I am going to Zimbabwe soon on my first Safari and am wondering if the subject of when a PH is to open up on a animal. What is the normal protocol. Obviously if a cape Buffalo is charging the PH is going to shoot. What if you shoot the Buffalo and he is running off which probably normally happens? I personally would never want a bullet fired unless it was life threatening. One other Question --- If I hunt in Blue Jeans am I going to be thought of as Cro Magnon Man.

Normal Protocol:

DISCUSS WITH YOUR PH. Very Important to do this BEFORE you begin the hunt. Normally is defined differently by each individual; however, the reality is if the PH thinks you made a poor hit he will shoot, whether it is charging toward or away from you. BTW, try shooting one Plains Game animal or two to both build up your confidence and that of the PH- before you tackle the buffalo.

Blue Jeans:

Yes, you can wear them. BUT, there are MUCH better choices.

Minuch,

Lots of practice to build your confidence and do some plains game first, unless that trophy bull is there looking at you and
YES MAKE THE SHOT...
Tell Ph guidelines of how you expect him to back you up...My Ph gave me 3 shots and 20yds...then he opens up...

Mike

Lots of folks hunt in blue jeans, self included...

Just tell the PH that you want to do your own shooting, no help short of 10 ft. or wherever your comfortable...

The PHs that I associate with never shoot clients game unless told to by the client, or at the last minute when the bull gets within his bubble...

Minuch,

The comment I hear most often is "It's your asnimal". I've never hunted with or talked to a PH that automatically put in a follow up shot but you should as suggested get that very clear at the outset with your PH.

Jeans are fine but I have found them too hot. I've hunted with a couple of PH's that wore them everyday. Wear what you find comfortable. No need to look like you came out of a Cabels's add.

Regards,

Mark

PH taking the shot? When I started hunting with my PH from Zim we had a talk about when he should shot, I felt that it was my animal to kill, on plains game, god forbid I make a bad shot, we track it till I take it down. On DG, if my PH feels I made a poor shot he will shoot if it's a bad situation. I have to give my PH alot of credit, he has done a super job with me, he has never had to assist me with putting down a critter, well there was the one Impala that I shot for bait, we were pressed for time to get a bait hung, and of course I picked this time to make a bad shot, we walked in the direction it went, when it jumped up in front of us PH Brent was a split second faster shouldering his gun, that was the only time on 5 safaris and 88 trophies later.

Make sure you talk it over with your PH, get it worked out before a situation arises!!

Jeans are to warm to wear while hunting in Africa, bad color too! Stick with lighter weight and more on the soft tans and greens....

Some of the descriptions of when a PH will shoot that I read in this thread are not what I want. My preference is for the PH to hold his fire until we are facing a charge and the animal is nearly on top of us. At 20 yards the animal is not even dangerous, so I would be very disappointed if my PH shot at that range. On PG there is no reason for the PH to shoot unless the client asks him to.

On one PG hunt my PH didn't carry a rifle - even when we were tracking a lion through the hills "for fun". He was a young guy and we had a great time.

On my other hunt, my PH put a 5th shot into the neck of my buff; it hadn't breated for five minutes but he was paranoid about buff because of past experiences.

mike

What is going to garner the biggest ass chewing from the client for the PH?

Putting a second round in the animal to insure it's harvest or not shooting and letting it get away wounded.

Keep in mind the client still has to pay if he draws blood. As so many have said. You owe it to your PH to discuss your priorities with him first.

I have had a couple of times hunting plains game when the ph was a little quick on the draw. I didnt appreciate it then and dont now. What it taught me was to discuss this well in advance of getting into the bush. I agree that on plains game there is no reason for a ph to shoot unless the client wants them to.

quote:

Originally posted by TheBigGuy:
What is going to garner the biggest ass chewing from the client for the PH?

Putting a second round in the animal to insure it's harvest or not shooting and letting it get away wounded.

Keep in mind the client still has to pay if he draws blood. As so many have said. You owe it to your PH to discuss your priorities with him first.

Valid concerns. For me, my shooting is a matter of pride. My shooting is a major part of "my hunt." If I don't kill it, I don't want it. I'll gladly track day and night for something or someone I shot, to make the kill, but I don't want ANYONE doing my shooting for me. This includes dangerous game. The only time I'd want a PH to open fire is if I'm on my back yelling "SHOOT! SHOOT!" or I'm unable to yell because I'm busy plugging a hole in my body with a Cape buffalo's horn. Otherwise, 10 yards away, 10 feet away, or an inch away, it's MY shot.

