Maybe this is a topic for the DR Forum, but I am more concerned with in the field performance with elephants and buffalo and other big nasties. So . . .

Assuming that the problems of the 458 Win Mag are a thing of the past . . . then what does the 470NE double rifle do that a 458WM double rifle cannot do?

With both rifles hurling a 500 grain bullet at +/- 2100 FPS, why will this rifle not kill an elephant just as dead as the same rifle in 470?

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100175496

Educate me.

1. gives an instant second shot without the delay from working the bolt.

2. Slightly larger frontal area .475 vs. .458 (yes I realise it is a TINY ammount)

Will, I think this one will come down to the old argument of Bolt vs Double rifles again. Both calibers will kill critters just as dead and just as fast as the other.

I'm a Double Gun kind of guy so I'd prefer the 470; or better yet, a 500NE. They'll both do the job though!

Ballistics wise, not much difference anymore. Double vs magazine rifle? Don't get me started. Let's just say both have devotees, all with very good reasons. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

The Win Mag is a Heym double! Look at the link.

The only issue I would have is it's a rimless round. I know some are ok with it but why risk it? Go with a flanged round.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
Maybe this is a topic for the DR Forum, but I am more concerned with in the field performance with elephants and buffalo and other big nasties. So . . .

Assuming that the problems of the 458 Win Mag are a thing of the past . . . then what does the 470NE do that the 458WM cannot do?

Work more reliably in a double rifle, and shooting a larger diameter solid!

quote:

With both rifles hurling a 500 grain bullet at +/- 2100 FPS, why will this rifle not kill an elephant just as dead as the same rifle in 470?

http://www.gunsinternational.c...cfm?gun_id=100175496

Educate me.

In the case of killing the elephant nothing, if it doesn't cause a problem before it gets to the elephant! Balisticly the only thing the 470NE has over the .458 is diameter, but assuming the extra diameter of the bullet is slightly better because both will be shooting solids on elephant, combined with the more reliable double rifle cartridge being a flanged case on the 470NE, My pick would be the 470NE! In fact, I would pick just about any flanged cartridge over any rimless/belted rimless cartridge in a double rifle used to hunt any dangerous game animal! The 458 Win Mag cartridge is the reason that rifle is selling for a cheaper price than it would if it were a 470NE, or even a 450NE 3 1/4"!

....................YOUR choice, however, is what you should buy!
...............................

Nice rifle. My understanding is that extraction/ejection is more difficult to accomplish in this action type with a rimless cartridge. Ever see a rimless shotgun shell?
That being said, I would think Heym has likely overcome the technical hurdle, but most double users would likely prefer rimmed cartridge. I think more of these guns were being made when traditional cartridges were harder to come by.

Nice rifle Will... the only difference I see is the price! I think a .470 would cost $2000 to $3000 more. The animal you are shooting with it will never know that he was shot with a .458 or a .470 methinks.

I think JPK? was the poster who shot quite a few elephant with his Marcel Thys .458... I don't recall he ever had a problem in the field.

Though I have shot both, I have hunted with neither. Nevertheless, it is difficult to imagine any significant difference in downrange performance between the two when using bullets of similar design and composition.

It must be remembered that the .458 was designed for use in a magazine rifle, it does not have a rim and it is designed to operate at very high pressures. The .470 was designed for use in a double rifle, it has a rim, and it operates at moderate pressures.

Maxumum pressure for .458 Win:
piezo CIP - 62,000psi
crusher SAAMI - 53.000psi
crusher CIP - 54,000psi

Maxumum pressure for .470 NE
piezo CIP - 39,000psi
crusher SAAMI - 35.000psi
crusher CIP - 35,000psi

The .458 is not an ideal cartridge for a double. If I had to choose between the two for a double rifle, I would choose the 470. If a .458 diameter bullet is desired, then .450 Nitro 3-1/4" is the better choice.

Maxumum pressure for .450 NE 3-1/4"
piezo CIP - 44,000psi
crusher SAAMI -
crusher CIP - 39,000psi

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:
Nice rifle. My understanding is that extraction/ejection is more difficult to accomplish in this action type with a rimless cartridge. Ever see a rimless shotgun shell?

OR.........Ever see a shotgun shell that produced 60,000 PSI chamber pressure?

quote:

That being said, I would think Heym has likely overcome the technical hurdle, but most double users would likely prefer rimmed cartridge. I think more of these guns were being made when traditional cartridges were harder to come by.

The drawbacks in relation to rimless, high pressure cartridges in a break top double rifle are not fixed be fine fitting! I would trust the Heym far more than many other doubles with the 458 Win Mag chambering, but I would trust any good double rifle chambered for a flanged cartridge far more than even the Heym chambered for a belted rimless 458 win mag cartride!

