Personally taking my own rifle to Africa is a big part of the experience. I just saw it posted that Air Botswana will no longer be taking firearms. I also saw the Luftanasa is charging $300 each way to take firearms. On my most recent safari I flew both of these airlines.

I know travelling through London can also add hastles and expense and issues if flying to Zimbabwe.

Personally I'd hate to have to spend $600 extra to take my own rifles if I could even take them at all.

Also, many of us spend a lot of money on specialized rifles like big bores and doubles that serve no other real need outside of Africa.

Hopefully there will be some big pushback from hunters and SCI.

When will hunters organize and exercise their muscles!? I'd bet the money spent by hunters flying to these destinations is a significant part of their money on these routes, plus these countries could exert pressure on the airlines as well. some of these big "pro hunting" publications that survive entirely off of us, need to organize everybody. if there is an airline making it shit for hunters, everybody boycotts them not just on that route, but all routes and they let them know.

they, the anti-hunting, anti-shooting companies, make their money off of our not communicating and standing against them.

Just my 2c, and yes, it sucks ass, if it ever came to that it would really cast a shadow on my daydream of hunting the dark continent.

Red

Working up loads and practicing at the range for a planned hunt are all part of the adventure. When I can no longer transport my firearms to a hunting destination, that hunt will not take place. IMHO that is just the way it is.

I would never be comfortable hunting DG with a rifle I was not thoroughly familiar with and was positive would perform well. Just covering my butt and maybe many others as well.

I think it's only a matter of time before airlines either price hunters out of bringing their own firearms or political correctness/airline regulations forbid transport of firearms entirely.

I don't like that fact but nevertheless, I think it is a fact.

If it does happen, some safari companies will have to improve the quality of their loaner rifles dramatically but I can certainly see a time when hunters bringing their own firearms will be a thing of the past.

This is crazy and unfair considering most airlines allow add weight allowances for "other" sporting goods.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
This is crazy and unfair considering most airlines allow add weight allowances for "other" sporting goods.

Ain't that the bloody truth!

When you think passengers get free additional weight allowance for things like surf boards and golf clubs but not for rifles, it makes you sick.

It ain't gonna change though!

The good news is my loaner is a custom built .404 by Sabi Rifles in Nelspruit with a Swarovski 1.5-6 and QD mounts with shallow vee rearsight and red fibre optic foresight.

quote:

If it does happen, some safari companies will have to improve the quality of their loaner rifles dramatically but I can certainly see a time when hunters bringing their own firearms will be a thing of the past.

Luckily I have the firearms... Now if someone will just leave behind a nice double...
Seriuosly though, I think its part of the hunt, to use your "own idea of perfect," and it will keep the discussions around what bullet/ scope/ rife combo to the bear minimum on AR and elsewhere.

I reckon the biggest problem would be for the double rifle guys who simply won't be willing to use anything else except their own bunduki of choice...... and of course, the firearms laws in the African countries.

It's easy to say the outfitters can buy a few more decent rifles but it ain't as easy as that in some African countries...... the SA CFR for example can take literally years to authorise purchase of an additional firearm. I applied to sell a shotgun and buy another one at least 8 months ago and am still bloody waiting!

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:

quote:

If it does happen, some safari companies will have to improve the quality of their loaner rifles dramatically but I can certainly see a time when hunters bringing their own firearms will be a thing of the past.

Luckily I have the firearms... Now if someone will just leave behind a nice double...
Seriuosly though, I think its part of the hunt, to use your "own idea of perfect," and it will keep the discussions around what bullet/ scope/ rife combo to the bear minimum on AR and elsewhere.

And not a single LH .375 in the lot. I'd pass on that.

This may just be the final straw tha is required to galvanize international concerted pressure from pro-gun, pro-hunting bodies.

You see, (and Karl those are truly fine guns so don't take offense) I simply have no interest in hunting with another mans gun. The whole process & mindset starts with the personal affinity one develops for the whole gamut of the sport & where is the passion without a love for the specific 'ol friend, the gun?

Guns, wives & hosses aint fer lending...

There is a thing in the states called The Congressional Sportsmans Foundation. I have tried to contact their administrator in the past in order to canvass their potential interest & support for African hunter issues. I have never received a response. Clearly what happens over the water is of scant interest as it is not an American issue..

Perhaps issues such as this one will start making folk realise that our problems, issues and vulnerability is universal? What happens in some non descript little land, or at some corporate head-quarters if a threat to gun/hunter rights can lead all the way back to Washington.

