Question:
You hear that 2350- 2400 fps is the magic velocity and nothing is to be gained from extra velocity. Lets take a real look at this. A 500 grain 458 bullet leaving the muzzle at 2350 fps has an impact velocity of 2142 fps at 75 yards, leaving the muzzle at 2400 fps gives the same bullet an impact velocity of 2189 fps at 75 yards bump the velocity to 2500 fps and the impact velocity is 2283 at 75 yards and the velocity of 2146 fps is carried out to 125 yards. The (fact) is mentioned that bullets vere off at velocities higher than 2400 fps. How many people on this forum praise the 375 with it's ninety plus year reputation and what is the velocity, 2550 fps? Bullet failure with todays premium bullets is rare and straight line penetration is as good at 2500 fps as at 2350. So how does this 100 fps get the bad rap. Is it used as an excuse for a missed shot or a bad shot, would any deflection be different at 2400 or 2350 fps. To hit something twice excactly the same way with the same bullet path through an animal is near impossible so this subject is open to a lot of interpretation IMHO. It's only when you hit the larger bores that the slightly higher velocity becomes an issue. If you were shooting a 375 or less you wouldn't think twice about 2700 or 2900 fps. With the solids available today bullet break up is almost a thing of the past. Is the velocity more in line with cartridge shootability? 470 Mbogo

Having never shot anything that could eat me this is an academic exercise.

I agree that shootability is almost all when it comes to any hunting, even the limited amount I have done.

With my .500 A-Square and the practice I have done, velocity up to 2250fps is fun. I can enjoy my practice and get a "kick" (no pun intended) out of what I am doing.

At 2300 the fun goes away and I have to concentrate on what I am doing. I may fire 10-15 rounds during practice about six times per year then I will fire 4-5 full on 2385-2420fps rounds. The last I view as a necessity, not as fun. This is my limit.

So I go with shootability as being the determining factor.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 470 Mbogo:
[B]Question:
"Bullet failure with todays premium bullets is rare and straight line penetration is as good at 2500 fps as at 2350. So how does this 100 fps get the bad rap".

470 Mobogo,
What you say is true but so is the obverse. The 2350 being as good as 2500 in regard to straight line penetration, which is the whole point. The "extra" 100 fps is poo-poo'd only from the perspective of being superfluous, offering little in the way of added terminal performance while most assuredly detracting from overall rifle shootability via increased blast and unnecessarily high levels of recoil.
It is addressed more often in regard to the large bore rifles simply because shooter limitations are at hand.

470,

100 FPS? Yes and no, is the correct response..

From 1900 to 2000 it makes a difference, frome 2000 to 2100 it makes a difference, but these figures only pertain to very big heavy bullets say 40 cal. and 400 grs up....

As to the 2300 to 2500 FPS, its of no value at all...just makes little difference. When you go beyond 2500 to 2600 your tampering with penitration, direct penitration, and bullet construction..

Thats the way I see it, there has to be a cut off point somewhere. I doubt that my opinnion can be changed much, as it sure took me a long time to reach that conclusion.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

An emperical answer to a theoretically posed question! Very good, Dr. Atkinson, and right in line with why my DGR classifications are set where they are. Of course in my case, it was just guesswork . Thank-you for the confirmation, it makes my argument easier.

This post is like grabbing a whole bunch of tigers by the tail because I greatly respect the opinions of those who take part here. There is also no way that I could hope to approach many of the individual and collective hunting experiences represented here. So here goes........

My first hand observation, backed up by the similar observations of numerous professionals, is that the faster you drive a flat nosed solid, the deeper it will go, the straighter it will go in the animal and the faster the animal will fall over. It seems not to matter what the caliber is, from .270 at 3500 fps to .500 at 2600 fps, the above is true. I emphasise, this does not hold true for round nose solids.

OK, I am ready for the fallout

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Gerard Schultz
GS Custom Bullets

Having very limited experience with dangerous game (except my wife) it was my impression from reading what velocity above 2500 fps or so has the biggest effect on dangerous game like leopard and lion...the feline physique reacting more to the higher velocity bullets ..especially if they are of the expanding type. Having seen several buff react to hits from a 300gr .375 at 2550 fps and a 400gr .416 at 2400 fps I don't think raising the velocity (witin reason) would make much of a difference. Something the size of an elephant I don't think would be affected by increased velocity with any reasonable size bullet than could be shot from the shoulder. This all assumes you are shooting at reasonable ranges (less than 100 yards). If you are fearless/reckless/stupid (pick the adjective) enough to shoot at dangerous game
much past this distance the extra "muzzle" velcoity might come in handy. Just my opinion and I spend a lot more time reading about hunting than I actually get to go hunting....would that it were otherwise but it isn't.

Gerard,
I doubt anyone here will oppose your position on this subject. You may very well be right. God willing, some of us will get to use them enough to formulate some first hand opinions! Forum members are most certainly aware that they are highly accurate and have a growing reputation for extraordinary penetration.