I don't mind the PH shooting my game if he's going to eat the trophy fee. I agree with the others, though, it's best to make things clear up front, before "what if" situations happen.

Russ

You need to remember the PH is responsible for your safety as well as the safety of his crew and if you should gut shoot a lion and it's running toward the "tall grass" he really needs to try and stop it from becoming a real train-wreck.

I can see his defense in front of a license review board when he says "He told me not to shoot unless it was on top of him." I'm sorry he's maimedor dead (your choice of words) but I was just following his instructions."

A PH is expected to put his life in front of his clients but the client can't be a raving maniac about being the only one to shoot if things start to go "south in a hurry".

All this is well and good, and a PH should automatically know when to intervene and most do on dangerous game..but I would not allow a client to get me injured if I were a PH..

Whatever he does is his call and you simply have to live with it, give him a load of s--t and you may have to walk out!!!

Most PHs get mauled and/or stomped more than a few time in their careers if they stay in the business, and one can get a bit ouchy when a client lays down the law that is not within reason...I don't think that Pierre has not popped a cap on a client in probably 5 years or more except with me and he and were hunting together and we shot two nice bulls at the same time...He takes pride in not interveneing but if he did the client would just have to live with it....

I think reason plays a big part in this scenario and the PH many times sees things that the client is oblivious of...

I will say this that once a buffalo is wounded with a poor hit and he pumps 50 gallons of adrenaline into his system, it will probably take more than one gun to kill him..I have seen and have on film two buffalo that took 9 and 13 hits from 470s and 500s...So if you gut shoot a buffalo then everyone should be shooting in the real world, that ain't no internet shooting, it's the real McCoy....

A Leopard comint out of a tunnel of grass will also get all to shooting or an elephant on top of you at 10 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Some of the descriptions of when a PH will shoot that I read in this thread are not what I want. My preference is for the PH to hold his fire until we are facing a charge and the animal is nearly on top of us. At 20 yards the animal is not even dangerous, so I would be very disappointed if my PH shot at that range. On PG there is no reason for the PH to shoot unless the client asks him to.

Dan, at 20 yds a buff at full tilt will be on you in less then 5 seconds... So I had the possibility to empty my gun and kill it before it hits 20yds. There is a possibility that if you take him out under 10yds he can summersault and the momentum carry him into you...

Mike

I guess it all goes back to making the first shot count.

Russ

Every PH has his own rules... I belive its your animal and I will shoot it only if someone is going to get hurt. That said I have been whined at for not putting a back up shot in on a buff which too what looked like a reasonable hit and galloped into the sunset.

Some PH's though, particularly if they are not happy with the clients shooting hang on the trigger with buff, lion or ele. Done right the client will not even know that the PH has fired.

Those that back up - After the clients shot (as opposed to virtually simultaneously) are usually those that have had too much fun following wounded animals in thick cover.

Discuss first- before you even fire a sighting shot. Some clients expect to be backed!

But two stories to enlighten and entertain.

1) Client briefed the PH not to back him on a lion in the Gwaai area. His and his Alone. Young male came to the bait on the last evening of the hunt and the PH said shoot. The client took careful aim - and decided against it. "Shoot" said the PH, urrrr -Bang- "great shot" said the PH - and the client opened his rifle - he hadn't fired. The PH was so convinced that he would shoot and miss that he had fired on impulse. With our currency regulations getting the daily rate back to re-imburse the client took quite some paperwork and alot of explaining - to my enjoyment and the great discomfort of the PH - made even more enjoyable by the fact that he had knocked 4 of my teeth out in a brawl between parks staff and farmers at the Gwaii River Inn a few years previously

The second involves a greek PH who goes by the name of Dim Livingdeadloss (in the usual way that All Greek surnames are massacred by the local language). The client was very insistant that he shot everything and that he did so with only one shot. The PH is one of those inclined to back up at the slightest hint of something going wrong and the client had worked this out.
"you shoot my animals and I will pay nothing for this safari" was the brief. On the buff the PH bought his rifle up in case. And the client lowered his and warned not to even think of shooting.

One shot and the buff was down. An insurance shot please - said the PH. "no. I only need one bullet for each animal" A nervous approach but the buff was indead dead.

Same on the leopard.