Lufthansa is German. Has Zeiss, Swarovski, Blaser, Krieghoff, Wolfgang-Rommy, IWA etc. used their certain influence within German commercial structures to tweak the ignorant folk at the airline? Probably not. Are they nt the ones selling all these wonderful hunting related goodies predominantly to Amercans?

Are Americans & Europeans not the ones spending dollars & euros in Botswana. Not just on hunting but on other tourism and who buys their diamonds? Has this question been steered through the right channels back to Air Botswana?

At least for now I'm sure Saeed will keep Emirates a gun friendly airline

There is a whole big other hunting world out there, my life did not start with hunting in Africa and is sure as Hell won't end if I can't hunt there, in fact it may free me to hunt Europe or South America.

I just returned from Cameroon. I flew on Air Canada, Lufthansa [because it goes through Frankfurt not London (bad experience in the past)],Air France,and Air Leasing and was never charged a penny. Exception: $50 dollars to fly AIR CANADA from Vancouver to Calgary! I had purchased tickets a couple of months prior. I read the Lufthansa rumor here, but I have never heard that substantiated.
Jim

quote:

You see, (and Karl those are truly fine guns so don't take offense) I simply have no interest in hunting with another mans gun. The whole process & mindset starts with the personal affinity one develops for the whole gamut of the sport & where is the passion without a love for the specific 'ol friend, the gun?

I agree entirely. If I can't take my own gun(s) without huge expense or hassle, I'll just stay here in the U.S.A.

I don't like the extra charges that some airlines impose.

To my way of thinking, it's chickenshit. Just like charging for headphones, pillows and blankets, as some of them do.

But these charges are nickels and dimes compared to the cost of a safari, and I suppose that I will continue to pay them so that I can take and use my own firearms.

If we could get together with all the travel agents and only book on one airline when possible for on yr. It would open the eyes of the other airlines!! It would not be that hard if we got sci dsc nra together to promote it to

I wonder how many outfitters have left-handed rifles with 12 1/4" LOP's? Carrying my own rifles is not just a want, it is definitely a need - especially with dangerous game.

quote:

You see, (and Karl those are truly fine guns so don't take offense) I simply have no interest in hunting with another mans gun. The whole process & mindset starts with the personal affinity one develops for the whole gamut of the sport & where is the passion without a love for the specific 'ol friend, the gun?

Like he said.

quote:

Guns, wives & hosses aint fer lending...

I would have to add dogs to the list also....

If my gun don't go then niether do I. Just a Jim thing I guess but I see several more think the same.........

Sitting back and fondling a fine old rifle or shotgun and remembering the times you carried it and the game taken with it is a thing I don't want to do without.

After six trips I have had enough plainsgame hunting to satisfy me, so my next trip, if there is going to be a next trip, will be an elephant hunt. Using a loaner rifle is a no-go. If I can't use my 470NE DR then I will stay home.

The whole safari experience is important to me.
I. like to make my rifles the best I can, work up my own loads and then use them to take my trophys. When I can no longer take my own firearms I will stop hunting, in the meantime it is our duty to do all we can to make sure that we are not discriminated against by any airline. .

How many times in the last 25 years has Air Alaska tried to stop flying firearms? Each time the NRA and other organizations have put enough pressure on them to back off. Another good reason to support and be active in the organizations that can help.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Guns, wives & hosses aint fer lending...

I would have to add dogs to the list also....

If my gun don't go then niether do I. Just a Jim thing I guess but I see several more think the same.........

Sitting back and fondling a fine old rifle or shotgun and remembering the times you carried it and the game taken with it is a thing I don't want to do without.

+1 for the dogs!
"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." -Will Rogers

Like others have said, if my guns can't go -- I'm not going.

quote:

Are we seeing the end of taking our own rifles to Africa?

Not yet, but that would not stop me if I really wanted to go. That said, we oughtta hear this. If Africa sometime is important -- go now! I've been enough to satisfy the "my gun" part but not enough to be done hunting. Finances for me say "no" to going again soon, but I didn't leave room for regret.

If I have to use a safari company's equipment I would want masses of information up front so I could have weapons of my own to leave/practice like-with-like at home before trips. Also I would have to take stock add-ons along to ensure a good cheek-weld (leather pads, moleskin, cartridge holder sleeves, etc.)

