Hello all,

this is my first post in this forums and I need some help in gathering information. I don't know if anyone here will be abble to help me, in fact I doubt it, but I don't know any other forums where I could ask for help. I hope I'm posting in the correct thread.

My name is Pedro and I'm portuguese. Basically, a few years ago I was told that a grand-grand-grand-father of mine (not sure if that is the correct way to say it in English, but he was my grandfather's grandfather on my mother's side), which I will refer to as "GGGF" from now on, had been a VERY rich elephant hunter.

His name was Lucas Marques and he had four kids. They were a poor family, pretty much like all my family was until my mother became an adult. According to my grandmother, my GGGF's wife was a very difficult person to live with (to say the least) and one day Lucas just left home and never returned (sounds like a soap opera). He went to the Belgian Congo, where he started hunting elephants for ivory (what else?). I'm not sure on the dates, but this must have been in the late decade or so of the XIX century or early XX century.

Later, some people who claimed to have met him there said that he was extremely rich and that he owned "all" the comerce shops on an entire street in some city. If this means Boma or Léopoldville (modern Kinshasa) I don't know, but I think it was in the later. Now, this may be an exageration, but still it's a fact that my GGGF had become an extremely wealthy man indeed. When one of his relatives married (I don't remember who exactely, I have to ask my grandmother next time I'm with her) he sent an amount of money that was enough, at the time, to buy an entire house. He also sent a cinema shooting camera (my father had it for some time and later gave it to some family on my mother's side; my mother is still pissed) which was pretty expensive at the time. He tried to get some of his sons, and later grandsons, to go live with him in the Belgian Congo, but his wife never let anyone go. He eventually died and his fortune went to the Belgian Congolese State since he had no nominated heir there (and things in those days, specially at the "end of the world", were quite different from now). Part of his money came to my family, and was enough to buy full furniture for an entire house. Supposedly, that was a small fragment of his total fortune.

So I find it somewhat strange that there is no mention of this man anywhere. Maybe it's the fact that most of the writings by far about the golden days of african hunting are writen from an English perspective and mostly deal with East Africa. There are some classic accounts of elephant hunting in the Congo region but they are far less numerous. Perhaps there are some Belgian accounts too but I don't know any. I find it strange still that such a successful hunter didn't get some quote or reference anywhere.

So I wrote this thread to see if anyone here who is a bit of a bookworm and a helpful soul could help me find any obscure reference about this man, my GGGF, in some book (perhaps "Legends of the African Frontier" by David Chandler or "Elephant Hunters: Man of Legend" by Tony Sanchez-Arino? Doubtful, but who knows?). Maybe someone has been, is, or will be in the former Belgian Congo region and could check for some info. Or maybe you know someone there who could check it. All I want is some info, no matter how obscure. I know it will be difficult to find something, but I can't give up yet. Perhaps there are other Forums out there you know of that could prove helpful? It's a pitty the Shakari Connection site doesn't have a forum, as it could prove very useful in this case.

Anyway, thank you for any help you can provide me, including counseling on where to search or ask.

Best regards,
Pedro

Pedro,

I'll check my copy of Legends this evening, if some one doesn't beat me to it before then. Interesting quest you've set off on. Good luck.

Dean

Thank you very much, Dean. I appreciate it. I doubt there will be a "full entry" in any book dedicated to him, but I'm hopeful there could be some obscure reference by someone somewhere.

Again, thank you very much.

Pedro

http://www.africahunting.com/h...y.php?cat=547&page=1


Pedro,

I checked Safari by Bartle Bull a classic book with extensive history of Africa and the hunting industry along with several old books given to me by an elderly friend and came up empty.

Check the attached link to the africanhunting website it has several vintage photos from the Belgian Congo. Good luck on your search.

Kathi,

thanks a lot for your trouble. It's very kind of you. I will check the link and see what I can find there.

Best wishes,
Pedro

I suspect your best source would be in the Portuguese hunting literature, and I would start your search there.

Just as there were many successful Boer elephant hunters of the past who are unknown to English-reading hunters today, it should be safe to say that your ancestor and many other Portuguese ivory hunters although well-known in their times were featured only in books in the Portuguese language.

Bill Quimby

Thanks, Bill. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any real portuguese "hunting literature". I know there are exploration related books from XIX century, but I'm not sure about hunting proper. Still i will try to see what comes up.

Anyway, thank you all for your help. You've all been very kind. Please feel free to post any advice you may think could be useful. I will try to post in other forums too and see if anything comes up.

Pedro

I would contact Tony Sanchez-Arino. He has quite a bit of information regarding some of the Spanish and possibly Portuguese hunters. You can contact him through Safari Press or pm me and I will send you his address.


Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by Pedro Pereira:
Thanks, Bill. Unfortunately I'm not aware of any real portuguese "hunting literature". I know there are exploration related books from XIX century, but I'm not sure about hunting proper. Still i will try to see what comes up.

