Dave,

I don't think I've lost the debate at all. In fact, I think many people are missing my point completely, and your post seems to suggest that you've also missed my point.

I admit I don't think the current donation scheme is fair (to say the least) and I'm sure that the majority of people in the industry would agree with me..........I'm equally sure that the vast majority of people who exhibit, would prefer to pay a fee that is costed on a simple sliding scale related to the location of the booth.....Certainly, of all the many people I know in the industry, I don't know of a single one that wouldn't prefer an alternative to the present situation. But that's not really my point.

My point is that the organisation must take in an immense amount of money from the (Africa based in this case) donations/auctions, yet they don't seem to publish those figures anywhere. At least, nowhere I've found, and although they claim to spend money in Africa on various projects, they don't seem to publish any figures of how much they spend on that either.

That to me, seems unfair and I tend to feel they're rather pulling the wool over a lot of people's eyes by not making that information public....... and nothing I've read here or elsewhere has convinced me otherwise.

Well Steve I am still looking for "hands". You have in fact lost the argument and I would not be suprised you have lost potential clients thru this whole mess.

I also think you and Saeed have lost the respect of many of the posters here, of course no one has to ask my opinion about the Bobbsey twins of AR.

The really funny part of this for me is I attend the Dallas show instead of the Reno show, but it has nothing to do with the cost of attending either show it is all about fellowship with respectable and responsible AR posters.

Cheers

DOJ

I fail to see how an absence of hands supports your argument. Surely, that supports my argument that no donator is happy with the present situation.

As to losing potential clients....... I don't think we need to worry about that at all. We're in the fortunate position where we can and do decline business if we feel the need, and have been in that position for many years.

Admittedly, we're not the largest safari company in the world, but we've been in the business many years and even in this present financial climate, we don't have to play the discounts game, nor do we have to attend conventions and make donations etc. That's more than good enough for me.

Steve,

I'll continue to post supportive information here as it becomes available. SCI are quite willing to share information, but they are an "organization" and they do not always respond as quickly as an individual might, or as quickly as one wishes.

It seems clear that a number of African outfitters, and outfitters and vendors from around the world have decided that participating in this convention is worth the investment to them in increased business both at the convention and afterwards. And some have donated in heroic amounts to obtain preference and prime display locations!

Also clear is the fact that SCI spends the vast majority of their income on many, many things besides themselves. [Unless you count supporting the members & chapters as spending on themselves.] It is apparent that they support hunting and conservation in numerous ways around the world [see above] and that the SCIF which is the organization that does the more tangible projects, is active in Africa and elsewhere.

The donors contributions are clearly used to support the industry, they do not spend it all on themselves [look at those meager executive salaries!] but they do spend it on what they have always purported to do, influencing, advocating and conservative activities.



To me it seems that if ANY of the SCI money comes back to Africa or anywhere else it is a good thing. And likely more than would have been donated there if not for them doing it. The idea that SCI needs to spend all the money it receives from African outfitters on African conservation projects is, well, silly! [That would be like requiring you to spend all the money you receive from USA clients - in the USA!]

We may never convince you or Saeed that the SCI is a good thing, but it cannot be disputed that they are doing good work, as they have always intended, with the income they receive from the conventions and the members.

Les

Steve good for you I always enjoy seeing people and organizations being sucessful.

You ask for a show of hands for support for your position, isn't it interesting you claim sucess either way, sort of like the question I ask you before. When did you stop beating your wife?

Well I will be off to the Northwest and Natal this fall and enjoy my time there it is a good change of pace with good friends.

Cheers

Les,

I'm not suggesting and never have suggested that SCI are a completely bad thing....... just that I believe they could do so much more than they appear to do and that the donation scheme is grossly unfair to say the least.

Let's set the donation scheme aside for a moment simply because it's been talked to death a zillion times and no-one is gonna change anyone elses mind.

The way I see SCI, is that whatever else can be said of it, the organisation has an immense amount of money, talent and know how at it's disposal and although it does the lobbying thing (mostly) in the US etc, it could achieve soooo much more than it apparently does.

Instead, it spends it's time (apparently) witholding information from the general public about how much money it makes and what it does with it......... To me that's extremely questionable behaviour.

As for the chapters in other parts of the world, from my personal experience, many seem to be nothing more than a mutual back slapping society of chinless wonders that know bugger all and think they do and consequently do nothing more than talk bollocks and feed people disinformation.

Just think how much more SCI could achieve for hunting and hunters if their energies and monies were correctly directed.

DOJ

Like I said before, I think you need some serious psychiatric help.... esp if you think the fact that no-one in the business raised their hands to say they supported the current donation system helps your argument.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Well Steve I am still looking for "hands". You have in fact lost the argument and I would not be suprised you have lost potential clients thru this whole mess.

I also think you and Saeed have lost the respect of many of the posters here, of course no one has to ask my opinion about the Bobbsey twins of AR.

The really funny part of this for me is I attend the Dallas show instead of the Reno show, but it has nothing to do with the cost of attending either show it is all about fellowship with respectable and responsible AR posters.

Cheers

I am sure Steve can answer for himself.

But, as for me, I am not going to loose any sleep over any so called respect I might loose just because I have asked awkward questions of SCI.

And if you are talking about "inner circle" members, the lack of respect is mutual.

Saeed has pretty much expressed my own sentiments there. To address the issue myself, frankly, I'd rather risk losing a few clients than risk my integrity by making a statement that I believe not to be true just to kiss arse....... and that's probably one of the main reasons I don't have to play the discount game, attend the conventions or make donations.

Admittedly, SCI inner circle members don't exactly make up a large part of our clientel.

Saeed and Steve I guess it is best left that first I would not expect to be invited to your abode to break bread and secondly I won't loose any sleep over that fact.

Thus I enjoy the comaridary of AR posters at the Dallas show and the Pa get togeather, and if either of you would condesend to attend the show you are most welcome at the AR party. If you want to attend the Pa cookout I"ll even treat you to some Frogmore Stew.

Just a thought.

If this is the Africa hunting thread and the owner of the site is convinced that SCI is not about Africa hunting, why does he allow SCI threads here.

So many questions, so few answers.

Perhaps it's time for an SCI forum so the SCI bashers can have a place to bitch, moan and complain about not being given things on the proverbial silver platter.

Put this disruption where it belongs, off this forum.