I certainly agree that certain animals react violently and are quickly subdued by high velocity and my call is that includes the cats and thoes animals that are very high stung, hot blooded, such as some antelope and whitetail deer....

The others like Buff and stuff (moose etc.) seem to ignore high velocity, and are imune to shock...

Now keep in mind that Gerard simply said that the faster you drive a fN solid the strighter it goes and he may very well be correct, I think he is and I will tell you I believe a FN solid kills much better than a round nose, at least thats observation with limited experience, using them. Mine were homemade, but man did they work...

This business of monolithics has gotten everything out of whack, and a new set of rules apply to them and like regular bullets some monolithics just may be better than others and according to my African friends GS may be a little better than the competitions..Also many of the new premiums are claimed to work better the faster you drive them. I know Mike Brady states his Northfork bullets do.

I know the GS solids are the very best in the modern world today.. I have yet to purchase the HP's from him, so I can't say...guess I'll just have to bite the bullet and try them and they are on order... I sure like the Northfork bullets...I will be shooting some buff with the GS, FN and the Northfork this year, but not at any great velocity..My 450-400 just won't churn up much of that...I'll crank up some hot Northforks and try them. Some of the folks going to Zambia will be furnished the Northforks for their Buffalo, thanks to Jim Brady and NorthFork Tech..A nice jester for HA and Accurate Loading.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nickudu:
Hi Nick,
The straight line penetration being as good at 2500 as at 2350 fps was refering more to the references that at 2500 fps bullets will take off and not penetrate in a straight line. I have never found this except when I did the wet newspaper test but all calibers from the 416 Rigby up did it.At 2500 fps they will definitely penetrate deeper. I don't think you'll notice a great deal of extra recoil with the 100 fps . Once you get to 2400 fps there's lots and with the same weight bullet at an extra 100 fps I don't find much difference. That could just be a personal thing but it's how I find it. Shooting the 500 A-Sqaure at 2400 fps with 600 grain bullets is another story no doubt. I've been real busy but I want to order up some of the GS custom flat nose solids and hope that they will goup with the Swift A-Frames.
Take care and best wishes. 470 Mbogo

470 Mobogo,
I understand. You are lightyears ahead of me in the testing of solids, as my experimentation is now quite dated and did not include the .458 Barnes Super Solids or any of the "GS" offerings at all.
I value your experimentation and that of "Don G", "Andy" and others very much, indeed, as I have always had to drive 3 hours+ to get where I had the freedom to make a lot of noise and play around with this sort of fun. Experimenters, who have proven themselves to be keen and objective observers and have thus gained a measure of confidence from the other big bore enthusiasts here, are very much appreciated. I'd like to thank you, Don G, Andy and all other similarly involved "Forumites" for sharing your hard earned and not inexpensive results.

Best ... Nick

[This message has been edited by Nickudu (edited 08-15-2001).]

Gentlemen:
This is somewhat of a loaded question. Most of this contervesy started around the .458 Win. when veloicties were way below the .2000fps mark. Not only did they not penetrate well, they tumbled very often on large bodied animals. I have a collection of such 45 caliber bullets in my possession.
One reason for the tumbling, is rotational stability. There are two ways to get this. Higher velocities for a faster twist. Using tyhe lott at 2400 fps (or any other at that veloicty) you not only get better stability but less tumbling effect. Or better results.
True, the higher you push a solid the better it will penetrate in a solid or even resistence. i.e. boards, or paper etc. Howwever, 2400 fps is not magic, but does give a minium veloicty where everything seems to work fine. It is also, about all you need to get adequate results on large game. So the question arises, why punish yourself with more recoil, if 2400-2500 is
o.k......There are times when shooting through boards with a space in between,that you do see more dispersion or bullets leaving the test medium. Ross Seyfried, uses a 1-10 twist in his 416 Rigby, and claims more stability and deeper penetration.
In summary, if you think you need more penetration than what 2400 fps will give you then it is there to be had.
One other consideration is to be looked at.
If you use solids with Meplats (flat noses) you will loose some penetration ability and may need to go to more velocity.
There is more, but my fingers are tired.
George

[QUOTE]Originally posted by George Hoffman:
Hi George. It's always nice to hear from you as your opinion has much merit and experience. Both Nick, Ray and RAB always shed a great amount on good insight into their posts as well. Gerard's post can be considered fact with this being his buisness at hand and having lots of feedback from the field. With all post considered it seems to come down to the shootability factor. If you can handle the recoil and shoot well then it is a benefit.
Thanks everyone for your input. 470 Mbogo

[This message has been edited by 470 Mbogo (edited 08-16-2001).]

I too would like to compliment all that Nick and 470 have praised so highly, I will have to exclude myself as that would be plumb tacky....but I will add Saeed to take my place and a host of others....

This is a great board and packs a world of knowledge even though we don't always agree, and thats good, otherwise it would be a sewing circle and only one of us wears a dress, that GUY from DUBAI....that has a ring to it.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com