Anyway, thank you all for your help. You've all been very kind. Please feel free to post any advice you may think could be useful. I will try to post in other forums too and see if anything comes up.

Pedro

You may want to look at Edward Foa's book. I believe he was Portugese and it is an excellent book. I read it a long time ago. It may have a reference.

quote:

Lucas Marques

Pedro,

No luck in Legends. However, there is a note in the foreword stating that Chandler had over 1,800 biographical sketches prepared and only about 1,200 went into the book. Perhaps Safari Press would have an idea about how to check the unpublished material.

Cheers,
Dean

Is Brian Herne still in the US? He may have some info he gathered for his fine book.

Good luck with your quest.

Dogcat, I believe Edouard Foa was french. On the other hand, he MAY have something on my GGGF, since it seems the time period is right and he travelled widely in Africa. I will have to try to check his books, they are hard to get it seems (and damn expensive).

Maki, thanks for checking the book.

Thank all of you for your help and encouragement, you've all been ace!

Pedro

It's a bit of a long shot but you might like to PM Bwana Mich who posts here and ask if he can put you in touch with Armando Cordoso who might be able to help you.

Steve, thanks for the info. I will try to contact him.

Pedro

I think maybe Steve means PH Orlando Cardoso (not Armando)?

if you care to PM me and I can give you his email adddress.

Another good guy to check with is PH Hugo Seia

Hum, acording to this link

http://www.shakariconnection.c...okolosh-safaris.html

his name in indeed Armando Cardoso, not Orlando. Unless there are two? :/

I'll PM you, thanks. I'll try to reach Hugo Seia too.

If he drives a Land Rover it has to be Armando

I admit I read this pretty fast. Maybe there is an Armando? I never heard of him. I only know Orlando Cardoso who is Professional Hunter in Camaroon & Tanzania. perhaps two different guys??

quote:

Originally posted by Pedro Pereira:

His name was Lucas Marques... one day Lucas just left home and never returned (sounds like a soap opera). He went to the Belgian Congo, where he started hunting elephants for ivory (what else?). I'm not sure on the dates, but this must have been in the late decade or so of the XIX century or early XX century.

Pedro,

There should be extensive archives of colonial records pertaining to the Belgian Congo in Brussels. However, accessing them would probably require fluency in French. The good news is that most educated people in Belgium are also fluent in English, so you would have a common language to communicate with your researchers.

If I were you, I would first get in contact with Harald Wolf at: mail@hataritimes.com

Harald is the editor of Hatari Times and has hunted extensively in most of the Central African countries, and has a big interest in the early history of safari hunting in that area. Also, he actually lives in Belgium and may be able to direct you to the government ministry, or other contacts, that could help you out. Please feel free to use my name and tell him that I sent you, as I think he would be the best man for the job. A story like this is the kind of thing that Harald would find intriguing, and perhaps interesting to write about.

However, you must do more work on your end by finding out exact dates, such as his birth and death dates. Also "the late decade or so of the XIX century or early XX century" is so vague that it would be hard for any researcher to work with. Try to narrow it down as much as possible if you can.

Also, get Lucas' full name if you can, because sometimes the records only use initials, so if you knew that his middle name was 'Jean', and you found an entry for 'L.J. Marques', then you would know it was your man.

Another good source of information would be the Portuguese Genealogical Society. There is no telling what information could jump out at you from that end. If nothing else, you will find his full name, exact birth date, and maybe his date of death.

Good luck with your quest.

TANZ-PH, there seems to be an Armando and an Orlando, both "Cardoso" and hunters. Thank you all for the contacts, I'll proceed to check them out.

Alan, thank you very much indeed for your information. It is perhaps my best shot at it. I will contact my parents (I live in another country) so that they can contact my grand-mother and extract as much information as possible to narrow down the search. Your information is very useful indeed. I'll contact Harald Wolf, he seems to be my best chance.

I'd like to again thank you all for the time and pacience you've given me regarding this issue. Much thanks indeed.

Best wishes for all,
Pedro

TANZ-PH

I think Orlando could well be the son or nephew but the guy I have in mind is definitely Armando.

A good reference work on the establishment of the Belgian Congo, initially christened the Congo Free State, actually the murderous King Leopold's personal fiefdom, is King Leopold's
Ghost by Adam Hochschild.

How cool is this thread?! Who doesn't love a mystery!

One of the best I have read on AR in awhile. Good luck, Pedro, with your very interesting search. I hope you are able to find lots of facts and maybe some enticing African hunting fiction.

Well done to all who have provided help too! You guys and girl are awesome.

I wish I could help you, I am fascinated. Please post whatever you find.

I've sent a copy of your original post to Adelino Serras-Pires, who grew up in Mozambique but worked in the hunting industry all over Africa to see if he has heard of your ancestor, or failing that, knows where you might find information.