On the ele, they approached to within 20 paces and the client got ready to fire, and the PH lifted his rifle. "shoot my animal and I will pay nothing for any of them" snaped the client. The PH lowered his rifle, but the ele had heared the noise and wheeled to face them. Smoothly the client took the shot and the elephant went down - front legs, back legs- to rest in the picture perfect squatting possition.

An insurance shot- pleaded dim, but the client walked forward and touched the ele's eye with his rifle and got no reaction. "See, one shot only". PH and client propped their rifles up on a tree and dug out camera's. Dim using the clients and his well trained tracker standing by with his automatic. The client climbed onto the elephant head, sat down, pulled the ears over his legs and requested some photos.

Dim got one photo off before the ele decided to stand up! Client leapt to his feet, but by then the ele was standing up! Dim grabed his .404 and poured a hail of lead into the ele which convieniently died and collapsed sideways.

Nobody would have believed this if Dim's tracker hadn't frosen with his finger on the button and Dims camera had taken 13 photo's (all that were left on the spool) of the incident. (including one of his bullets skiming the top of the ele's head and passing between the clients legs!). Dim had to put another spool in the camera for the last photo- the clients underpants hanging on a thorn!

Lion, leopard, buff, sable, Gensbok, bushbuck and ele are not dead until the head is off and the skin in the salt. Touching the eye trick doen't work reliably in the case of spinal concussion either.

In general I agree that the PH do not have to back the client up on PG, DG is another matter all together. Here it is not only the hunter, but also the tracker, PH and fotographer that can be injured when thins go wrong.
What is more important? To be alive and telling a story or dead and some one telling a story about how you were trampled or bitten because you had a to big ego. The PH is responsible not only for your health, but also the other people who comes along on the hunt. Also keep in mind that there arepeople living in the area where you are hunting that do not have the high power rifles to protect themselves against animals wounded by the hunter. Also keep in mind that most trackers do not have live insurance and if he gets trampled his family will not have any income.

Wimpie

Minuch

Shoot some some plains game first most phs will not carry a rifle on plainsgame hunts.
I talk to the client and only shoot when he has had three rounds out of his rifle at an oncoming animal ie his nmagazine is empty., if not 20 yards is my rule as most dangerous game can cover that distance in a heart beat and if he is not dead by then A 505 gibbs does the job admirably.
TELL YOUR PH WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE HIM TO DO ALL OF US LISTEN.

Contrary to belief none of us really want to shoot your animal that is why YOU are on safari.
regrads
ian
hunting hard, shooting straight and loving every minute of it

Gentlemen,

This is the sort of decision that seperates the REAL African PH from the wannabees - who really have no place in Africa at all, but in a one of those Hollywood movies where reality takes a back seat to the pretermined script.

I tell my PH to shoot any time he feels he has to, regardless if it was a buffalo or an impala. And so far it has happened only once. When I wounded a warthog, and he got into a thicket, surrounded by an open area. We agreed that if it came out my side I would shoot it, and if it came out at his side he would. The warthog came out running on my PH side, and he made a fantastic running shot, with the warthog summersaulting head over heels.

I used to wear jeans, and then switched to light weight khaki trousers from SPORTIF, and I wear the same make shirts too.

It might also depend on how the PH feels about you. On my one plains game safari with a PH he decided not to carry a rifle, leaving me with all the responsility and that was fine with me. I haven't always hunted with a PH anyway. When you are a resident in an African country you more than likely hunt with a friend and a tracker. On a dangerous game hunt it is good insurance to be two rifles, with one in a stopping caliber with someone who knows how to shoot it.

You need to spend a couple days chasing a zebra with an arrow in him to loosen you up on this.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:

The second involves a greek PH who goes by the name of Dim Livingdeadloss (in the usual way that All Greek surnames are massacred by the local language). The client was very insistant that he shot everything and that he did so with only one shot. The PH is one of those inclined to back up at the slightest hint of something going wrong and the client had worked this out.
"you shoot my animals and I will pay nothing for this safari" was the brief. On the buff the PH bought his rifle up in case. And the client lowered his and warned not to even think of shooting.

One shot and the buff was down. An insurance shot please - said the PH. "no. I only need one bullet for each animal" A nervous approach but the buff was indead dead.

Same on the leopard.