The key with this rifle is to have JJ re-chamber the rifle to 450NE 3 1/4", an make a pair of solid ejector shoes, problem solved!

Sorry Will, I didn't see the link originally. My comments would be the same as the others here. The rimmed cartridge adds to the reliability of the set up. Probably not as big a deal now days with a PH backing you up as opposed to hunting on your own from days of yore.

The 470 is more classical but that .458 looks nice. It would be an opportunity to get into a nice rifle for a few bucks less. Probably will sell for less on the other end of the deal as well, and for the same reason.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


The key with this rifle is to have JJ re-chamber the rifle to 450NE 3 1/4", an make a pair of solid ejector shoes, problem solved!

Now there is a great idea!

The key with this rifle is to have JJ re-chamber the rifle to 450NE 3 1/4", an make a pair of solid ejector shoes, problem solved![/QUOTE]

Perfect solution!

Will,

I have used both cartridges on elephant for both body and frontal head shots. I really can't say that I noticed any difference in performance between them. Theoretically, you should have a slight advantage in penetration to the .458 dia bullet and a slight advantage in knock down power to the larger diameter .475 bullet. Bullet placement is much more important than any theoretical performance advantage.

465H&H

Will, I've looked at that rifle, Russ Gould has had it listed. Nice wood. I wouldn't worry about 458 vs 470, rimmed vs rimless. I'm sure a Heym in 458 will get the job done with aplomb! :-)

I would want a low pressure, rimmed cartridge in a double. The suggestion of having JJ rechamber to .450 3 1/4" is an excellent one and is something that has been done hundreds of times in the past.

As for whether the difference in frontal diameter makes a difference between the .458 and .470, I for one believe that it does.

As far as I am concerned...there will be no difference in the performance on the game between the .458 Win Mag and the .470 NE. They are ballistic twins. 12/1000th's of an inch of frontal diameter is not going to make ANY difference in knock-down power ESP...if you load it with flat-point solids like NF's or CEB BBW #13's.

I do not know enough about doubles to comment on the rimmed/rimless debate. I bet Heym would not have made it if they were worried.

PM JPK...shot lots of ele with a double .458 WM.

If...you buy it...and you do decide you don't like the rimmless case...you can rechamber to a 450 No. 2 NE 3.5" for not that much money.

For that money I would rather get the Heym PH in 500 nitro and not have to ask the question.
The Chapuis is also a great contender.
to my mind 458 win mag does not belong in a Double and if I were going down the route of having it I would rather chamber for the Lott.
In a bolt gun the shorter stroke has an advantage for the win mag but other than that there simply are better alternatives for the same money

JPK, who has not posted in a while, used a .458 double to good success on a few elephants, if memory serves.

[I see ledvm posted this same info while I was fiddling around.]

If you search here and maybe at NitroExpress you should find some discussion of those who have done as suggested above and re-chambered to a Nitro round.

Will,

There is a Famars on page 4 or 5 like mine. Some of those Verny Caron's also are a great bang for the buck.

Mike

quote:

. . . then what does the 470NE double rifle do that a 458WM double rifle cannot do?

Blow a hole all the way through your wallet, and kill your budget DRT.

quote:

The key with this rifle is to have JJ re-chamber the rifle to 450NE 3 1/4", an make a pair of solid ejector shoes,

Why? There goes the value built into this price - might as well just buy a 470 88B and call it a day.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with any DR chambered in .458 provided it has been proven...I am sure that this Hyem is good to go. AND, I'll bet the seller will let you test fire it to make sure you are satisfied - THAT should be all you need.

Really is a nice looking rifle with above average wood for a Hyem.

JW

If it is a double then it should ideally be a rimmed case. With a rimless case there is a chance of failure - who knows when that might happen!

A double is just candy and if you want one, fine, but no need for one really.

And a 470 has a bigger K-O value than the 458. Nice looking rifle but for the same money could probably find a 470 sooner or later. Can't eat fancy wood and it won't kill elephants either!

quote:

And a 470 has a bigger K-O value than the 458. Nice looking rifle but for the same money could probably find a 470 sooner or later. Can't eat fancy wood and it won't kill elephants either!

Come-on Will, you know that "knock out" stuff is overrated! A hot .458 has plenty of KO power!

A double is just Candy!? Well, I happen to like candy!!!

Perhaps a little more pressure in the smaller case but If Heym aren't worried about it then why should you?
Also you will have to convince yourself that you will not have an extraction problem with the belted rimless case.

quote:

Come-on Will, you know that "knock out" stuff is overrated! A hot .458 has plenty of KO power!

I didn't say a 458 wasn't enough.

I had a Heym 375 H&H that ejected and otherwise worked just fine.

Would I buy and not convert to a rimmed cartridge?

Nope.

The answer is, that the 458 winny can not be a classic like the 470.

