a criminal government. Uncle Bob just squeezed the golden goose (US hunter) too much. The US hunter tolerated all the Zim bs (inflation, shortages, criminal government) to hunt there. The Zim PH did an awesome job to keep hunters separated from the Zim bs.

We got there, stayed in a nice bed and breakfast, flew to camp, camp was always we stocked, hunted, went home and trophies got home. The Zim PHs worked their buts off to make sure none of the ZIm bs affected the hunts. The US hunters came when no one else would come. The game went on.

Then Uncle Bob decides to put the financial squeeze on US hunters - jack up trophy rates and put an implicit tax on outfitters jacking up daily rates. Problem is hunting in Africa at the end of the day is just an expensive vacation - nothing more nothing less.

Raise the price to a point - people just stop showing up. I have not seen any other vacation activity prices rise at the same rate as a Zim buff/africa dg hunt - ski resorts, vegas, beach resorts. Nothing else on consumer discretionary side has gone up 40-50% in last 5 years and talk of 10% more per year as a rule of thumb.

Buff hunt approaches a F-150 and a full bag Tanzania safari gets to the price of a US median house people will step back. There will always be a set for whom price does not matter - flying Gulfstrean GV to get to Africa - transport is more than the cost of the hunt. Problem is african hunt industry is not based on the Gulfstream GV crowd - some outfitters maybe but not the industry. Why we have DSC and SCI shows - mass market selling.

Maybe Uncle Bob or now Aunt Gracie realizes it - but I will not be waiting for that anytime soon.

Mike

No way could I argue that some of this is not caused by greedy dictators or their minions. But I think you help make my point in a couple of ways. Some have argued (in this thread) that American hunters are viewed by vendors/governments as a bottomless piggy bank, while failing to realize that the majority of the dollars are held in the bottom portion of a pear shaped market, in other words, there are far more "middle class" dollars than higher end dollars that do not consider the concept of "affordability", it seems you agree with me on this. Your observation that my previous statement was more "applicable to real world emerging economies" would indicate that perhaps you forget what world the PH's/operators are operating in. All of the commodities they purchase, domestic help they employ and energy they procure to isolate their clientele from the "zim bs" is purchased in a third world economy. Having hunted with some of the same outfits as you, I can see how these things would be looked past. Either way, constructive conversation.

Is there not a golden opportunity for Mozambique to pick up the lion's share of the hunt business if they'll just hold costs steady?

RE LD Eland marketed in Europe huge, 50% vs US prices!!



Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:
No way could I argue that some of this is not caused by greedy dictators or their minions. But I think you help make my point in a couple of ways. Some have argued (in this thread) that American hunters are viewed by vendors/governments as a bottomless piggy bank, while failing to realize that the majority of the dollars are held in the bottom portion of a pear shaped market, in other words, there are far more "middle class" dollars than higher end dollars that do not consider the concept of "affordability", it seems you agree with me on this. Your observation that my previous statement was more "applicable to real world emerging economies" would indicate that perhaps you forget what world the PH's/operators are operating in. All of the commodities they purchase, domestic help they employ and energy they procure to isolate their clientele from the "zim bs" is purchased in a third world economy. Having hunted with some of the same outfits as you, I can see how these things would be looked past. Either way, constructive conversation.

BY real world emerging economies - I meant countries that have real economies - Egpyt, South Africa ect.

I don't for a second think that any outfitters or PHs are getting rich in this world where hunt prices have gone by 40%-50%. They are no outfitters/PHs in Zim sitting around drinking cocktails and looking at their offshore bank accounts and hedge fund investments. They are struggling to keep their operations running and their client hunters for lack of a better word cocooned from the realities of Africa.

I just think the African governments (or criminals in change) need to realize that its not a never ending gravy train from the US. The problem is there guys time discount terribly or quote a zim ph "they will cut down a tree to get the last fruit and not think about next year." The don't realize till they go past the cliff.

Like it or not - African hunting business is built on upper middle class American hunters. They are not enough Arab princes, Russian oligarchs or American billionaires to hunt or shoot or employ everybody in the business today.

Given commodity prices - these African political-criminals are getting squeezed on much bigger front.

Mike