On the ele, they approached to within 20 paces and the client got ready to fire, and the PH lifted his rifle. "shoot my animal and I will pay nothing for any of them" snaped the client. The PH lowered his rifle, but the ele had heared the noise and wheeled to face them. Smoothly the client took the shot and the elephant went down - front legs, back legs- to rest in the picture perfect squatting possition.

An insurance shot- pleaded dim, but the client walked forward and touched the ele's eye with his rifle and got no reaction. "See, one shot only". PH and client propped their rifles up on a tree and dug out camera's. Dim using the clients and his well trained tracker standing by with his automatic. The client climbed onto the elephant head, sat down, pulled the ears over his legs and requested some photos.

Dim got one photo off before the ele decided to stand up! Client leapt to his feet, but by then the ele was standing up! Dim grabed his .404 and poured a hail of lead into the ele which convieniently died and collapsed sideways.

Nobody would have believed this if Dim's tracker hadn't frosen with his finger on the button and Dims camera had taken 13 photo's (all that were left on the spool) of the incident. (including one of his bullets skiming the top of the ele's head and passing between the clients legs!). Dim had to put another spool in the camera for the last photo- the clients underpants hanging on a thorn!

Lion, leopard, buff, sable, Gensbok, bushbuck and ele are not dead until the head is off and the skin in the salt. Touching the eye trick doen't work reliably in the case of spinal concussion either.

Ganyana, thank you for the delightful stories. The one about Dim Livingdeadloss in particular needs to be published in paper form with those 13 photos so that future generations may enjoy it as well.

Makes you wonder how many clients give the "Don't shoot" lecture to their PH and at the end of the hunt are sick when they have to pay their trophy fee for a wounded animal that wasn't found.

Not saying to have the PH blaze away, but let's face it, it is easy to say "make the first shot count" but in the real world there are no guarentees.

IMHO, unless someone is more than willing to eat a trophy fee, it is best left up to the judgment of a reputable PH as to when to help out.

On my buff. hunt in Moz. last fall, I hunted w/ 2 diff. PHs (diff. concessions). The younger guy hunted w/ me in the thick stuff. He told me shooting was going to be very close & if the buff. didn't drop @ the shot, he was putting his nickel in (or at least his .458s worth). We got close many times, really close, less than 20yds several times. I could see the wisdom of his thought, one shot may be all you get in that close, especially w/ a bolt gun.
I didn't get a shot in the jungle, but hunted later in the more open swampy area. The PH I hunted w/ there was only going to shoot if I got in trouble, but then you could pretty much see the buff. out 50yds+. My one shot was enough w/ one for insurance just because one should always pay the insurance.

This is the buff I shot last August 2004. He was one of two dugga boys we tracked in the THICK brush for over 3 hours. Finally got a shot at him in a small opening when he turned back to face us. The classic "you owe me money" look. I hit him in the chest at approx. 25 yards with a 416 Rigby and 400 grain Barnes X at 2,400 fps.

At the shot, the buff came for us. He probably took 2 to 3 steps (in .00001 seconds) and the PH fired his .458 Win Mag with a 500 grain solid. His shot hit about two inches higher and an inch to the right of mine. The buff dropped to the PH's shot. I shot again (now a 400 grain solid) just as the buff hit the ground. My shot went high, over his head, and hit him in the hind quarter as he lay on the ground.

On my first shot, I hit the buff exactly where I was aiming. The only problem was that I was not taking a CNS shot. After the dust settled, the PH said that my first shot was perfect and the buff probably would have died within 40 yards from the first shot. The problem was he was coming for us and we were only 20 yards away.

I have hunted twice (DG & plainsgame) with this very experienced PH and this was the only time he fired his rifle.

I think 500 Grains said that a buffalo is not dangerous at 20 yards. I'm confident that he would quickly change his mind if he was standing where I was when this buffalo decided he was going to teach us a lesson.

Had the PH not dropped the buff on his first shot, we each would have had maybe one more shot each. At that point though, the buff would have been within 10 yards and fully committed to taking one (or both) of us out.

Anyway, a very exciting hunt. I feel that my PH excercised reasonable judgement in this situation.

Tim

I think we all agree that Cape Buffalo are tougher and quicker than humans.

The "average" reasonably fit human can cover 25 yds in about 4 seconds and humans on adrenaline have been known to fight for up to 2 minutes after a "kill" shot to the heart.

So unless you're willing to roll the dice that you or the PH will deliver a round that is going to interupt the Central Nervous System first time every time under pressure...I would suggest you let the PH shoot...