Bill Quimby

Thank you all for your kind words. I really didn't expect such a level of cooperation and interest on your part. You guys and girls have far surpassed my expectations. Thank you all again.

Feel free to show my post to people you know who you think may be abble to help. And yes, I will post anything at all that I can find regarding my quest as long as you are interested. I will now send a few mails to some contacts I gathered here thanks to you and we'll see what (if anything) comes up.

Thank you all.

Pedro

It might also be worth trying to get in contact with Christian LeNoel, author of "On Target: History and Hunting in Central Africa". I will check my copy tonight to see if Lucas Marques is mentioned https://www.trophyroombooks.com/trbpubs/ontarget.htm

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:
It might also be worth trying to get in contact with Christian LeNoel, author of "On Target: History and Hunting in Central Africa". I will check my copy tonight to see if Lucas Marques is mentioned https://www.trophyroombooks.com/trbpubs/ontarget.htm

Thank you!

Pedro

Was Marques his mother's or his father's name? The reason I ask is that I have a couple of books on the early exploration of the Congo River Basin, and could find no Marques listed in the indexes.

That does not mean he can't be found in those books. Not all editors of books in the English language, especially a copyeditor creating an index, will know that in Portuguese (unlike the Spanish-speaking world) the father's surname is listed last.

If his name was Lucas Silva-Marques, for example, it could be listed under "S" instead of "M.

Bill Quimby

Bill, I don't know the names of his parents. My parents are going to visit my grandmother next week so I may have some new info, but it should be noticed that my gradnmother was the wife of my grandfather who was the grandson of my GGGF. So she isn't directly related to Lucas and she doesn't know much of that information. However, I'm hopeful I will be abble to get new info next week.

For now, it seems that his name was just Lucas Marques. Another curious aspect is that although the naming proceedure you describe is correct, there was a certain degree of freedom in name giving. My grandfather, for example, didn't have the last name of his father, instead he had the last name of his godfather as a token of gratitute (for what I don't remember). So it is possible that Marques wasn't even the last name of the father of my GGGF, although I think it probably was.

Anyway, next week I will (hopefully) have more relevant information.

Thank you,
Pedro

Pedro,

This is probably a long shot but have you tried a search on Google books?

Another (very) long shot might be to post pics of the old chap if you have any? - It just might ring a bell with someone.

Did a search on Googlebooks. I have not searched exaustively but for now nothing turned up. I'll try again later.

Unfortunately there are no remaining photos of him. At least not on my grandfather's side of the family (I believe my GGGmother burned quite a few of those lol). Maybe there are some "lost photos" around in possession of very distant relatives, but that's as good as lost.

Pedro

Pedro, good luck on your search. If anyone runs across President Obama's ancestors please post that info as well

quote:

Originally posted by 2kuduhunter:
Pedro, good luck on your search. If anyone runs across President Obama's ancestors please post that info as well

Thank you!
Pedro

quote:

If anyone runs across President Obama's ancestors please post that info as well

You can pick up his birth certificate in Nairobi.

Sorry Pedro!!!

quote:

Sorry Pedro!!!

No worries!

Pedro, I have tried to contact Jorge Alves de Lima. He hunted a great deal in the Belgian Congo in the late forties and early fifties.
He has a couple recent books published and sent me a copy but I cant see your ggf name on it.
He now leaves in brasil and I will try to cal him and ask about it. Hope he can remember it as he is quite old now...
best, Dante

Dante, that's really very kind of you. Thank you!

quote:

If I were you, I would first get in contact with Harald Wolf at: mail@hataritimes.com

Alan, I didn't get any answer yet from Haral Wolf. I'll wait another week or so before sending another one.

Thank you all for your support and kindness.

Pedro

quote:

Originally posted by Pedro Pereira:
Dante, that's really very kind of you. Thank you!

quote:

If I were you, I would first get in contact with Harald Wolf at: mail@hataritimes.com

Alan, I didn't get any answer yet from Haral Wolf. I'll wait another week or so before sending another one.

Thank you all for your support and kindness.

Pedro

My information may be incorrect, but I believe Harold only answers emails from Hatari Times subscribers.

Maybe you can forward your email to a subscriber and they can forward it to him. I would be happy to do it for you.

Pedro,

Yes, Jason is right. Harald might have well deleted the email since you are not a subscriber; he has a policy not to respond to questions from non-subscribers, or it could be, with all of his current health problems, he has been unable to respond.

I will forward this on to him, and follow it up with a phone call. I need to talk to him and catch up on his current status. He has had a really rough time of it in the past year.

I miss his writings about hunting more than any other living author, and hope that a new copy of Hatari Times will one day appear in the mail.


Jason, please contact Harald as well. Between the two of us, we might be able to persuade him to help.