Just wondering, why not more discussion of doubles? Some of you must own and use them. I am begining to think seriously about them now that I have shot a couple of buff. Can't say I really think they are necessary, just neat...

Related question; what do you think of the various rimmed 450-400s? With balistics about like the .404 they must be OK.

Brett,
There has been plenty of discussion on doubles and the 450-400, as well as the other fine cartridges, your just slow getting here...

Rusty and I both shoot that caliber in our doubles, his is a 3plus and mine is a 3"...My Jefferys is "Sweet Thang" and she will shoot about any load to the same POI and in an inch, you can't get better than than with a double..

I shoot a 400 gr. GS FN, or Woodleigh softs at 2155 FPS and it hammers the black bulls...RL-15 or IMR-4831 both work in this gun equally at that velocity...Warning: most doubles won't turn in this kind of flexability or accuracy, and most are purty'er than "Sweet Thang" but thats not a big deal with doubles at 25 to 50 yds...It does warm my heart and she will be here when I die, and become a family heirloom.

After you have shoot a few Buffalo, as you have, thats the next step up the ladder..Are they needed? who knows, but when push comes to shove with dangerous game, they definately give you the edge and a big edge at that, they have saved lots of beacon over the years, that cannot be disputed by intelligent knowing folks...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Double rifles, Mausers, and Buffalo "ARE" Africa! Some other things will do, but they are only imatations at best!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
also DUGABOY1
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

Brett,

a double for hunting big game is NOT necessary. But if you can afford one, why not?
Most people spend their money on the hunt itself then spend most of it on a double.

A bolt rifle is just as good, maybe even better for hunting purposes, but a double adds to the African experince and Hemingway.

I have just sold my Westley Richards double .470 NE and have put up my Heym double .375H&H sidelock for sale. Since I have retired from the horrible task of acting as a PH I only need bolt rifles for my hunting during the rest of my life.

Bjorn

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bjorn Klappe:
Hi Gentlemen,
I'm Curious about the speed of double rifles. I know about the one two punch of doubles but how long does it take to shoot the third and fourth rounds. I'm not talking about putting in two more shells and just yanking the triggers. Have you ever had someone time you for four aimed shots. Lets say 25 yds. with a 4 inch bullseye, all in the bullseye or they don't count. Just watching videos with guys shooting doubles I haven't seen any speed reloading under tight situations. I'm just curious as to what is realistic. The fastest shooting I've seen with doubles is watching the Cowboy shoots on American Shooter with the old 12 guage shot guns. 470 Mbogo

I can get off 4 shots in a double as fast as I can get off 4 in a bolt gun...I was timed on that a few years ago. I don't recall the times, but they were very close...

the bolt has the advantage of a scope and a clearer view of the animal, but for Buff, Lion and elephant up close I still prefer the double and it has saved some lives on more than one ocassion with that instant 2nd shot. In todays world, it could conceivably still save someone, but with PH's and other hunter with you in the bush, it may or may not be a real plus, but folks still get tossed and injured and killed by Buffalo, Lion and elephant every year..A prime example is my good friend and top PH Johann Calitz....if it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone.

I just got a wonderfull tape from Saeed and he didn't get exactly charged but he had a big bull looking for his skinny butt, and the only reason he didn't get a full blown charge was good shooting before old N'Yati located him....he sho was looking!!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Atkinson:
[B]I can get off 4 shots in a double as fast as I can get off 4 in a bolt gun...

Yes, that is correct if you,like Ray, have trained enough.
The main reason for carrying a double is the quick follow up shot.
Bjorn

Ray:

I saw that look in that buffalo in Saeed's video too. But most of these guys think buff hunting isn't dangerous. Ha.

I carried the .416 one day ele hunting last month. We got into maybe 70 elephant that day. One bunch must have been 25 mixed bulls, cows, and calves, with us right in the middle of cows with an attitude. By the end of the day I was emotionally stressed out.

Back to the double. Bolt actions are just not the same.

Well Ray was amost completely right again!
My A. Hollis and Son is a 450/400 3 inch.
I like the chambering for a couple of reasons.

Ray's is a 60 Cord gun while mine is regulated in the tropical loading of 55 Cord. Mine is regualted for 1950 FPS or there abouts.

First reason is I own a rifle chambered in that Caliber!

Secondly, I have become a bit recoil sensitive and the 450/400 doesn't beat me to death like a 470 does!

Thirdly, I find it an all around caliber(if there is such a thing) that you can carry all day, shoot plains game with it and be ready for a nice buff should one cross your trail!

Brass and bullets are readily available!

As far as a good reason to own a double rifle? Well, I can't think of one! You can be more versitle, drive a bullet faster with a bolt gun, and swat stuff at long ranges.

That all said, there is nothing as fine as bringing the express sights into battery over the muzzles of a double rifle! Like Ray said, mine will be passed down in the Family!