When he thinks its necessary...

Nice buff. Tim. You're 100% right on the buff. being dangerous @ 20yds. A lot can happen in the thick stuff @ 20yds.

When is the right time for a PH to shoot?

Ideally, in a perfect world, the PH shouldn't shoot until the very moment before the time when, if he hadn't shot, you or some other poor bastard would have been killed or badly injured.

Are you going to split hairs about when that time has arrived, or come to a clear understanding and cut the PH some slack?

Not just the hunter, but also the PH and his unarmed, defenseless and pre-occupied trackers, are also in jeopardy. If you've blown the first shot, then it's time to cut the macho bullshit and just get the job done as best you--and your PH--can do it.

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:
I hit him in the chest at approx. 25 yards with a 416 Rigby and 400 grain Barnes X at 2,400 fps.
At the shot, the buff came for us. He probably took 2 to 3 steps (in .00001 seconds) and the PH fired his .458 Win Mag with a 500 grain solid.

I think 500 Grains said that a buffalo is not dangerous at 20 yards. I'm confident that he would quickly change his mind if he was standing where I was when this buffalo decided he was going to teach us a lesson.

Your PH did the safe thing, and is sounds like you and he hunt very well together. Certainly every person should hunt in the way that best suits him.

It is hard for anyone else to say what they would have done because they were not there standing in your shoes. However, my advance instructions to the PH would have been that he is not to shoot in such a situation, at least not until I am out of ammo or until someone else is in imminent danger. I do not ride a motorcycle or hunt DG in order to increase my longevity, and if Will gets to post, "He got squashed, no condolences" about me, then so be it. This is not intended as a comment on your hunt. I just want to clarify my philosophy which otherwise could be misunderstood.

This topic sounds to me like it is more about ego and pride than anything else. I think I can say that majority of PH's including myself can all agree that there is nothing more that we like to see than a hunter that is a perfect shot and never wounds anything

But in the real world none of us are perfect and I have seen way too many times a hunter that is a great shot not be able to perform all the time, and guess what? That is okay because we all make mistakes, and it should not be that bad of a thing when you have a PH that is there to fix the problem and make sure that you go home not only with your hard earned trophy but safe as well

There is a lot more to consider on this topic than how mad you would get at your PH or how you will refuse to pay the trophy fee

I do not know if you have thought about what the reposibilities and duty are of a PH? A PH has the the number one duty to make sure that all involved on the hunt are safe and not put in any unwanted dangerous situations. Secondly, the PH has a duty and respect to the animal to make sure that it does not get wounded and get away.

The PH will put you on your animal and tell you which one he thinks you should shoot and you trust his judgment at this time. It is the hunters duty to know if he can make a clean shot and then do so. The PH does not want his client to shoot a buffalo in the gut just so they will have some excitment! A normal PH wants his client to make a clean shot and a clean kill as he has put a lot of work into getting the client the shot at that animal.

If the client does not make a clean shot on the animal and the PH knows that it is wounded, but will get away or will put everyone in a dangerous position, why would the client not trust the PH at this time as well

I have not had to deal with this type of problem and all my clients have trusted my descions. I think it is a two way street though. The client wants respect and total control of the shooting, but I think that a client has to prove himself as well. Is it worth a clients ego to be hurt or have someone else hurt just because they demanded no help from the PH?

I always ask my clients what they think or prefer with this topic the first night in camp and is a good way to get started with a client, so that everything is on the table. I will respect all of my clients wishes as it is their safari, but they must also in return respect my judgment and my duty.

I totally agree that any PH that just shoots for the sake of shooting because they want to, is out of hand and is wrong! I am discussing the matter of when a PH knows that it is a bad shot, and the animal will either get away or present a dangerous situation if he does not solve the problem right then and their. If he does not and someone gets hurt, then he will be the one that the same client will blame for being reckless!

Hunt with a reputable PH and if you respect him enough to hunt with him and for him to judge your trophies, then respect your PH enough with his judgment on whether he should shoot or not. You should have a great time and be able to enjoy your evenings back at camp

by 500 Grains

"my advance instructions to the PH would have been that he is not to shoot in such a situation, at least not until I am out of ammo or until someone else is in imminent danger."



500 Grains, I am just curious, have you ever hunted dangerous game? Your advice sounds a lot more theoretical than practical.

