Just got back from RSA. When we arrived in Jberg we claimed our guns and waited in line to get our permits. I was approx. 12th in line and waited 4 hours to get my permit. There were about 20 people behind me and I know some of them must have waited 6-8 hours. Most everyone who had a connecting flight that day were going to miss it. The RSA police are terrible. Besides that I had a great hunt and will post pics as soon as I figure out how.

ga sixgunner, Did you have your SAP-520 filled out before hand or not?

Does anybody know how it works if you use one of those services like optima? How does it get you through faster than if you had the paperwork done ahead of time yourself, because they grease the wheel or what?

We have all the paperwork organised in advance and supply each client with a full safari back up service and our clients get through in about 20 minutes.......every time.....

Air 2000 met me at the gate (very cute ) and escorted me through the process. Took about 20 minutes. http://www.hunterssupport.com/

I've been through J'burg six times in the last two years without ever having to wait. Kathi Klines set it up four times and Louise at Afton House twice. Smooth as silk with no delays. Getting met in the Jet Way by a guy with your name on a board is the way to do it. My time (but more importantly, my patience) is worth more than the nominal fee.

It took me about 20 minutes last year to get through using Air 2000. Worth every penny IMHO. She is really pretty too which doesn't hurt the experience any.

twenty minutes? Not on the day I went through. I was seventh in line and it took me two hours and forty five minutes. While we were waiting in line another plane landed and a whole bunch more took up the waiting game. One poor soul who had a connecting flight to Namibia missed his flight. It seemed to make no difference whether you were represented by the folks in the nice striped jackets or not. I actually made it through before some of them.

I had my SAP form #520 filled out correctly in advance. This made no difference as the officer behind the desk had to laboriously copy my information into a ledger book and then hand it over to the folks who type it into the computers.

If it only took you twenty minutes, you must have been the only one in line and it must have been close to their quitting time and they wanted to go home.

Now, South Africa can have any laws they want regarding the transportation of firearms. I am not griping about that. It is the cost of doing business. I saw no difference between the folks who paid to have the nice people in the blue and yellow striped jackets help them and me as regards time. Actually, I made it through before some of them did.

I need to add one more thing to my previous post. Things seemed to be going smoothly until a gentleman from France got to the front of the line. It seems that he didn't have an export permit, nor did he have a letter of invitation from his PH. This would not have caused much of a problem if they had shuffled him aside and taken care of the rest of us, but they worked on him for over two hours before anyone else got processed. Nobody got through until he was taken care of.

Regarding the proof of export; for American clients will the 4457 suffice? If not, what did you provide as means of proof of export?

Ken Moody

Anyone have a web site address for Optima??

Thanks,
-Bob F.

What is RSA trying to do? Ruin its safari business or make Optima and Air2000 wealthy?

They better streamline this in a hurry or nobody is going to hunt RSA if they have to wait for 2 to 6 hours to get a damn gun permit. What a piece of crap!!!!

Did anyone see the cops taking bribes?

Regards,

Terry

http://www.optimahandling.co.za/ Optima


http://www.hunterssupport.com/ Air 2000

When I was leaving RSA a couple weeks ago, the SAPS officer said I had a problem with my paperwork... that the officer who filled in the serial number went out of the box and that was a major no no... He said he should take me to jail right there...

I played dumb and he "gave me a break and let me go..."

The gal from Optima who was standing just outside said he was most likely trying to worm his way into a pay-off.

I didn't bite... more out of naieveness than anything.

A lot of people are not going to hunt RSA again because of this fiasco... It wasn't too big of a deal to me as I was expecting it, due to reading the posts here...

Thanks Terry for the web site address!

