the barrel cylinder gap would be a huge problem on a rifle of this type with high performance cartridges.

Why not get a Browning Gold Automatic 3.5" 12 ga. slug gun?

Why not learn to shoot a pistol? Are they not legal where you hunt?

Why do you need to shoot 6 shots so fast, why not place the bullet correctly the first time? You said you will be hunting for meat, right?

For the person who asked about 454 pressures, they ussually run up to 65,000 psi. which is more than a 30-06 I believe.

David

I'm a specialist wildlife safari tour guide in the Limpopo Province in South Africa and I usually take foreign tourists for bush walks in big five area. I'm also a dedicated sport hunter.

My game is mostly impala, warthog and kudu. As I hunt for the meat I prefere slow bullets of adequate caliber. My area is rich in vegetation, with an average shooting distance below 100 yards.

I like to move slowly in the bush, taking my time, and shooting when the opportunity arise. Normally the animal will allow me two or three seconds only before running, so I need to be fast in action.

Very seldom I need a follow-up shot but, when needed, it must be quick, before the animal disappear in the bush.

I do most of my hunting with a CZ 9.3x62 and my standard hunting load is a 270 grain soft at 2.050 fps. In the magazine I normally carry 250 grains GS at 2.450 fps. In the area where I hunt there are leopards, lions, buffalos and elephants.

Normally I hunt alone, with a tracker carrying a small backpack containing water, food, the first aid kit and a very basic "survival" kit. If something goes wrong it may take some hours before receiving help, so I must rely mostly on myself to stay out of trouble.

I consider the 9.3x62 perfectly adequate for my kind of hunting but I'm starting to think that a revolving rifle of adequate caliber may work better for me, and a lot of other people in my conditions, for the following reasons:

1) In my gun the release of the safety catch is on the wrong side for fast use and it makes enough noise to alarm the prey when I'm close. As a consequence, I tend to walk with the safety off more than what I would like. With a revolving rifle I can safely walk with the hammer down, ready to fire double action, and still being able to cock silently the hammer by depressing the trigger at the same time, if there is enough time to do so.

2) In my area is almost impossible to have an absolute clear path to the prey. I have wounded animals because of the bullet being deflected by grass or twigs. Unfortunately the ideal bullet shapes for minimizing deflection are not very conductive of reliable feeding in a magazine rifle. This is not the case in a revolving rifle.

3) I do not hunt lions, buffalos and elephants and in many years on my job I've been never charged by a wild animal. Still I had some close shaves and I'm aware that the risk do exist, particularly when coming close to an unsuspecting animal that is resting. This risk is almost not existing when walking with clients, because they generally make enough noise, but when I'm alone, followed by the tracker few metres behind, I can move quite silently. The point is that, if one day I will have to shoot D/G it will be only to stop a charge and in this case I would like to trow all the lead that I can within the time frame at my disposal, presumibely of no much more than a couple of seconds. There is no way that any magazine rifle, semiautomatic included, can be fired as fast as a double action revolver or a revolving rifle.

4) Under stress it will be easier to achieve accuracy and speed if all what it is needed is to align the sights and pull the trigger, without removing the gun from the shoulder. A revolving rifle will be shooting sooner and faster than any magazine rifle and will hold three times the bullets of a double.

5) Provided that the cartridges are properly crimped a revolver is generally more reliable than a magazine rifle as feeding problems, sticky bolt etc are not an issue in a revolver. If you cannot stop a charge with six shots a fast reload is not going to help you at all.

6) Even a possible misfire it will not generally spell disaster because the following shot can be fired within a fraction of a second, with the sights still aligned.

7) It is an added bonus that a revolver will normally carry six rounds against the 4 or five of a magazine rifle (3 on Magnums calibers).

8) In my opinion, handoaded with the proper bullets, the 444 Marlin, the 45/70 Governement and the new 500 S&W have all the potential of stopping even an elephant charge within 30 or 40 yards range.

9) What I'm thinking at the moment is a short gun, with no more than 18" barrel, looking like a Ruger No 1 with a cylinder. It must have a solid frame, blind on the left side to protect the left arm from escaping gasses. It must be slightly muzzle heavy in order to control barrel raise and it must balance in front of the cylinder for easy one hand carrying. The weight must be adequate to control the recoil of the chosen caliber when shooting fast in double action mode.

Comments?

In my gearhead days of yesteryear, I learned something that's stayed with me all my life. It is an outlook that applies to anything... and it is this:

"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?"

Good luck with your project.

Russ

Russel,

To be totally honest, the cost of the project is at the moment my only concern!