As Safar12 pointed out in the above post, these PH's are not going to take a chance of letting you get stomped/gored, etc. They also want to make it home to their family in one piece. They are also responsible for making sure the trackers, game scout and any other guests, cameramen, whoever, make it home safely.

If you look at the photos I posted above, I hit that buffalo square in the chest with a 400 grain .416" Barnes X at a chronographed 2,400 fps. At the shot, that buffalo was coming for us to square up. Other than Mark Sullivan, I don't think there are many PH's (including yours) that would wait for the buffalo to close the distance. This is especially true for PH's that carry bolt action rifles. They know that if they wait to shoot when you are in "imminent danger" they will only be getting one shot off.

Given the same situation, I doubt if your PH would live up to your request of "don't shoot until I'm almost dead".

Anyway, we will never know, becuase 99.9% of the time the buffalo will run away at the first shot. So, even if you hunt buffalo as much as Saeed, your chances of seeing a charge in thick brush are almost nil (unless you hunt with Mark Sullivan, and then your PH WILL shoot your buffalo).

I think the two old dagga boys we tracked were probably tired of being molested by lions.

Tim

quote:

Originally posted by Shumba:
[QUOTE]
my advance instructions to the PH would have been that he is not to shoot in such a situation, at least not until I am out of ammo or until someone else is in imminent danger. [QUOTE]

500 Grains, I am just curious, have you ever hunted dangerous game? Your advice sounds a lot more theoretical than practical.

As I said, I was not attempting to comment on your hunt, so you should not have taken it personally. My words are not advice at all, just an expression of my philosophy. It is already very clear that my philosophy does not apply to you, so please do not take any offense from it. And yes, I do have DG experience although only a small amount (only 2 buff, 4 elephant). And no, the PH never shot 0.0001 seconds after I did. The PH did the gentlemanly thing and let the paying client do the shooting. Even more importantly, the PH did not shoot on rather startling elephant charges. But maybe the charges were not startling - I am not experienced enough to know if the charges should be considered startling or not.

quote:

As Safar12 pointed out in the above post, these PH's are not going to take a chance of letting you get stomped/gored, etc. They also want to make it home to their family in one piece. They are also responsible for making sure the trackers, game scout and any other guests, cameramen, whoever, make it home safely.

When considering a buffalo hunt with one outfit, I asked the PH what his policy was on shooting. He said something like, "If your buffalo doesn't drop at the shot, I will open up on him. We are not going to track a wounded buffalo all over the place." Wanna bet whether I booked with them? Ha! Clearly the safest thing will be for the client to stay home and let the PH shoot all the trophies and just mail them over here.

The bottom line is that dangerous game hunting is dangerous. If either the client or PH feels uncomfortable with that, there is plenty of very enjoyable and challenging plains game hunting available. And if you don't like cold weather, stay away from Mt. Everest.

quote:

If you look at the photos I posted above, I hit that buffalo square in the chest with a 400 grain .416" Barnes X at a chronographed 2,400 fps. At the shot, that buffalo was coming for us to square up. Other than Mark Sullivan, I don't think there are many PH's (including yours) that would wait for the buffalo to close the distance. This is especially true for PH's that carry bolt action rifles. They know that if they wait to shoot when you are in "imminent danger" they will only be getting one shot off.

PH's are individuals just like the rest of us, and each has his own way of doing things. I do not think you can possibly predict how every PH on the African continent would handle the situation. Again, I do not mean to comment on your hunt, your PH or you.

quote:

Given the same situation, I doubt if your PH would live up to your request of "don't shoot until I'm almost dead". Anyway, we will never know, becuase 99.9% of the time the buffalo will run away at the first shot. So, even if you hunt buffalo as much as Saeed, your chances of seeing a charge in thick brush are almost nil (unless you hunt with Mark Sullivan, and then your PH WILL shoot your buffalo).

Don't you think it is likely that your buffalo was not charging, but was merely reacting to your shot? If 99.9% of the time a buffalo does not charge, then it is very unlikely your buffalo was actually charging you. He could easily have turned or run right past you. And from 25 yards I suspect you could have gotten another shot or 2 into him, even with a bolt gun.

Once again, no offense intended, I am only expressing my philosophy to you. Best wishes.