I'd do some research on the seller, who used to post in here, and maybe still does.

quote:

Originally posted by Hasher:
1. gives an instant second shot without the delay from working the bolt.

2. Slightly larger frontal area .475 vs. .458 (yes I realise it is a TINY ammount)

and
3. this means less penetration!
Cheers, Hans

Will- Why a double? From what I here you shoot that 416 pretty darn well.

quote:

Originally posted by SG Olds:
The answer is, that the 458 winny can not be a classic like the 470.

I agree with the classic part, but the practical reason is, no rimless or belted/ rimless, high pressure cartridge has any business being chambered in a double rifle that will be used for the hunting of dangerous game!End of story!
.....................................

quote:

End of story!

If that were only true.

Doubles are over-built, at leats modern ones, and have handled the high pressure stuff like 458 WM and 375 H&H, just fine.

But rimless cattridges (as John Wayne would say) are still a bad idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

End of story!

If that were only true.

Doubles are over-built, at leats modern ones, and have handled the high pressure stuff like 458 WM and 375 H&H, just fine.

But rimless cattridges (as John Wayne would say) are still a bad idea.

Will, I think a double rifle factory chambered for a high pressure cartridge is built to handle the pressure as far as the action stringth is concerned! However that is not the problem! Besides the case we are discussing being a belted rimless cartridge that requires an extractor system that is enherantly weak, and break prone, that weakness is exasorbated by the pressures, and basiclly straight sided case,that cause sticky cases as well!

I'm not one of those, like Ray, who think a break-top double rifle is too weak for high pressure cartridges. As long as the rifle was built for that cartridge, but the extraction system for rimless/belted case IS too weak, and problematic IMO!

What can a 470 double do that a 458 cannot? How about retaining its investment value.

I have actually killed an elephant and Cape buffalo with a .458 double rifle, and although in theory the low pressure rimmed (flanged) cartridge is to be preferred, I have never had any difficulty with mine.

My experience is that a straight case extracts easier than a tapered case. That was certainly the situation with that same double rifle when firing the .375 H&H cartridge out of the second set of barrels. It required a return trip to the factory to get that problem sorted out, although afterwards I experienced no more trouble with that cartridge either. In neither case did I have the least problem with the rimless extractor, although I carried a set of spares with me for both sets of barrels.

Personally, I would not hesitate to take on an elephant again with my .458 double rifle, although I would prefer a .500 NE.

A tapered case versus a Straight case.

I think it was something other than the case taper that was causing the problem.

Even with a tapered case, a long case after firing can be hard to extract if the brass has "flowed".

Tapered case seem to drop out quite easily on an extractor gun.

.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
My experience is that a straight case extracts easier than a tapered case. That was certainly the situation with that same double rifle when firing the .375 H&H cartridge out of the second set of barrels. It required a return trip to the factory to get that problem sorted out, although afterwards I experienced no more trouble with that cartridge either. .

With all due respect, xausa, your problem was not the case shape or the pressure but the maker’s cutting of the chamber improperly! That could have happened with any case shape!

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
A tapered case versus a Straight case.

I think it was something other than the case taper that was causing the problem.

Even with a tapered case, a long case after firing can be hard to extract if the brass has "flowed".

Tapered case seem to drop out quite easily on an extractor gun.

.

With a tapered case like the 375 H&H belted rimless, or flanged. The case has only to move .oo2 thousands of an inch to be completely free of the sides of the chamber walls! That is why H&H designed all those cases like the 300H&H Fl sup mag, and made all the ones to be used in double rifles flanged.

The straighter the case the more movement rearward is required to move the case before being completely free of the chamber walls.

Of course malfunctions, like flowing of brass, usually caused by over pressure, can happen to anything, but some are far more likely than others to malfunction! Once the metallic cartridges mover to strong brass, instead of coiled copper or brass, and the shapes flanged and were more tapered the extraction problems in the early smokeless cartridges went away. This wasn’t an accident, but a process of development!

This is something that will be fine till it isn’t fine! Right here is where I hear the old rag about “Well you have the PH for back-up if you have a problem with your rifle!” In my opinion, nobody should depend on someone else to drag you nuts out of the fire! Again IMO one should go into the field for dangerous game as if totally alone. Where is it written that the PH will not be the first one hit, leaving the client hunter to shoot something off him?

You may shoot 100 elephant with a 458 Win Mag double rifle and have zero trouble with it or any rimless, or belted/rimless cartridge, and then you may have it on the first one! Since a double rifle chambered for a flanged cartridge has less chance of that happening, and will kill elephant just as dead as a rimless cartridge, I simply do not see the point when we are discussing a rifles and hunting that costs in the thousands of dollars, why take the chance since it really costs little more to err on the side of caution!

Of course it is also not written that one must use one over the other, that still, as we speak, remains free choice! My choice is flanged cartridges in a double rifle, others may do as it suits them!