During the American Civil War, Colt designed some revolving rifles and carbines for the Army and got a big contract. The War Department loved them. The troops on the ground hated them! In a revolving rifle you get the flash-around between the cylinder and the breech of the barrel that blows forward and turns you wrist into bistec fioretino. Unless I could get a guarantee from an artist of a gunsmith that he could prevent such an eventuality, I wouldn't touch that idea with a giraffe's neck!

I am sure you can get one of these new S&W 500's retrofitted with a stock similar to the old german luger set ups, if I am not mistaken the S&W may come out with a 12 or 15 version like they did with the 629, I also believe there are several custom revolver companies that produce 45-70 revolvers although I believe they are single action.

Look into lever actions in a large caliber.
Jeff

Or rebarrel a Remington 7600 pumpgun to 9.3x62 or 64.

I think you need to take a couple of aspirin and a long nap,and come to your sences...

The cost would certainly buy you a couple of 21 days Safaris and thats just the down payment, the results would be less than satisfactory...and thats if it could be done, and I doubt that it could, other than the therory that you can make anything if you got the finances...

Oldsarge,

One hundred and fifty years ago it was impossible to machine steel at today tolerances. If you check a modern revolver from a good manufacturer you will find a barrel/cylinder gap almost imperceptible. In any event I've been thinking to have the frame closed on the left side in order to provide extra strenght and to prevent escaping gasses to burn the left arm.

Jeff,

I have a lever action rifle but there is no way it can be shot as fast and reliably as a revolver or a revolving rifle.

http://www.magnumresearch.com/BFR.asp

While not exactly as you described, it is a lot in your hand. Never had much issue with single/double action myself. Always liked the single action. Can you legally redo the stock?

Heh, heh, heh, my first blush is to agree with Oldsarge and Ray. But, that would be a very interesting project if done on one of those .600 Nitro Express revolvers. You probably wouldn't need a motorcycle crash helmet to shoot it if it had a buttstock to shoulder and a decent forearm to hang onto. Unless you make the frame closed on the offhand side, you will need to wear the leather arm gaurd though. And how long until gas cutting erosion opened up the cylinder gap?



Naw, that is just too goofy. Somebody pulling our collective leg? This borders on trolling!



A .600 NE revolver:

http://www.hunt101.com/showphoto.php?photo=75499&thecat=500

Raamw,

If I will go for a revolving rifle I want a proper rifle stock fitted and that involves some serious alterations to the frame.

To have it done just for one gun it may be above my financial possibiliy, unless some revolver manufacturer decides that there is an unxploited market for big calibre revolving rifles, but I'm not planning to trade my trusted bolt action for something that will not fit me perfectly.

My objective is to have a big caliber gun that will allow me to fire five or six rounds faster than shooting grey wing partridges and accurate enough for close distance work.

Proper stock fitting and gun balance are an essential part of the project.

Oldsarge,

If I cannot succed with the revolving rifle idea, it is exactly what I'm going to do. It will be not as fast as a revolving action (I've been shooting Bianchi competitions when I was younger) but it will be a lot faster than a bolt action or a lever action.

The problem will be binding of the cylinder caused by a high pressure cartridge, I think. That is why most revolver ctgs are low pressure, and the few times that people have tried higher pressure ctgs (22Jet, 256 Win Mag come to mind), the cylinder bound up because the setback was too severe. Having said that, I don't know what the 454 Casull generates for pressure so maybe that problem has been solved.

Also, a revolver clicks as the trigger is pulled DA style, caused by the hand and the cylinder stop mechanism.

Finally, the weapon will be HEAVY. The cylinder will be the size of a dumpy beer can. But is will be almost solid steel!

Get a hammer double rifle. It can shoot really big blunt bullets, you can cock it silently, and you have two fast shots. All you need in 99.9% of cases.

The .454 Casull is a "high pressure cartridge" in a revolver, over 50,000 psi. Better metallurgy and bank vault construction and tolerances.

A pump action in 600 Nitro Express or 12 Guauge From Hell caliber would be interesting. Now I want one!

Chain-fire in the hole!!!

Ray,

If I want a safari I just need to walk out of town. A couple years back the lions eated a man in front of the supermarket (after hours) and for a week we had lions hidings in our gardens.

At nights we have hyaenas raiding the streets and eating our dogs. If you are patient enough you will see the hippos and the occasional elephant right in town.

For a local resident hunting here is reasonably cheap (and for an hunting broker is even cheaper) but I agree with you that whole project can be so expensive to become not feasible.

Still the topic is if a revolving rifle of adequate caliber may give some advantage over bolt actions, lever actions and pump actions rifles. On this point I really would like to have your opinion.

Because, if the revolving rifle can give some new advantage to field guides and bush hunters, from the technical point of view it may be produced at about the same price of a Freedom Arms revolver and some revolver manufacturer may decide to fill the gap.