Since when did any of us need a "GOOD" reason to buy a rifle?

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Rusty

We band of brothers!

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 11-15-2001).]

I agree with Rusty, I just shoot the 450-400 better with a 400 gr. bullet at 2150 FPS...I find the 450-400 in either lenth kills as well as anything including the 470 but not like a 500....that said the 450-400s real assent is it will out penitrate them all with a solid, due to lenth of bullet and slow velocity...It has made its mark in Africa and loved by all the old ivory hunters, never heard a bad word on this one...It's just a nice gun.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I agree with Rusty, I just shoot the 450-400 better with a 400 gr. bullet at 2150 FPS...I find the 450-400 in either length kills as well as anything up to and including the 470 for all practical purposes, but does not have the knock down of a 500....that said the 450-400s real assent is it will out penitrate them all with a solid, due to lenth of bullet and slow velocity...It has made its mark in Africa and praised by all the old ivory hunters, never heard a bad word on this one...It's just a nice caliber for a doublegun.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Here we go again! the double rifle mutual admiration society, sheesh!

And Ray couldn't help but fire twice!

It's OK JohnS! We like our bolt rifle also!
Just an insurance post by Ray to make sure it was down! You know it's the dead threads that come back and bit ya!

Rusty
We band of brothers!

[This message has been edited by Rusty (edited 11-16-2001).]

So there ya go, two quick shots worked again. Now you guys know I love Mausers, and M-70's..and I do hunt with a 404 and a 416 Rem at the present, but old "sweet Thang" is allways close by...

BTW, the Gunlist has a Rhodda 450-400-3" 60 gr rifle for sale under double guns for about $4900 as I recall and you might get it for less, who knows!! That seems like a good deal to me...

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

You guys make such an easy target!
As long as it makes you happy, please use one. After you guys get tired of passing up those 80-100yd shots I'll have more buffalo to shoot at with my 416!

[This message has been edited by John S (edited 11-16-2001).]

I too can�t resist. Since the long thread over at HA ( now deleted ) I learnt a lot.

I still think the 450/400 3" to be a top choice. But, Rusty, bullets and brass readily available? At least expensive.

Another possibility would be the mother of all: the .450 NE. The advantages: its a real DGR and bullets are .458. Now there should be some choice. Are ASquares in 465 grs still available?

BTW the Brits used 480 grs bullets in the 45 diameter. Why Winchester with its smaller case went for 500 I don�t understand. Perhaps if they had stuck to 465 to 480 grs the velocities would have been better and less trouble.

Good shooting! H

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I can only think and imagine what it would be like to use a double on Cape Buffalo, especially my 450/400.
My next sojourn will be with a double, after the daggaboys.
I think the magazine boys have it wrong. Yes , they can shoot them at 120 yards, but the real thrill of going after the big ones, is to get in close and pick your shot. To me that is the thrill of the hunt, not the long range stuff.(For what it's worth.)

John S,
I know that .416 of yours is a killer. However who wants to shoot buffalo over a 100 yards away?
You might consider a double in 500/416? Awesome round! You can find several doubles chambered in that round!

AHunter,
Brand new brass from MAST Technology in Nevada, bullets from Woodleigh/Hawk.

Granted the Woodleigh solids are a bit steep, but the makings are readily available.
No more difficult than buying brass or bullets from Midway!

I actually saw a H&H Royale Deluxe in 22 Hornet. Now talk about a double rifle! The ultimate turkey rifle!

Rusty
WE band of brothers!

Well I hate to be the bearer of bad news John old boy, but I can hit a Buff in the heart with my double rifle and iron sights at 100 yds everytime or at least 99% of the time or as well as I can with a bolt gun...

At 200 yds, you got me, maybe, never shot my double at 200... but I don't shoot Buffalo at over 100 and its no great deed to change rifles if a scoped gun is needed, Mogli the water boy has my 375,9.3 or 338 scoped on his shoulder every time I leave camp...I have opted for a scope one time that I recall for buff. had to thread the needle on that old boy. I have never felt any great need for a scope or bolt gun for Buffalo, Lion, Hippo or elephant. I use a bolt scoped rifle for Leopard.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ahunter-
Winchester used the 500gr bullet in their 458 so as to compare with the weight and ME of the 470, which was the standard of the day back then.

Rusty-
Old buddy, I've done been there and done that, never cared for a double and after owning them in 465, 470, 500 and 577 I still don't feel they are the equal of a good bolt gun. Guess I'm like Selby, Johnson, Manners, Aagard and a host of others!

Ray-
Iron sights are for me as useless as tits on a boar, past 40yds or so. Like Saeed, I'll take my 2.5-8x Leupold anyday over the best express sights.