[/QUOTE]

Don't you think it is likely that your buffalo was not charging, but was merely reacting to your shot? If 99.9% of the time a buffalo does not charge, then it is very unlikely your buffalo was actually charging you. He could easily have turned or run right past you. And from 25 yards I suspect you could have gotten another shot or 2 into him, even with a bolt gun.
[/QUOTE]

500 Grains,

You could be right about the buffalo just heading my direction after the charge. When I made my comment about the .00001 second timeframe, it was really an exaggeration in an attempt to describe how fast a buffalo can move and close the distance.

In terms of how it really went down, we had tracked these two bulls for about 1.5 hours and then they caught our scent and took off. Early on, we also saw quite a few lion tracks in the area and the trackers thought that maybe these buff had been getting hassled by a couple of lions. After bumping them the first time, we waited about 15 minutes and headed after them again. Bumped them one more time. We also had to dodge some elephant, which seemed to be a daily event.

Finally after about 3 to 3.5 hours, the wind was right and we caught up to them. They were moving away from us, so we kept up a fast pace. Once the buffalo were spotted, the trackers and game scout hung back a bit. Ian, the PH, and I must have made some noise or something, because the rear bull stopped and turned to look at us. We were probably 25 yards away right now, but that is just a guess. The PH said in a low voice "you have to shoot him now". The PH was only about 7 feet or so from me, but he had a better look at the bull. I actually could only see a big black mass and had to asked the PH, "which way is he facing". The PH did not have to answer, because as I finished those words, the bull turned 90 degrees to face us and took a step forward. There was still some brush, but I could clearly see him looking at us. He was pretty much facing us directly, with his hind quarters visible a little on the left.

I had my Leupold 1.5-5x turned down to 1.5x (should have just used the iron sights) and I placed the crosshairs on his chest at a point which would angle the bullet slightly from the left to the right. I shot and hit just where I was aiming. He was looking directly at me the entire time. You could see him get hit, but he looked like a person getting punched really hard but not getting knocked down.

I don't know how long it took, but he kind of gathered himself back up and then came through the brush straight at us. I was putting another round (a 400 grain Bridger solid in the chamber) in the chamber as he was heading our way. He probably made it 5 yards (a guess) and was now about 18 to 20 yards away. It was pretty clear and open between us. At this time, I was getting him back in my scope and the PH shot. I think the PH's shot clipped the buffs spine where it comes down low in the neck. The buff dropped instantly. I was in the process of getting the sight picture in the scope as the buff dropped. I shot again, literally as he hit the ground. It was a weird angle and a hurried shot, so I shot just over his head (I was aiming for his head) and hit him just before his back leg. Anyway, he let out a bellow and then kicked the bucket.



In the above photo, you can see my first shot in the left hand portion of his chest. The PH's shot is in the chest but covered by blood. The blood on his back by his back leg is from my 2nd shot with a solid. I was facing the buffalo and shot over his head, due to the angle, and the bullet hit him back there. Not a great showing on my part, but it was some fast action.

Anyway, kind of a long story giving a few more details of the hunt. The PH said the buff was charging as did the trackers (they were further back though). Who really knows. Basically the PH took his shot in about the time it took for me to chamber another round and get back on target. The rifle was a Ruger M77 .416 Rigby, so I don't really know how long it took me to recover from the recoil of the first shot and rechamber a round. But that is how long the PH waited.

On my first buffalo hunt with this same PH, I was using my .375 H&H and I asked him his policy on shooting. His comment was "you have to kill it yourself". In two hunts, he only fired his rifle once on my 2nd buffalo. In reality, I think he just hates using up his precious .458 ammo.

My first buffalo was in a herd and ran right after I put a 300 grain Swift A-Frame through his lungs from 35 yards away. I then chased him by running parallel and by the time it was over, I had put a 300 grain Barnes solids thru his lungs and two more solids thru his shoulders. I'm sure the PH was on my heals during all the shooting, but I didn't notice him until it was all over.

Here is a photo of my first buff



Both hunts were great and I think I got my money's worth. Can't wait to do it again!

Tim

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
made even more enjoyable by the fact that he had knocked 4 of my teeth out in a brawl between parks staff and farmers at the Gwaii River Inn a few years previously

I think I know this fellow.


***


Saw a DVD last week where the PH did and also discussed him shooting every buffalo immediately after the client.

Um, not for me, nor my trophy fees.