At this stage I only want to find out if the idea is workable, keeping the costs as a separate issue.

Some people buy doubles that costs more than a 21 days safaris and still have money left to pay for the hunting, so the cost issue may be not so relevant after all.

Your input is appreciated.

8MMORMORE,

In South Africa the barrel is the part of the gun that is licensed. If I understand the law correctly, if a revolver is fitted with a longer barrel it will need a new licence and the new licence can be requested as a rifle, provided the stock is permanently fitted. Magnum Research is an innovative Company. Who knows, they may even decide that there is a market for a big calibre revolving rifle.

Actually the rifle concept is not as odd as the chamberings you chose. Many people have tried to get bottle necked cartridges to work in revolvers without much success. They tend to back up, and lock the cylinder! So, those streight cased cartridges make some sense, in that respect. However, if you want something better than the ones you have listed, I'd suggest the 405 Win.or even the 450 NE! Since you will have to build the rifle from scratch, the left side can be kept fully closed, to avoid enjury to your forearm, from the gasses escapeing from around the front of the cylinder. No matter how close you machine, these gasses will cut like a cutting torch, especially with high volume cartridges. Since the rifle has to be made,from scratch, the cylinder may be made as long as one wishes, so even the 458 LOTT could be used, but would not be too nice for Impala hunting, but the 405 would, and though not well suited to elephant stopping, it would be fine for cats, and in an emergency, a buffalo, with proper loads, and bullets!

An alternative would be one of those ugly bolt action double rifles being made in Germany. With it you get two shots before the bolt must be worked, then two more, and high intencity cartridges can be used in it! These things are very ugly, and very expensive, but would cost far less than the project you perpose, I'm thinking!

In my opinion the best thing you could do is obtain a little Merkel, or Chapuis S/S double rifle cahmbered for 9.3X74R, with auto ejectors, and get off with a more usable rifle, at a hell of a lot less cost! Stranger things have been done, however, so if you are comitted to this thing, please post pictures when it is finished! That is if you still have enough money left to have a computer!

RIP,

Lets have some fun! It is Saturday afternoon and this whole discussion is far more interesting that watching TV!

Still I believe that the idea it is feasible and, if someone had taken the trouble to make a revolver in 600 NE, with the same amount of money he could have made a revolving rifle in the same calibre, that is a far better proposition.

Big bore revolvers in 444 Marlin, 45/70, 454 Casull and 500 S&W have been around for some time and I believe that the troath erosion problems have been already satisfactory addressed.

In my opinion the frame must be closed on the off hand side.

Oldsarge,



If the frame is closed on the left side it will be no gas escaping from the left side of the gun.



In any case I've shot a revolver holding the barrel with the left arm just to have an idea.



You feel the heat of the escaping gasses but it is all happening so quckly that you are not actually burned.



With a properly designed stock the face of the shooter will be, on the blind side of the gun, at the same distance from the frame that from any rifle action.



If you must have a blown off primer it is better to have it in a revolver than in a bolt action rifle.

Russ Gould,

The SAAMI specification for the 45/70 are 28.000 CUP, for the 454 Casull 50.000 CUP and for the 458 W.M. 53.000 CUP.

Basically, the revolver that can handle the 454 Casull can handle a 458 WM, if you can handle the revolver!

I agree on the clicking of the mechanism. A good gunsmith can do a lot but it cannot completely eliminate this noise.

I do not think a revolving rifle need to be very heavy. A Magnum Research revolver in 45/70 with 7.5" barrel weight is about 4 lbs.

I think that for fast follow up shots a minimum weight of about 7.5 lbs it is needed in a revolving rifle.

The problem with a hammer double rifle is that will be very slow into action if you do not carry it with both hammers cocked and it is limited only to two shots.

The only time I had trouble with a pride of lions I was carying a double and I did not felt at all adequately protected.

Remember, when I'm in the bush there is no PH covering my back, so it is not unreasonable to be looking for some more fire power.

MacD37

Actually the 458 Lott is an exellent caliber for impala, if you use solids of the proper shape.

For all practical purpose a 45/70 with heavy solids will do the same job without excessive recoil.

I like the Chapuis and I like better the old Bernardelli O/U in 9.3x74 or 375 H&H but the whole idea is to have more than two shots at the same rate of fire of the double!

David,

I shot a revolver better than a rifle but there is no way that you can shoot fast and accurate a revolver in 454 Casull or 45/70. In a rifle the recoil and muzzle flip will be a lot more manageable.

No semiautomatic weapon is now allowed and apparently no revolver hunting in RSA.

For hunting a single shot rifle is good enough. If I think to fast shooting it only at the eventuality of having to stop a charging animal.

I've seen a lion charging and it is amazing fast. There is no time for precision shooting, just aim for the head and keep shooting, hoping to get the spine or a rib close to the spine.

