CZ?
The question is at the heart of investigations by Congress and federal agencies into whether an American gun manufacturer is entangled in the shadowy world of arms smuggling and wildlife poaching.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/1...uth-africa-czub.html

I am sure you will find out when the US government figure out how guns from the USA move to Mexico and Canada. Plus how drugs and Money move freely across nations borders undetected all the time.

Dumbest article I have read in a long time.

Just anti gun/hunting propaganda.

There is a thread of misunderstanding about what the word “makes” means in this article. Both CZ and triple river can claim they “make” the rifles in their respective countries. The writer clearly wants there to be a supplier in the US illegally shipping rifles to South Africa to poach rhino.

Another question: why the hell would poachers leave rifles? Given that many poachers have to cobble together crap, you’d think when they got their hands on a decent rifle (with ammo?) thee keep the damn things...dunno..

“ . . . hundreds of CZ rifles recovered at poaching sites.”

I’m not an expert on the current state of commercial poaching in Mozambique, but that assertion is ridiculous!

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
Dumbest article I have read in a long time.

Just anti gun/hunting propaganda.

Exactly!

Instead of trying to find and punish the criminals, they are trying to find a scapegoat to Dover attention!

What an utterly stupid article!

What's the chance these were among the bunch
oblama sent over?

George

Insurgents during the Rhodesian bush war were armed with all manner of hardware, including a lot of Western Bloc stuff, like Thompson submachineguns. More interesting was the ammo - the US steel-cased .45ACP. I still have some of it I bought from the police back in the day and it still works. How did they get it? Governments weren't necessarily involved.

This article focuses on Mozambique, but the common denominator will be South Africa. CZ-USA and CZ-Europe can sell anything they like to licensed and approved South African dealers. So these guns can be had from the high-street shops, it's as simple as that.

Living in Zimbabwe, I can't buy a CZ P-10 (if I wanted one), but I can buy it in RSA and export it to Zim. South Africa doesn't have a customs bond for arms and ammunition, so I have to pay two sets of duties, that's all.

Law enforcement can EASILY trace the serial numbers back to find the origin of the firearms (even obliterated serial numbers can usually be raised) and it won't be from CZ to some poaching syndicate.

This is a non-story.

I note the date on that story is 25 December 2018 but the story itself is much older than that & there was a TV documentary made about it (at a guess) about a year or possibly more ago & if what was reported is true then CZ staff and/or dealers do appear to be involved.

IIRC, there were apparent links to both the USA & Tanzania.

I can't remember which TV programme it was but perhaps Carte Blanche in SA?

Blame the rifles again!

I have never heard of any rifle poaching anything!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I note the date on that story is 25 December 2018 but the story itself is much older than that & there was a TV documentary made about it (at a guess) about a year or possibly more ago & if what was reported is true then CZ staff and/or dealers do appear to be involved.

IIRC, there were apparent links to both the USA & Tanzania.

I can't remember which TV programme it was but perhaps Carte Blanche in SA?

Yes there was a investigation into it by a SA TV show called Carte Blanche, im sure if you google it you will find it, very informative. A prominent SA businessman living in Moz is implicated as this same person also ran a hunting Outfit next to Kruger on the Moz side.

Eric Holder, "Fast and Furious" gun walking.

Well, it’s interesting in that I had thought that in the US, that the importer was responsible for putting their markings on the weapon.

It looks like the factory can do it as well.

Kind of odd that CZ would put US import markings on more guns than had been ordered. (It’s extra work that didn’t need to be done...an extra cost)

I’m hardly anti gun. I find this somewhat indicative of someone in that supply chain is deliberately messing with the system, and probably for no good reason.

The stuff about 100’s of guns being left around poaching sites sounds like fake news or deliberate media spin/incompetence, that I agree with.

I'm with Baxter. Who the hell leaves their gun behind unless they have to? Boom, that was easy, let's leave these guns and get the hell out of here!

It’ll be us hunters in the end blamed for leaving guns after the hunts, therefore no more taking guns abroad and etc...
Stop hunters etc...
Couldn’t write the script better...

Google something like 'carte blanche cz rifle smuggling' & you'll find plenty of info

Kinda seems pretty ludicrous. If anything you would think poachers would want M4s or AK47s.