Yeah, at least from what I've read and heard, I agree about things getting FUBAR in South Africa with the gun permit process. I'm going back to RSA in August this year. It will be my third trip to RSA to hunt. (Previous in 2000 and 2002.) I didn't use Optima or Air 2000 last time thinking it was not needed and it wasn't. But, apparently things have changed a lot since my last visit in 2002. (I realize the new firearms act went into effect since 2002.) I'm going with a friend and this will be his first visit to South Africa (or Africa). I want things to go smoothly so we will probably use Air 2000 or Optima to ease some of the hassles. BUT, depending upon how things go this coming August, I think I will start taking a serious look at Namibia for any future hunting plans in southern Africa. Might as well experience Namibia before it too gets screwed up!

-Bob F.

Apart from the good services provided by Optima Air2000 Afton etc whom we ALL know about and respect and most hunters whom have used them will tell you the (pittance paid) for their services is a LOT LESS than your blood pressure reading ....

BUT just a little overview for those whom have not experienced Africa before or some of the people in authority whom of cource might like a small sweetner as well ...

When you arrive at the counter a stern looking official will SLOWLY thumb through your paper work and have a blank look on his face, then after some scratching of the head and maybe even finger up the nose he might say ... Houston we have a problem ... Silence at first, and then some unintelligble discussion like those ARTY people do when viewing some painting that actually lookes like CRAP to the sane people of this world, the talk is not relavent at all and generally filled with bullsh.t and other words you and I dont understand ...

What the official in power is wanting of cource, is to test your patience and maybe check if there are any moths in your wallet that need to be realeased .... He will then piss off to see some other perceived person of standing ( THE BOSS ) and when he returns there will be more bulls.t talk and so on and so forth /// I think you are now getting the story of life in the slow lane called Africa ...

Good hunting

Peter

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
It would not wash in the USA so why should it go down and be accepted in the RSA!

I hate it as much or more than the next person, but it is common practice here in the US. I am in construction, and if I have a project in Houston, I've got to get a permit. In order to get that permit I can either jump through hoops for six weeks, or I can hire an expiditer who can, for some strange reason, get the permits issued in about half the time.

It's just another case of parasitic bureaucrats living off the blood of the general public.

I really could not agree with ALF more. I did (and will) use the Afton House again to get through the gun clearing process when I travel through the RSA on my way to Zim. But this antiquated process has begun to wear thin with those of us who remember the "good ol'days".

When I first started traveling to Africa to hunt in the early 90's I used to kid my buddies that hunted whitetail in Mexico that I went through less hassle than they did when they traveled a couple of hours and crossed a neighboring border. No more. In this age of technology the fact they still fill out forms by hand and can handle no more than one hunter at a time are truly ridiculous. And waits of up to six hours causing hunters to miss connecting flights are unexcusable in my opinion.

What really galls me however, is the members of PHASA who post here and say "grin and bear it" or "hunt with me and I'll whisk you through" instead of realizing what this does to their industry as a whole. I expect to have to register my guns for temporary import. No one should be immune but honestly, in a land riddled with crime how do hunters with rifles pose such a threat? The RSA is a great hunting country and I have come to her defense several times on this forum, but the gun laws that plague her citizens and now the paying hunter will have a devastating effect on the economy if the number of hunters dwindles due to the hassle factor. I don't care what the dollar/rand exchange rate is!

I have some real heartburn with the single file approach and the lack of responsiveness of SAP staff. I also feel like it is a "hold up" if you have to pay for a clearing agent to do what should not cost anything (particularly if they are not able to expedite the process for some unknown reason).

I understand that the cost for the clearing service agent might be well worth the stress reduction of sitting in line for 8 hrs and missing connections.

Has anyone used either of the services mentioned (Optima or Air2000) recently? What was the cost for the service? Did you send all of your paperwork via regular mail well ahead of your travel?

Thanks,
doug

quote:

Originally posted by ga sixgunner:
Just got back from RSA. When we arrived in Jberg we claimed our guns and waited in line to get our permits. I was approx. 12th in line and waited 4 hours to get my permit. There were about 20 people behind me and I know some of them must have waited 6-8 hours. Most everyone who had a connecting flight that day were going to miss it. The RSA police are terrible. Besides that I had a great hunt and will post pics as soon as I figure out how.

ga sixgunner,

What time of day did you arrive in Jberg? Was it early morning? Mid-day? I am just wondering if there is any relationship between arrival time and wait time.