Heck, I'd learn to bowhunt if they haven't gotten around to excluding pointy sticks. It's about the animals for me, and dangerous game is not a must. Now, what would I do with my .375 and .416 then? At least I have 'em in case I get to shoot something exotic stateside.

2 cents

Ok, let's see -
1) anti-hunting sentiment pressures airlines into charging extra for guns (and perhaps a total ban eventually),
2) fewer hunters go to Africa to hunt, and
3) PETA says, "WE WIN!!!".

I know it is tempting to say, "I just won"t go" - but isn't it more constructive to fight to right the wrong instead of saying "I won't play?"

I love the process - selecting the guns, the scope, the bullets - loading and testing and testing again. I would hate to use somebody else's rifle - but not going at all??? The rifle is a means to an end, not the end in itself.

Hell, the PH probably has a better rifle than I could afford to own anyway!

Dave

I personally wouldnt let it stop me; in fact, there were times I'd actually considered how much easier it would be to travel without them.
That said, I would ALWAYS prefer my own. Let's vocalize the fact that the extra charges/prohibitions will determine the airlines we hunters do business with, and make them realize it will hit them where it hurts: their wallets.

My take on guns and air travel is not that any of the extra charges we run into are necessarily anti gun or hunting its mostly just dollar driven. Guns take special handling and I'm sure they are a PITA for airlines therefore we are going to pay for it. As far as Air Botswana is concerned I just think it's "Africa wins again". On my way out of Maun last October Ait Bots could not have been more screwed up concerning the guns. it was a total cock up that followed us right up until we went down the jetway in JNB for our flight to Heathrow.

I think regardless of what hoops we have to jump through to take our own guns I think we need to do that. A lot of camp guns are real beaters with 7 pound trigger pulls and some really terrible optics. Don't ever expect PH to have rifles as good as yours. Even if his rifles are taken care of it doesn't mean they are tuned or will shoot worth a damn. For most PH's a rifle is a tool much like a hammer and deserves about the same amount of interest.

Mark

SAA likes them Yankee Dollars too much to see the cash flow slow even a dime. You just about have to fly into Jo-Berg first, so plan from there.

Karl, make me an offer on my Searcy .470 NE DR.

Rich

the sky is NOT falling, it's just some clouds passing over.

Just a comment on using outfitters firearms, from my own personal experience. I've done so twice, once using a pump shotgun in RSA and again using a .300wm in New Zealand. I had problems both times.

The shotgun was a 12ga. pump gun of undetermined origin, possibly a mixmaster or Chinese copy. It was for a Blue Duiker and it misfired twice, using my ammo. Second was a Remington 700 custom made by a well known U.S. riflemaker where the bolt release failed and the bolt would not stay in the rifle while hunting Red Deer. Both failures occurred while in the field hunting and I was unable to repair either of them. In both cases I used alternate weapons to take my trophies.

I'm not a fan of using outfitters firearms, no matter the quality, as they are by nature exposed to extensive use and certain mis-handling by some clients.

I agree with those that elected to stay home rather than hunt DG with a loaner. Part of the hunt is extensive practice with your rifle and familiarization with the bolt cycling and safety.

Sure, the anti's would like us all to give up, so we have to let the airlines know we mean business. If we are losing this battle, there is always an option: Charter a hunters only flight to Africa. The drawback is then the timing, but it is possible to offer this through SCI or other hunters group.

However, never give up on Africa as I feel someday all the safari hunting will be out of reach for the average hunter. So support Africa!!

Dak

I'm in the won't go catagory for all of the same reasons.(my guns, my ammo, my practice and comfort level with all, are all part of the experence)

If the problems are coming from the greed or political motivations within the airlines they will feel the pinch and unfortunately so will all of the industries that revolve around hunting!

So I won't quit quietly, and I will push my friends, organizations and legislators to heap on the pressure.

One way to do that is with statistics; So I propose a new poll;

And would suggest it include the following issues;

1 Do you condsider extra fees related to firearms in your choice of airlines? Y / N

2 Do major handling, importing and licensing fees factor into your decision to hunt in certain countries or destinations? Y / N

3. Would you be consider renting or using loaner firearms on;
A.Plains Game hunt y/n
B.Dangerous game hunt y/n
C.wing shooting hunt y/n

4. If you have to choose between paying high fees or using loaner guns or choosing a different destination which would you choose.

A. pay fees
B. loaner or rental gun
C. choose a different destination

Such information would surely be useful to all of the US and Foriegn based organizations that we might enlist in turning back this tide.