The operating pressure of the 454 Casull is about 50.000 CUP, a lot less than 65.000 psi, that is the operating pressure of the 300 Weatherby Magnum.

The only safe way to avoid the gasses escaping from the barrel/cylinder gap is to have the left side of the frame without any opening.

It will solve the problem, will make the frame stronger and will look appropriate in a rifle.

1839 COLT PATERSON CARBINE
.525 cal 6 shot revolving cylinder smoothbore
Originally designed to give more firepower to mounted troops.

I imagine that a single action revolving rifle can be done for under $2000 US. $1000 for the revolver, $300 for a long barrel, and the rest to weld a tin can half on the left side of the frame, and to weld on a wire stock (like that on the Browning .22 LR semiauto carbine that is based on the Buckmark pistol).

A double action is a lot more work. You will have to remake the frame so the cylinder swings out to the right for loading, if the left side of the frame is to be solid. Or, you could make a break-action revolver like a 19th century Smith & Wesson.

You might be surprised how fast a man can shoot a single action revolver if he practices a little and is in a really big hurry.

I'd spend the money on a drilling if I were in your shoes. Buckshot hasn't been in continuous use for several centuries without reason.

Good hunting, with whatever you choose.

HI,


I can say that a lever action in a large round 50-110 or 50 AK would fit the bill for under 100 yards like you want.I understand you want a double action pull, that I do not have a clue .Only a semi-auto, which you said you do not want would be about the same.I have a custom lever in 50-110 and shoot a 525 grain at 2,200 fps,kicks like hell.I carry it with hammer down, easy to full cock, but you want a double action revolving rifle) "In my opinion, handoaded with the proper bullets, the 444 Marlin, the 45/70 Governement and the new 500 S&W have all the potential of stopping even an elephant charge within 30 or 40 yards".The only thing I could think of is to get a revolver in the above cal and have a custom stock made by a gunsmith make a stock for that revolver. I am sure it could be done, but I think you would be served just as well with bolt or lever,I've have seen some people shoot a bolt and lever faster than most people can shoot a revolver, I wish I was as good as them. Mr. Atkinson is right again,Kev

http://www.huntamerica.com/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=562691&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Somebody just made one.

Good hunting!

This is actually a pretty good concept, I have shot revolver in competition as well and agree with the advantages of the double action system. The problem is unless you can get a manufacturer onboard to produce this it is going to be very expensive. With the concept you have put forth the cylinder gap is a non-issue, although a light carbine will have a bit of recoil, it will probably feel like a Encore rifle in one of these calibers. I would buy one at a reasonable (sub $2000 US) price but can't see trying to make one. I have plenty of hair-brained ideas of my own in the fire!
Jason

mehulkamdar,

So the idea was feasible after all! Thank you very much for your kindness. You made my day!

Mehul: I looked at the link, and that is a fine looking little rifle.

Using the concept shown, I don't think it would be that hard to take a 45/70 revolver and convert it, but it would be a single action.

JD,
That is the problem, there are no existing solid frame double action revolvers. The double action feature is one of the great ideas with this concept. I guess you could maybe use a S&W 500, cut a loading gate in it, add an ejector rod and load by holding the hammer at half cock to turn the cylinder but that is not a great solution...
Jason

sharp54,

Probably the most practical solution is to use a S&W 500, keeping the caliber and the swing out cylinder.

My main concern is to mantain the recoil manageable for fast double action work and the 500 S&W is a good caliber in is own right.

If you were willing to except the swing out cylinder and no left hand shield (maybe wear long sleeves and a glove ) then I don't see why you couldn't do it with a S&W 500. If you can find a gunsmith to do it for a decent price let me know!
Jason

Andrea,
OK, on the serious side, It can be done but you would be limited to caliber..I think a 454 Casull or even a 45-70 is very doable inasmuch as they have allready done that in Single Action revolving pistols, so all that is required is the purchase of the SA pistol and an extension stock such as colt once produced, very easy to do, not overly expensive to add a notch for the stock to the pistol grip, and build a wood stock........

But is that enough gun for your intended purpose..I don't think it can be done at all for a reasonable price in a 9.3x62 or 30-06...

Well, Hell, if you're going to blow the wad on a new S&W .500 Magnum, just treat it like an 1858 Remington Army. In your case, rebarrel the revolver as long as you want it and just have a gunsmith add a stock that attaches securely to the grip or replaces the grip entirely.



Russ

Andrea, a company here in Italy make a revolver carbine in .454casull.



It's dog ugly as you can see but might be the cheapest way to get what you're after. First shot is double action, after that, it's like a single action.

http://www.mateba-arms.com/

Have a look at their site.