My white taxi driver in Johannesberg was asking me to leave behind weapons. I'm guessing because they think they will need them in the near future and it wasn't for poaching

quote:

Originally posted by zzz:
CZ?
The question is at the heart of investigations by Congress and federal agencies into whether an American gun manufacturer is entangled in the shadowy world of arms smuggling and wildlife poaching.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/1...uth-africa-czub.html

How Did Rifles With an American Stamp End Up in the Hands of African Poachers?

The same way any criminal gets a gun made anyplace! They are usually stolen!

……………………………………………………..

from article-
"CZ executives said a limited number of the Safari Classics are made specifically for the American market and stamped with the Kansas branding. But since CZ-USA was not able to place orders for all the rifles that the parent company makes for the American market, Mr. Kallus said, some of the weapons were instead sold to customers elsewhere in the world, including in Mozambique."



NYTimes prints an article to place blame on an American gun manufacturer and then quotes the European Manufacturer on the specifics, clearing the manufacturer and putting responsibility squarely on an entity in Mozambique.

NYTimes has gone off the rails.

If poachers are indeed abandoning rifles at kill sites that means someone is supplying the rifles to them free of charge, my guess would be Chinese operators or Mozambique government officials. Would not be surprising if those rifles were intentionally left to spread blame to American organizations by the poaching syndicate. False flag operation so to speak.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
I note the date on that story is 25 December 2018 but the story itself is much older than that & there was a TV documentary made about it (at a guess) about a year or possibly more ago & if what was reported is true then CZ staff and/or dealers do appear to be involved.

IIRC, there were apparent links to both the USA & Tanzania.

I can't remember which TV programme it was but perhaps Carte Blanche in SA?

Interesting addemdum at end of article-
"A version of this article appears in print on Dec. 25, 2018, on Page A10 of the New York edition with the headline: When American Rifles End Up in the Hands Of Poachers in Africa. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe"

Note the original article title. "When American Rifles End Up in the Hands Of Poachers" instead of "How Did Rifles With an American Stamp End Up in the Hands of African Poachers?"
The NYTimes propoganda machine in full operation.

Modern media is basically should be called SENSATIONAL MEDIA!

Maybe one CZ-USA rifle was found that was stolen from a hunter, but now it’s a conspiracy. Fake news.

The figure of "hundreds" is media hype.

As far as poachers not leaving guns behind, that's First World thinking. Poaching isn't a vocation and these people are not professionals. In a lot of cases the weapon systems are military, but in the case of sporting rifles, their handlers provide a firearm, which they use. The next time, their handlers will provide another one. An average pair of rhino horns is probably worth $300,000. How much is a CZ worth? Remember that the rifle is a piece of forensic evidence.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff SN:
I'm with Baxter. Who the hell leaves their gun behind unless they have to? Boom, that was easy, let's leave these guns and get the hell out of here!

As long as I can remember this exhibit has been part of the Elephant Hall ( Museum ) at Letaba in the KNP.

It is a poachers rifle and his shoes with the tuskes of a poached elephant.

The rifle is worn and rusted, the rear sight is missing and the barrel has a barrel band around it made of a hose clamp .

Closer inspection identifies the rifle as a Winchester model 70.

One can but wonder where this rifle came from , Mozambique before the revolution ? I say this because many of the poachers are from Mozambique.

oddly the shop most of the rifles come from was also in Mozambique.
I also find it weird that they are finding top grade rifles I as normal working American can't afford just laying around in the African countryside.

the other thing I found amusing about the lying bullshitartist article was the crystal clear 10 or so pictures shown but not a single one of them had a rifle in it except some POS [no clue who made it rifle] on the computer, and the FAL the one dude was carrying.

where are all these dropped rifles?

quote:

Originally posted by ijl:
The figure of "hundreds" is media hype.

As far as poachers not leaving guns behind, that's First World thinking. Poaching isn't a vocation and these people are not professionals. In a lot of cases the weapon systems are military, but in the case of sporting rifles, their handlers provide a firearm, which they use. The next time, their handlers will provide another one. An average pair of rhino horns is probably worth $300,000. How much is a CZ worth? Remember that the rifle is a piece of forensic evidence.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff SN:
I'm with Baxter. Who the hell leaves their gun behind unless they have to? Boom, that was easy, let's leave these guns and get the hell out of here!

My thinking wasn’t a “first world” thing in the sense of worrying about what a CZs monetary value was. Quite the opposite... given what is generally shown as examples of a poachers rifle ( see above), it would seem they would keep the rifles purely from a practicality point of view. If modern sporting rifles are found as often as the article wants us to think, it seems there’s been a disconnect along the way of not showing them as often as the junk we typically do see.

