I don't believe what some of those cuckoo scientists tell me happened a 100 years ago, do you think I believe what they tell me happened 13,000 years ago!

Saeed, great last post I laughed so much I just spilled A bunch of hot coffee on my LAP, especially the undesirables and dog statement man that as funny...

I have hunted Cape buffalo (charged twice),
Australia's buffalo,
Argentina's buffalo(charged once)
and was damn near run over by a small herd of stampeding American buffalo (Bison)on Kodiak Island, Alaska.

The one thing that is absolutely certain is that American buffalo TASTE the best and whoever says different is a worse liar than Obama.

quote:

The one thing that is absolutely certain is that American buffalo TASTE the best and whoever says different is a worse liar than Obama.

Absolutely no argument on that point, except possibly that the bison I've ate were selected more for palatability than age and head-gear.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
studies seem to show the swamp water buffalo may have originated in China,...the river water buffalo from India.

African buff are not closely related to water buff.

As always - you wiki knowledge is staggering.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
According to Professor JH Alardyce, of Timbuktu University, Faculty of Species Diversity:


"...Every living thing in Australia was imported there.

From animals to humans.

Bloody hell, all one has to do is look at the map of the world and this will clearly be visible.

Long before Her Majesty decided to send the undesirables there, nature has been doing it.

In fact, what we call Australian buffalo now used to live in Asia, when Asia was part of Africa.

The cape buffalo ran them off to Australia.

The dingo is one of the most intelligent species of dogs.

They went to Australia to avoid being eaten by the Chinese!..."

Heck, I have known a few Brahma bulls that would charge you for just coming into their pasture. One sometimes pawed the ground and snorted at us while we were in the truck.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Its is my understanding that Australia has two types of water buffalo:
- the river variety [western Asia] curled horns
- the swamp variety [eastern Asia] swept-back horns.
most likely imported from Timor, Kisa and other Indonesian islands.

The Dingo[wild dog] may be a predator, but typically only in the first couples yrs of a buffalos life.
Just about all dingo attacks on cattle or water buffalo are toward the calves.


Australian Dingo.

New Guinea highland dog.

although referred to as native, the Dingo is thought to have been introduced to the Australian continent by Indonesian seafarers
a few thousand yrs ago.

Same dog can also be found in the Solomon Islands, just smaller than the Aussie Dingo. I do not know if they made there own way there or were carried by early traders from Indon/PNG

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
5 000 years ago
Dingo arrives in Australia.

Thats one theory.

current international studies of genetic evidence, suggests the Dingo arrived as much as 18,300 years ago.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
some do some don't--seems you don't know all you think you do

Of course some do and some don't,
I already stated earlier that the Dingo may have come by walking or over the sea.
Are you really that thick and slow???

...one more time for the dummies who don't have the power to deduce;

Experts have presented different theories....
even they themselves are not entirely sure if the Dingo walked or was brought by man,
to mainland Australia.

Ones things for sure, is that regardless of how many thousands of yrs the piddly little Dingo has been in Oz,
for the vast majority of that time - it never layed eyes on a cow.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
studies seem to show the swamp water buffalo may have originated in China,...the river water buffalo from India.

African buff are not closely related to water buff.

As always - you wiki knowledge is staggering.

iF your knowledge suggests different, then share it with the forum!



Boddington on Cape Buffalo vs Water buffalo. ...



The Cape buffalo of Africa is genus and species Syncerus caffer; and the water buffalo, native to Asia, is Bos bubalus. We call them both “buffalo” (as we do the American bison, which is yet another genus and species), which is confusing. The Cape buffalo is a signature African animal, but for some reason, many people refer to Cape buffalo as “water buffalo.” While this mistake is common and adds to the confusion, for totally unknown reasons I have never heard anyone refer to a water buffalo as a “Cape buffalo.”

As hunters, I think it’s important to understand that water buffalo and Cape buffalo are significantly different animals. In biological terms, they are not as close as white-tailed deer and mule deer (which do share the same genus), and thus might be considered as disparate as sheep and goats or even elk and mule deer. They do have similarities. Both are cloven-hoofed ungulates; both are primarily grazers.

African buffalo are notorious for being dangerous to hunt, but I don’t really think there’s much difference; unwounded, neither are particularly dangerous. Wounded, you have a problem. It’s important to be very careful when approaching any downed animal!

There are also significant differences. In appearance they are both big, black bovines—but even this is an oversimplification. There are numerous races of African buffalo, and the western varieties are usually shades of red and brown rather than black. Water buffalo, though predominantly black, often have pale foreleg markings and a white throat patch—which you will never see in African buffalo—and I have seen mature individuals that are brown and even tan.