Thanks,
Doug

I used Air 2000 last May, 2004. I scanned and emailed my paperwork to them. My flight arrived at approx 10:00am if I remember right so it wasn't "close" to their quitting time and it took no more than 20 minutes to get through. Luck?? Maybe, I just know what it took me. For the 75.00 it cost, it was well worth it to me to have someone meet me and help me get through a strange airport and customs. If someone doesn't want to use them, that is up to them and I couldn't care less. If you have enough African experience to handle everything on your own then more power to you. I appreciated the help. They even helped me find my PH after clearing customs.

quote:

Originally posted by patrkyhntr:
.....until a gentleman from France got to the front of the line. It seems that he didn't have an export permit, ........

Is this a new thing that you need an export permit or is that what US citizens use as a proof of ownership??

US citizens should have a US Customs form #4457 in their posession for any firearms they are taking into South Africa, or anywhere else for that matter. It is both proof that you own the firearm and also proof that the US Government knows you intend to export it (this is what Customs told me). The SAP accept 4457 as an export permit.

The gentleman from France does not have the advantage of French Customs having such a form. If you are interested, you can go to the SAP or PHASA websites to find out what other countries citizens are required to provide in the way of export approval.

I arrived on the flight from Atlanta, which I believe arrives at about 10:30 AM. There were about ten of us hunters on that flight, and then a flight from Europe landed and several more hunters were added. As I stated before, I was sixth in line. One of the nice expediters tried to insert one of his clients in front of me from farther back in the line, but I would not let him do so. I actually got through before some of the hunters represented by the expediters (they identified themselves as hunter support) who were ahead of me in line. The reason for this is that when the gnome who does the laborious copying into the ledger got done with mine, he put it on top of the pile waiting to be laboriously entered into the computers and it was the first one off the pile.
The SAP state that the service is free, and no expediting service is required. I will probably use such a service if I ever hunt in South Africa in the future, even though I am quite capable of filling out even the most ridiculous form.
I concur with Terry Carr in thinking that the SAP must streamline the process or risk killing the cash cow that is forengn hunters coming into their country and spending large sums of money.
What follows is the text of a letter I sent to the ministry of tourism and to the South African Police regarding this.

To whom it might be of concern:

On April 30, I entered South Africa via the airport at Johannesburg. This was my second visit to your country for a hunting safari. On the two safaris, I have spent over 120,000 rand. I am writing to you to let you know that the South African Police and their method of issuing permits for firearms to us hunters will seriously reduce your business in this area. It took me nearly two hours and forty five minutes to complete the processing, which any time and motion study expert will tell you could be done in a maximum of fifteen to twenty minutes per person. Some of the hunters on this date were only trying to make a connecting flight to Namibia or Zimbabwe, but still had to put up with the hassle.

To top this all off, there is a sign outside the office that states clearly, "no tipping." The officers involved not only expected a tip for performing this service, they demanded one. I had the same experience when I checked my firearm with the police to leave the country. When I inquired, the officer told me that if I didn't tip, I might not have my rifle make the plane which was leaving four hours later.

If you consider hunting to be an activity that brings money into your economy, you might want to look into this. As to me, it will be the last time I will hunt in South Africa. Other countries are much more friendly to us hunters and are appreciative of the money we spend.

Yes I had my forms filled out. My PH had my permit preapproved. He showed up with the original as he had faxed me a copy. The problem was that I had to wait in line behind other people who didn't have there forms filled out or were missing some of the requested paper work. My PH even pulled one of the SAP officers aside and explained I was already holding a permit and just needed for them to verify the serial numbers. When I finally got in the office it took all of 2 minutes and I was done. Even if I had used one of the services I still would have had to wait in line. Really my PH took care of everything that the service would have done. I did get to meet a couple AR guys though.