After you've spent the money to do 21 days in Tanzania, then see a 46"+ buffalo standing out there at 125yds after a couple of weeks of hard hunting, tell me you'll walk away! I sure as hell won't because he is what I came there for. If shooting him at 125yds ain't good enough because it's not up close and personal, oh well. I learned a long time ago that you take 'em as they come!

I am just wondering why Ray would stoop to a scoped bolt action for leopard? Is it the need to pick out a rosette and hit it spot on? Or is it the need for an explosive hypervelocity bullet in such light and dangerous game? The bolt action does better at both, doesn't it?

I am also reassured by the words of wisdom that issue from John S. I don't have to feel inferior if I am not toting a side by side, non-ejector, double triggered, non-automatic safety, sidelock in 450/400 or larger caliber of double rifle.

Obviously the only thing the double rifle is better at than the bolt action is the delivery of shot number two with the greatest reliability and the least time elapsed after shot number one.

Of course this means short range work only, otherwise there is no need for such a fast followup shot to save your bacon if shot number one fails to stop the fight.

In any situation other than at spitting distance, one is better off with a scoped bolt action... unless one is just horny for doubles.

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Rifles And Bullets r us: RAB

John S,
I understand if you prefer a Bolt gun to a double! It's all right! I like all of my Mauser action rifles from 22-250 to 375 H&H.
Wouldn't take a pot of gold for any of them!
Personal choice is a wonderful freedom! I suppose that is why so many PHs and African hunters before and now did and still do carry a double rifle when the situation calls for them.

R.A. Berry
There is no need what so ever to feel bad about not carrying a double rifle! You should carry what you want to carry afield!
I don't remember anyone saying that you should feel inferior because you don't carry a double rifle? You are absolutely correct when you say there are a bunch of things a bolt action can do better than a double!

As I have stated above and before, There is no good reason to own or shoot a double rifle! I guess that is why I do?

I don't always carry a double rifle. I just like to shoot mine as much as I can, when the situation arises!
I think it is a good thing to learn about double rifles.
That way when a droplock/sidelock/boxlock, with reenforced fences, chopper lump/monoblock/dovetail block barrles, dollshead/third fastner/Greener cross bolt, ejector/nonejector, backaction/underlever, 1 Standing/2 folding/ pop-up night express sights, with a beautiful walnut stock chambered in something from the turn of the century ending in Nitro Express, you will have greater appreciation of your new toy!
Kinda like rediscovering a bolt action rifle in your collection marked byf '44.

Once again personal choice is a wonderful freedom!

Happy Thanksgiving to you all! We have so much to be thankful for again this year!

We few, we merry few, we band of brothers!

Rusty

I think Rusty said it all, if anyone here feels inferior because they don't shoot a double rifle, then it's because they have and inferiority complex, or perhaps penis envy but not by anything we double rifle users have said...There bolt guns cost as much as my double rifle cost me...

John,
I will state that If I held high on the top of a Buffalos back with my 450-400 at 125 yds the bullet would impact half way down..after all it has the trajectory of a 30-30...Double rifles are surly underated by you bolters on this forum and thats just not the case. Also reread my posts, I said I have a bolt action backup, mostly in case I see a B&C Kudu or Sable, but as I said I have used on Buff on one ocassion....

RA,
I prefer the scoped bolt rifle for Leopard because most of them are shot at night and iron sights are the pits in the dark, and less than optimum under lights...Also you are correct that velocity is a better killer on the light animals and the high strung animals...My favorite Leopard gun is a 7x57, 270, 300, 338 or something of that ilk.

What I'm saying is there is a place for everything and everything has its place. to argue otherwise is without cause.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Ray,
The term is "bore envy," as in two bores are better than one.

I see your point about the bolt action with a low power scope being best for leopard in low light conditions. And, the bolt gun delivers the appropriate leopard cartridges more tastefully. A side-by-side double in 270 Win. would be a bit uncouth.

I do have an over-under 338 Win. Mag. double (Ruger Redlabel conversion) just to assuage my bore envy a bit. I have thought of putting a Ruger quarter rib scope base on it but have decided against it.

A double rifle must be regulated with the scope installed from the get go, for it to shoot properly. Even I couldn't bring myself to use a double rifle with a scope, I have decided. Double rifles are perfect for what they do best with express sights.

So, I guess I am still suffering from bore envy. I am afraid I will never be satisfied until I have scratched that itch.

I am still recovering from the Botswana safari, money is tight, so I guess I will be itching for a while. My only consolation is that I have a lot of time to educate myself on doubles before I break the bank.

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Rifles And Bullets r us: RAB

RA,
The best case against a double rifle is you could go on a decent Safari for the cost of the rifle, and thats makes a bolt gun look pretty good in my books...

After all the trades settled and the books were tallied I think I have less than $0 dollars in my double...I'll keep it, because I couldn't replace it for that

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com