My experience with hunting big game is similar to those of Tims. I have killed 4 buffalo and one large Grizz. In every situation I was in my own zone. I could hear my heart beating and the hair on my neck was at full salute. All my focus was on the task at hand and I became oblivious to my surroundings. It seems like things go into slow motion however in reality the kill happens very fast. If my PH were to shoot I am not sure I would even know. I have developed a strong friendship with the man I choose to hunt with in Africa. If he ever feels the need to back me up on any animal then no ill will would be felt. What many people fail to realize is how dangerous and powerful large animals can be. Most of us including myself lack the experience of having a buffalo crashing toward you in full charge. Most PH's who have hunted dangerous game have. It they feel the client has made a marginal shot most will put lead in the air without even thinking. It is not only their job but also their responsibility. I hope to enjoy many more buffalo hunts before hanging up the safari boots. The thrill for me is not counting the number of holes in the dead animal making sure every one came from my rifle, but enjoying the stalk and shaking hands with one of my best friend after our hunt is sucessful.

Mark, do you have something against Cabelas? I find their safari line of clothing to be very comfortable cut with b*ll room etc.. I think it looks better than if you look like you just came from the Hluhluwe flea market, eh.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
Mark, do you have something against Cabelas? I find their safari line of clothing to be very comfortable cut with b*ll room etc.. I think it looks better than if you look like you just came from the Hluhluwe flea market, eh.

Pssssst! Pssssst! It's the OTHER thread with the Cabela's slamming.

Russ

This is not remotely similar to the stories above concerning DG, I only bowhunt and I can say that on my one and only safari the PH and I discussed this at lenght before the start of the hunt. i indicated and I wanted every oppertunity to finish what I started with the bow.With that said everything I took went down within 150-300 yds with the exception of a wildebeest that I hit to high and above the "V" with ony 13-14 inches of penetration. Long story short we spent 10 long hours trying to get in to a position to put another arrow in him, finally I told the PH that given the first opening he should put him down,granted He asked if I wanted to take him with the rifle I respnded no. I could have used the gun but at that point putting the animal down was a greater concern then me saying I got him un assisted.In hind sight and if I knew that we could not get in close for a finishing shot I would have told the PH to do it at the first oppertunity.

Love the DG stories. I only bowhunt with stick and string, but the tales of double guns and cape buffaloes t get me going. Probably will never be able to handle the wieght recurve that is needed for cape buffalo and I would not go high tech to do it( thats just me sorry. Haven't taken anything with a gun in probably 30 years but given the funds $$$ I would love to hunt cape buffaloe.

Thanks for all the fine stories. Aka a new guy

I have yet to hunt DG, but Wimpie who posted above was one of my PHs on my trip. We lost a gemsbok that I mucked up, although I did empty my rifle at it as it was running, with Wimpie's blessing. I do regret that I did not ask him to also help out and put the animal down with his fully loaded .338. As it turned out, I paid for the damn animal, and didn't get the trophy. He was wounded, lost in a downpour and never found, dead or alive.

Wimpie was such a nice guy, he did't push to shoot, but in that circumstance it would have been better to have him shoot too.

The other PH and I, on yet another gemsbok, agreed that if there was any doubt, he should follow up....so I wouldn't lose another one! Well, I fired, and he immediately followed up..boy was his .338 LOUD, right next to my head...we should have sorted this out too?

I posted elsewhere about clothing. I can't imagine blue jeans, but if it works for you...I am still trying to find "safari" clothing that works for me, in terms of pockets, weight, color, etc. Still looking, will check out Saeed's Sportif recommendation.

I was hunting Matetsi one time and a PH named, I believe, Hilton Nichol (?) was also in camp. A nice man with huge experience hunting jumbo. Eventually he left to take a client hunting somewhere. The guys guiding had told me that they preferred their clients to lung shoot the ele .. it would run a ways and then topple over. Huge target the lungs .. Hilton came back a week or so later and told us that he and his client had gotten within 40 or 60 yards on the broadside jumbo and he told the chap to take it when ready .. The man fired and the bull tore off out of there. Hilton said, ' Shot was good?' .. More of a statement than a question as the bull was so close .. The client told him that he wasn't sure .. or whatever .. On the second day when they quit tracking the elephant .. the tracker went 18 km back for the vehicle .. and the man was out his $10,000 trophy fee ... That sad story aside ... my philosophy has changed a bit over the years .. I now feel that if I put a slug into an animal I am the one responsible for its demise .. and while I don't really want anyone else to shoot it .. it is going to die .. and it is my trophy,,the story just ended a bit quicker.