How many US hunters rifles are stolen a year in Africa, or out of the US?

What rifles are the game departments using now?

How is a game ranger going to make ends meet? Selling meat, ivory or skins?

Repent ! The end is near!

Kathi Lynn Austin's documentary 'Follow the guns' is fascinating

https://www.conflictawareness....of-kathi-lynn-austin

quote:

Originally posted by kayaker:
Kathi Lynn Austin's documentary 'Follow the guns' is fascinating

https://www.conflictawareness....of-kathi-lynn-austin

Another stupid, emotional article blaming the GUN!

When has a GUN committed any crime??

If they put just a fraction of their efforts to blame the GUN on actually stopping criminals by punishing them, we would all be winners.

We are not going to win when we have utterly stupid, emotional idiots publishing such rubbish!

Understood, and point taken.

You get both types of rifles; there are guys out there with 1850s Tower muskets,and guys running around with heavies - mostly .375s - and it's the latter who are the biggest problem because they're the ones tied to the cartels, and that's where they get their weapons. I have a number of photos on file of both types, and the guys who wield them are markedly different.

Another characteristic of the more modern rifles is that they're usually suppressed. The suppressor won't mask the sound, of course, but it will mask the direction the shot came from pretty well. So the implication is that not only do these poachers have access to the right tools for the job, but machining facilities and the like.

This is the big time.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by ijl:
The figure of "hundreds" is media hype.

As far as poachers not leaving guns behind, that's First World thinking. Poaching isn't a vocation and these people are not professionals. In a lot of cases the weapon systems are military, but in the case of sporting rifles, their handlers provide a firearm, which they use. The next time, their handlers will provide another one. An average pair of rhino horns is probably worth $300,000. How much is a CZ worth? Remember that the rifle is a piece of forensic evidence.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff SN:
I'm with Baxter. Who the hell leaves their gun behind unless they have to? Boom, that was easy, let's leave these guns and get the hell out of here!

My thinking wasn’t a “first world” thing in the sense of worrying about what a CZs monetary value was. Quite the opposite... given what is generally shown as examples of a poachers rifle ( see above), it would seem they would keep the rifles purely from a practicality point of view. If modern sporting rifles are found as often as the article wants us to think, it seems there’s been a disconnect along the way of not showing them as often as the junk we typically do see.

quote:

Originally posted by ijl:
Understood, and point taken.

You get both types of rifles; there are guys out there with 1850s Tower muskets,and guys running around with heavies - mostly .375s - and it's the latter who are the biggest problem because they're the ones tied to the cartels, and that's where they get their weapons. I have a number of photos on file of both types, and the guys who wield them are markedly different.

Another characteristic of the more modern rifles is that they're usually suppressed. The suppressor won't mask the sound, of course, but it will mask the direction the shot came from pretty well. So the implication is that not only do these poachers have access to the right tools for the job, but machining facilities and the like.

This is the big time.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by ijl:
The figure of "hundreds" is media hype.

As far as poachers not leaving guns behind, that's First World thinking. Poaching isn't a vocation and these people are not professionals. In a lot of cases the weapon systems are military, but in the case of sporting rifles, their handlers provide a firearm, which they use. The next time, their handlers will provide another one. An average pair of rhino horns is probably worth $300,000. How much is a CZ worth? Remember that the rifle is a piece of forensic evidence.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff SN:
I'm with Baxter. Who the hell leaves their gun behind unless they have to? Boom, that was easy, let's leave these guns and get the hell out of here!

My thinking wasn’t a “first world” thing in the sense of worrying about what a CZs monetary value was. Quite the opposite... given what is generally shown as examples of a poachers rifle ( see above), it would seem they would keep the rifles purely from a practicality point of view. If modern sporting rifles are found as often as the article wants us to think, it seems there’s been a disconnect along the way of not showing them as often as the junk we typically do see.

Really interesting. I'll admit I typically understood the ivory/poaching game as one where the the 'cartels' were playing on the poachers' poverty and empty stomachs, offering them money for any goods they could procure via their own means. Not necessarily funding the poachers with weapons or any other accessories in an operational sense. Holy hell...what a mess.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by kayaker:
Kathi Lynn Austin's documentary 'Follow the guns' is fascinating

https://www.conflictawareness....of-kathi-lynn-austin

Another stupid, emotional article blaming the GUN!