As in all things, there are right ways and "other ways" of doing anything. I have only been to RSA once. I went last year with JudgeG. From the time that the plane landed until we were in the bakki headed out with our PH was no more than 30 minutes total. We were met at the gate, escorted everywhere we went, and had our gun permits, luggage, and cleared customs quickly and efficiently. I was amazed at the long line of hunters who had no idea what to do, where to go, or what paperwork they needed. In talking to other hunters on the flight home, some of them had shown up with no proof of ownership, semi-auto weapons, and had major problems, including siezed weapons etc. I read this forum daily prior to leaving. I knew what to expect and what to do, and paid about $40.00 US for the "meet and greet" service that makes things so easy. RSA and the police at the airport are a royal pain in the ass, no doubt. But proper preparation, just like Preparation H can reduce the pain considerably.

I just returned Sunday the 22nd but flew into Cape Town. When I arrived in Cape Town on the 6th it was 2200 hours and I was the only one in line. Had all of the correct paperwork thanks to Ann Horsman and my PH. Wisked right through. The transfer from Cape Town to Johannesburg was transparent as the rifle was already cleared into the country. No problems or significant delays on departing Johannesburg.

From previous posts I was prepared for the long wait if necessary and had that built into my schedule. Nothing or nobody was going to ruin my African hunt. Also from some previous posts it had sounded like Cape Town is easier to clear weapons with the SAP.

My wife and I had planned on tourist things in Cape Town to acclimate to the time change and what a great city. We are planning for our second visit to RSA in 3-4 years and will go through Cape Town again transferring to JoBerg.

Will post picture and a hunting report in a few days. THANK YOU everybody for all of the tips and encouragement!

patrkyhntr, why would anyone going to Namabia or Zimbabawe have to get a RSA gun permit. You check your luggage thru to your final destination and never exit the international terminal.

Just got back on Monday, 14 day plains game, but alas, no leopard. Great trip.
Clearing Jo'Burg was a bit of a challenge, even with the SAP 520 filled out correctly in advance. Challenge is that only 1 or 2 people are accommodated at a time, and there are 10-20 hunters on each arriving flight from the States.

I had a small problem in that the letter of invitation from the PH didn't include his license number. Isn't required in the SAP regulations or instructions that I could find, but I was stymied until I furnished that information. Picture me on one side of the security checkpoint and the PH on the other, him waiting for me and me trying to call him on his cellphone.
Worked out OK, but the lesson here for AR members is.....
Get the license number !!!

Agree that if going through South Africa and you can check your guns on SAA all the way to your final destination, absolutely do so. Don't get them off in South Africa if at all avoidable.

Die Ou Jagter, I assume that he was changing airlines or that his luggage was not checked through to Namibia since they sent him to the SAP station?

I am going to Namibia to hunt next year, and intend to pursue alternatives as to flights. If at all possible I will avoid traveling through Joburg.

patrkyhntr, last yr when I hunted with Vaughan in Namabia I flew British Air all the way to Windhoek and never took possession of my guns between Dulles and Windhoek. It was as smooth as a babies behind, that included an 11 hr layover in Heathrow.

I went through SA Sap in early April. There were two hunters in front of me, we all had our paper work filled out ahead of time. Afton house was there to help the other two hunters. I don't think it took 20 minutes for all of us to get through the process. Louis from Afton house offered to help me get through. Checked my paper work then took the other two hunters to meet their PH. He came back to make sure I was getting through alright, then took me to and helped me get on the connecting flight to Cape Town. I tried to give him $20 and he refused. I finally forced him to take $10 for his help. I will sure use them on my next trip to SA. Afton Guest House,aftongh@netactive.co.za
There is no reason for anyone going on a connecting flight from Joberg passing through SAP firearms unless your overnighting in Joberg which I highly recommend you not doing. Check your guns through to your final destination and avoid the hassle.

465H&H