The most numerous and widespread African buffalo, the southern or Cape buffalo, has horns that almost grow together in the center to form the distinctive “boss.” Water buffalo grow horns that are separated on the forehead…but the westernmost races of African buffalo also have separated horns, and rarely grow the distinctive boss. The horns of water buffalo may grow out into an incredibly wide spread, may grow upward in a gentle curve, or may curl around radically. Unlike the Cape buffalo, the water buffalo was domesticated many centuries ago, and have been moved around so much that it’s pretty hard to sort them out. There are obviously different gene pools; Australian water buffalo have horns that are almost triangular in cross-section, curving out and up. The water buffalo so widespread in Argentina and the few herds I’ve seen in the United States have horns that are more oval in cross section, and tend to curl around close to the skull.

The wide-horned Australian stock was almost certainly brought in from Indonesia, which lies just north of Australia, while I’m told the curl-horned stock came from India. In any case, at some point in the distant past there was probably more than one race of water buffalo, but they have been moved around for so long to plow fields and provide alternative meat and milk sources that nobody really tries to keep them separate. They are all “water buffalo”—but some look quite different from others. True wild populations still exist here and there, from India southeast to Vietnam and Indonesia, with the only current hunting opportunity I’m aware of in the Philippines. Australia has arguably the best water buffalo hunting today, a vast free-range population introduced in the 1830s and long since established across a huge expanse of the Northern Territories. In Argentina, water buffalo are hunted in both free-range and feral populations, and in the USA there are huntable herds in Texas and Florida, and perhaps elsewhere.

As mentioned, African buffalo also vary regionally in horn configuration, but African buffalo are hunted in Africa, period. I am not implying that they couldn’t be, but they were never domesticated, and with the exception of a few captive disease-free breeding programs, they are pretty much found and hunted on native range.

Despite the fact that both are animals we call “buffalo” with many shared characteristics, there are strong differences. African buffalo are extremely gregarious herd animals, with herds often running into the hundreds and I suppose, in bygone days, sometimes into the thousands. Water buffalo tend to roam in small family groups. In good country in Australia I’ve counted hundreds of buffalo on a single plain—but they were spread out over a vast area, in smaller groups here and there. Even where the population is extremely dense, I’ve never seen a herd larger than possibly twenty; family groups of less than ten seem much more common.

Both types love to wallow in mud, but the name “water buffalo” is apt. On rivers and in shallow bays I’ve seen water buffalo in shoulder-deep water, grazing on underwater plants with their heads entirely submerged, periodically coming up for air. Cape buffalo love marshy areas and can swim major rivers, but I’ve never seen them take it this far.

Although my Australian friends don’t like to hear this, I’ve messed with water buffalo on three continents and I find them considerably less wary than African buffalo. I’m not sure if this is natural (like American bison), or if it has something to do with eons of domestication. Both are possible, but I personally believe it’s because the majority of African buffalo still coexist with lions, and spend much of their lives on the run from the great cats. I have no experience with wild water buffalo that still coexist with tigers. Australian buffalo, for instance, have lived absent predators for a dozen bovine generations. They are more approachable than any African buffalo I’ve ever seen.

Note that the words I’ve used are “wary” and “approachable.” “Aggressive” is an altogether different matter. In general it doesn’t apply to either buffalo unless you hurt one of them. African buffalo are legendary for their ferocity—but a serious charge from an unwounded buffalo is a very rare event. In this year 2012 alone, three hunters that I know of have been killed by African buffalo…but all three buffalo were wounded. With modern communications and air evacuation, human death from buffalo is also rare, so this is a bad year.

However, a wounded buffalo is unquestionably dangerous, and if you wound one I think instincts take over and the situation is much the same between the two varieties. Some years back, American Jay Carlson, outfitting in the Philippines, was badly gored by a wounded water buffalo. He hunts in heavy jungle, which is somewhat unusual with water buffalo hunting today. Australian outfitter Greg Pennicott, hunting primarily floodplains and semi-open eucalyptus forest, has seen hundreds of water buffalo taken. Although he has seen dangerous situations, he maintains he has never seen a full-out charge. On the other hand, I’ve shot dozens of African buffalo, and I’ve never seen a full-out charge, either. It can happen with any large bovine, but I believe the type of cover may be a major influence on the danger level.
Water buffalo are considerably bigger; the largest African buffalo bulls rarely weigh more than 1,500 pounds, while a big water buffalo bull will weigh a ton. Both are incredibly strong. I’ve seen water buffalo taken easily with fairly light rifles but, once adrenaline is up, I’ve also seen them take multiple good hits from heavy calibers. Cape buffalo, of course, are notorious for being tough—but I don’t think there’s much difference there , except that the water buffalo, whether he’s as tough or not, is a whole lot bigger—and that does make a difference.
Fortunately, it’s not an “either-or” deal in our modern hunting world. The various races of African buffalo are hunted today in at least a dozen countries. Opportunities to hunt water buffalo are more scattered. Australia and Argentina are probably the best, but I am very much looking forward to hunting them in the Philippines next year. I like hunting buffalo, and the two varieties are radically different enough that I don’t have to decide which I like best.