When has a GUN committed any crime??

If they put just a fraction of their efforts to blame the GUN on actually stopping criminals by punishing them, we would all be winners.

We are not going to win when we have utterly stupid, emotional idiots publishing such rubbish!

Did you watch the documentary?? It doesn't sound like it...She doesn't blame guns, its about tracking down who supplies guns to poachers.

quote:

Originally posted by kayaker:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by kayaker:
Kathi Lynn Austin's documentary 'Follow the guns' is fascinating

https://www.conflictawareness....of-kathi-lynn-austin

Another stupid, emotional article blaming the GUN!

When has a GUN committed any crime??

If they put just a fraction of their efforts to blame the GUN on actually stopping criminals by punishing them, we would all be winners.

We are not going to win when we have utterly stupid, emotional idiots publishing such rubbish!

Did you watch the documentary?? It doesn't sound like it...She doesn't blame guns, its about tracking down who supplies guns to poachers.

Exactly!

She has absolutely no idea where the guns come from.

They are making this all up.

You want to stop poaching?

Punish the poachers, severely!

And get rid of government corruption.

Mr. Macdonald is nothing more than a shit-stirrer.

First and foremost he ought to know that the rugged, quasi indestructible CZ (BRNO) was and probably still is the most diffused make of service/hunting rifle in sub-Saharan Africa; widely deployed in 3 different calibers (30.06. .375 & .458) by the Wildlife Depts.

In close second, I have yet to come across abandoned firearms next to a poached carcass of which I have come across many, some so fresh that the blood was still oozing but damn it, I never had the privilege of finding an abandoned weapon; lots of other tools of the trade but never a firearm.

quote:

Originally posted by kayaker

Did you watch the documentary?? It doesn't sound like it...She doesn't blame guns, its about tracking down who supplies guns to poachers.

Kayaker, Your comment to Saeed made me go back for another look.Imho I though the article was a bit disjointed and therefore a pita to follow. Might just be my method of retrieval of course.
I agree with you and found this part (Time to crime) of the investigation interesting and focuses on the OP's title.
Although all poaching is a crime whether committed by old firearm junkers and ' the one for the pot'or brand new ones with bells on. This article rightly focuses on the latter concerning organised crime syndicates roll in decimating our wild animals.jc


Time-to-crime and Gun Trafficking
Time-to-crime is a widely used method of determining whether guns were trafficked. It is a measurement of the span of time that elapsed between the point at which a gun was first bought at a gun store and the point at which it was recovered by law enforcement.

24 June 2018
A gun with a short time-to-crime—anything less than two or three years—is a strong indication that the buyer intended to divert the weapon for criminal use.

time-to-crime

Time-to-crime was one of the many tools that the Conflict Awareness Project (CAP) relied upon to build evidence against the key players behind South Africa’s escalating rhino poaching crisis. CAP’s three-year-long investigation found that a highly organised criminal network funneled high-calibre hunting rifles from Europe to Mozambique, then distributed them among rhino poachers operating across the border in the Kruger National Park. These rifles became a game-changer, enabling the rhino syndicates to churn out more horn than at any time in recent memory.

Using various types of records, CAP was able to piece together the movements of dozens of these high-calibre rifles and found that their time-to-crime was often mere months. That is a remarkably short period. For context, compare it to the average time-to-crime of a gun recovered in the United States, which in 2016 was nearly 10 years.

Using sales records and the case numbers associated with recovered poaching rifles, CAP was able to approximate the time-to-crime of nearly 20 of the rifles purchased and found that they were usually recovered by law enforcement within a year. CAP estimated that one of the rifles was actually recovered within weeks of its first retail sale. This is evidence of illegal distribution of rifles to poachers.

time-to-crimeLaw enforcement needs to shift its focus away from the low-level rhino poachers operating on the ground and aggressively go after the upper echelons of the syndicates. CAP’s analysis demonstrates how law enforcement can use time-to-crime and a follow-the-guns methodology to unmask the ‘higher-ups’ who are aiding and abetting these wildlife crimes on a historic scale. Using these invaluable tools will help law enforcement stamp out the slaughter. But they need to start using them. If they fail, then all of Africa’s rhinos will soon go extinct.

Ban CZ guns and you will stop poaching!

What a great idea!


I made a TV program, therefore I am an expert!