Perhaps others may have better wording or additional questions and also be able to post the poll!

Best Regards

Mike O

Mark is right. This is dollar driven. The PC angle just makes it easier.

If weapons are profitable for the airlines, they'll move them. If not, they won't. Overall, passengers with weapons as luggage has to be a minute fraction of the total. But, when a security agency holds a plane/luggage/whatever due to a weapon related issue, the whole flight loses dollars.
As a group, you might as well embark on a mission to educate security agencies on how the risk actually is for a weapon in a locked case stuffed in the belly of a jet. Don't even bother with the airlines.

The airline industry is in so much trouble as it is, I don't think they could create a restriction or fee that would surprise me at this point.

If it becomes a reality, I'll have to bring a crescent wrench so I can "fix" a right handed loaner gun for jetdrvr and me.

I wonder if you might someday see a shipping agency that ships your rifles to your destination seperately like FedEx or UPS? Maybe you send them ahead 2 to 3 weeks in advance and then have them shipped back 2-3 weeks later?

Either way I want MY rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
I wonder if you might someday see a shipping agency that ships your rifles to your destination seperately like FedEx or UPS? Maybe you send them ahead 2 to 3 weeks in advance and then have them shipped back 2-3 weeks later?

Either way I want MY rifle!

Won't happen for two reasons:
1. Too many countries would have to rewrite their firearms importation laws to grant temporary permits to weapons that came in as air freight.
2. It makes too much sense.

Either one is a deal killer for a bureaucrat.

I prefer my own equipment - but I will hunt Africa with a club if I have to.

Good on you Karl, that is a great assortment of hardware. I said it years ago, operators need to acquire good loaner rifles and optics, think of them as a cost of doing business just like the Cruiser. This allows hunters to choose to not fly with firearms, or take alternate routes/flights, and addresses the inevitable baggage delay/loss.

The ammo, that's the problem.

It is getting to be a real hassel to take your rifles on airlines any more. On my last hunt to Australia, I just left the rifles at home and borrowed a gun from the guide (worked out the deal before I left of course, he provided gun and ammmo, his personal firearms). It was very convenient traveling this way, but I missed having my own weapon. His rifles shot very accurately, he brought 3 for me to use. The problem was more with the ammmo. He reloads, and there were a few bad primers (misfire at critical time). Everything worked out OK. I think Australia is more of a hassel than Africa to bring in either guns or ammo. They make you declare in advance exactly how many rounds you will be bringing, and if you don't count correctly, they will confiscate any number of rounds over the paperwork. I borrowed a gun once on an African trip, and had not so much problem with the rifle, but again the ammo. No misfires, but some shot at different points of impact at the same range. Checked it out on the range to prove my point. When I use a shotgun in Africa, for small game at night, I always arrange for a 12 gauge to be available, and bring my own factory ammo. Don't want to be lugging along a shotgun.

quote:

Hell, the PH probably has a better rifle than I could afford to own anyway!

Not alway true.

As Mark said, the camp gun you get may not be what you want. And the PH may not lend you his personal weapon.

As someone else said, I would NEVER use a borrowed gun on an elephant hunt, unless I was already there and broke mine, or the airline lost it (sometimes happens).

Any body else remember back when you could actually carry your rifle right onto the plane with you? Elgin Gates and Herb Klein did it all the time! Read some of the old African hunting books!

Yes

quote:

Originally posted by RBHunt:
When I use a shotgun in Africa, for small game at night, I always arrange for a 12 gauge to be available, and bring my own factory ammo. Don't want to be lugging along a shotgun.

How exactly does this work? I have always been under the impression that bringing ammunition for a firearm you weren't travelling with was a big deal.

Please explain this process.

I love my personal firearms. I love load development and setting them up just the way I want them. BUT...traveling with a firearm has become a real drag. I've had issues with TSA going to Texas. I've had issues in Argentina. I've had issues in Jo'Burg even with a paid meet-and-greet escort. Twice my firearms in Jo'Burg were nearly ripped off before my eyes. Plus when I travel I like to do a day or two of touring in connecting places (Frankfurt, Buenos Aires, Cape Town, Swakupmund, etc). The logistics of where/how to store a firearm for a couple days becomes daunting.

So flame me if you want but my international hunting will include renting firearms. Outfitters/PH's take note...the quality of the firearms available to me will be a big factor in deciding if you get a booking! I like traveling as a simple tourist and then concentrating on hunting once I get there.