Please don't get me started on this again!

Bubalis Bubalis is the domestic or feral water buffalo (of Asia, Australia, South America etc.)

Bubalis Arni is the WILD buffalo of Assam / India and SE Asia - a different species and much bigger & very aggressive. They kill game park staff and village grazers every year. This animal is a truly dangerous WILD animal.

Craig Boddington's summary is pretty good - and who can argue with someone with that much experience, on both continents anyhow? He tells it how he sees it.

He did get the scientific name wrong in the first sentence though. They are not a 'Bos' species by any measure - Bubalus bubalis!!

I am not going to make any direct comparisons because I havent killed a Cape buffalo yet - and a sample space of 'one' wouldn't be enough to develop an informed opinion anyhow. I think the wariness thing could be contentious though - seems it depends a lot where you hunt them it seems. I have had plenty of old Asiatic bulls I couldnt get my hands on because they didnt like the look of me.

I dont want to make comparisons anyway - hell, I want to hunt Cape buffalo myself and our buffalo industry here only exists (to my mind) as a spin-off to the (interest in) African buffalo hunting. Without 'buffalo hunters' we would be screwed and I take my hat off to every dedicated buff hunter - because they are a great animal to hunt and worthy of protection through sustainable hunting.

I guess Mr. Trax will get some first-hand experience himself one day.

I would think that the question is more about aggression when wounded. In all my years I have never had an unprovoked charge by buffalo. All incidents have stemmed from pushing wounded animals and the occurrence is very rare.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I would think that the question is more about aggression when wounded. In all my years I have never had an unprovoked charge by buffalo. All incidents have stemmed from pushing wounded animals and the occurrence is very rare.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
I would think that the question is more about aggression when wounded. In all my years I have never had an unprovoked charge by buffalo. All incidents have stemmed from pushing wounded animals and the occurrence is very rare.

I have had a few unwounded charges from Asiatic buffalo.... I have no reason to fluff it up. By the same token I have had a couple of domestic beef herd bulls try and kill me too.

I don't know from African or Australian buffalo.

But... The numbers about people killed by domestic cattle are something do understand.

Before we had artificial insemination of dairy cattle, most farms kept a bull. During that time farmers and Veterinarians were killed often enough that 20 people per year seems very unlikely.

Holstein bulls were flat out dangerous. Mostly the dangerous one were kept in stanchions in a barn. But, they had to be turned out with the cows. Any farm kid knew who among his neighbors had a nasty bull and knew what it looked like. Back then, kids walked when they wanted to go somewhere and taking a shortcut through a pasture when the bull was out could well mean running for your life and spending a long time up a tree. Like I said, I don't know from buffalo, but I damn sure know what a full out charge with intent to kill looks like from more than a couple of those Holsteins. They're smart and well and truly capable of plotting to get you. I doubt that they are as physically capable as buffalo, because they spend so much time restricted and virtually never are chased by something that wants to eat them.

They don't lack for nasty though, and they can still outrun people, at least the ones who aren't Olympic sprinters. Were they wild, and they had to live in the woods with the wolves after them all the time, and were they as common as deer, grouse hunting would be a lot more exciting with a 20 gauge and 7/8 ounce of #8s.

Genetic scientist are always revising their classifications of animals and I think they will eventually decide that the cape buff and water buff are very closely related unlike what Boddington says on that. They have just been separated by such a long time that they have each changed some to fit their environment. Take for instance Brahman cattle and English breed cattle. They are very different but breed readily to each other with totally fertile offspring. The American elk, the red stag deer and sika deer of Japan are all the same species just separated by the eons of time and environment. Scientists once believed that the cougar/mt. lion were just very large representitives of small cats. Now they have them in a classification all by themselves.

376 Steyr - the Sika deer of Japan, Java, Korea etc is a totally different species.

Yes the Elk & the Red stag are one species with several sub species around the world.

Nakihunter, I have heard that in England the sika and red stag are inter-breeding with each other where they are on the same property.