Anyone have first hand experience with A-Sq. ammo in .375? Softs and solids.
I would like to hear pro and con. Plainsgame and Buff.
Frank

A square ammo was the Zim parks service official ammo for more than a decade.

Solids- Pro- No danger of them bending, riveting or other funny stuff
Con- you can see a fair chunk of your rifling going down range with every shot! Barrel life using a square ammo was short. In some of the Garands as low as 250rnds (Mike LaGrange used 30-06 solids for culling elephant)- in .458 barrel ife was arround 500 rnds.

Dead Tough- Good soft

Lion Load- Never use this on Lion! Perfect for leopards.

Excellent. Thank you for the information.
Frank

I have never used A-Square ammo but didn't realize barrel life was so short. 250-500 rounds is not very good!

I did hear of some rumblings about the "lion load" being too soft. Any stories on that?

I use A-Square in .338 soft and solid and .458 in soft and solid. Very accurate and hits very hard. Softs and solids accurate to the same point of aim. Getting the ammo can be a chore. I am having a Lott built and just sent an email to A-Square regarding a custom lower velocity load. I do not know if I will get a reply, nor if they are still in business.

I chrono three rounds of every box of ammo prior to hunting. A-Square has been very consistent and always a few fps above the advertised speed.

OK , First comment is that the solids from A square , that I have used worked excellently,

And now I want too hi jack this thread slightly, due too Ganyana's comment on barrel life,

I have for sometime voiced my ? about monolithic solids, here in South Africa , I had a metallurgist from our local University, telling us that they had tested the abrasive factor of brass compared too copper coated steel solids and copper solids,

They claimed that the abrasive factor for brass was 25 times more than copper or steel ?

I have heard from various other hunters about the barrel wear with mono solids, and they alos declared 450 - 550 rounds in 458, now guys that is just wasy stupid in my opinion to even think about mono metal solids

Would someone with the necessary qualifiactions please comment

I also would like to read something about barrel life regarding the Monlithic solid---and not the usual crap obtained second hand or more urban legends. It would seem that brass would have a rockwell hardness well below stainless steel. I have not noticed any barrel problems in my magazine .338 rifle(stainless)nor my double in .458(fluid steel). Please, no ranting---is there a metallurgist in the house?

We can get Gerard on here. I will send him an email.

FWIW,
Frankford Arsenal and other 'military arsenals' making ammo for the airplanes, choppers, for example, ran tests to see how long barrel life was. Different ball game as the barrels were firing fully automatic and were armor piercing in many instances. They were scratching their heads when the barrel was almost worn out, it got more accurate, or so I've been told.

Speed is what kills barrels early in life when shooting. Stainless steel make the most accurate barrel because they machine better (smoother) than steel. Just my 2 cents.

Frank,

Check out some of the reviews at the Midway site:

http://www.midwayusa.com/esearch.exe/search?search_keyw...elector=all_products

A Square has suffered from issues ranging from poor customer service to quality issues. And there are more than a few members here, myself included, who have had negative experiences with them in the past.

I had issues with A-Square's brass in my .416 Rigby being very hard to extract (too soft) after firing. Spoke with Sterling Davenport who built the rifle and several on this forum who told me to avoid the ammo as they have had problems with it in the past. I have and have never had problems with any other brands I have used in that particular rifle (Federal and Norma). Sticky extraction is not a problem you want in a DGR!

According to Thunderbird Ctg company in Phoenix, AZ, they have the patent for and made A-Square solids.

you can buy these same solids today from TCCI.

I used 465 grain 458 at 2550 fps on elephant.

They did not "lead" my barrel like the Barnes X did.

According to their patent, the TCCI or A Square are made from "free machining brass," the composition of which is well known.

TCCI will give you some data on their tests of 50 caliber Browning ammo made from free machining brass that proved excellent barrel life.

I wonder if poor barrel life was due to prevous use of Garand, corrosive primers, or poor quality control on dimensions of bullet?

My TCCI were uniform and accurate for what it is worth but I have only put 600 rounds through my rifle with all makes of bullets. Probably 100 TCCI and newer A square solids.

Andy

Kwan
Not a metal man- Humble ecologist only

On different monos'. Our official ammo was A Square, unfortunately we didn't have ammo for all calibers. No 9,3x62, .404 or .425W-R.

I therefore had a bunch turned up out of more or less pure copper. These were flat nosed "grooved or Banded" bullets like barnes uses now (except this was 15 years back- see one of the first editions of Zimbabwe hunter mag) When Art Alphin and I were siting dissecting elephants after the culls looking at bullet performance I had liked the flat nosed bullets Art tried better than the round nosed. I also tried turning some grooves in his bullets and pressures appeared lower with no loss in velocity.

I do not know if it was the softer material (copper) or the grooves that made the difference but I probably fired 2-3000 rnds in my issue 9,3 and several of the .404's and .425's fired many hundreds of rounds with no issues (and they were old worn rifles to begin with).

Took one of the A square bullets to a lab to have it anylised. The A square bullets are basically Bronz rather than brass. 55% Copper c42% Tin and the remainder silicone and iron.

My understanding is that Bronz is harder than brass. In talking to Randy Brooks at Barnes, they have devoted considerable effort to find the best balance between minimal distortions and minimum barrel wear. They have tried a wide veriety of Brass alloys and an equally wide range of heat treatments!

Did those copper "solids" deform - Yes. Did they always penetrate straight - funnily enough -yes. I suspect the slight mushrooming of the nose stopped them tumbling or deviating much.

Yokon - I know personally of only one person who has ever tried to stop a charging lion with an A sqare lion load. It is a very funny story - if you listen to the tracker/parks game scout's version (which is very different from the PH's version ) Basically when all was said and done and the screaming had subsided. A .458 Win Lion load failed to make it through the chest muscles on a chargin lion at about 4 yards range.

There were several disapointed people who tried lion loads on the larger plains game.

For those who haven't read the "failed to stop" story in magnum or here on the forum- here it is again.

French client took a shot at a large lion in Charisa Safari area early one morning from a blind. He hit the lion in the jaw. This really anoyed the lion who proptly turned and charged the blind. The client took one look at the incomming cat and departed the scene.

The PH waited until the lion was only a few yards off and pumped a .458 right into the centre of its chest. This failed to impress the lion who cme straight through the light brush and hessian that formed the front of the blind and landed on top of the PH bowling him out of his chair.

The lion stood on top of the PH and roared at him (he couldn't bite due to the broken jaw). Since 500lbs of angy kitty (with it's claws out) was not only standing on him, but was, more to the point- standing on his testicles, the PH roared back.

This went on for some time whilst the tracker collected the clients rifle, persuaded him to get out of the tree and come back and shoot the lion off the boss.

eventually the client gets into possition and makes a perfect shot...and the lion collapses ontop of the PH - who now cannot breath and is rapidly turning blue. Tracker has some difficulty explaining to one very happy and excited client - in broken english (and the client didn't speak much english either) why they needed to get the lion off the boss!

No actual damage done and after a couple of weeks the PH's voice fell a few octaves back to it's normal level

Must say I liked the performance of one of Saeeds Walterhog hollowpoints on a lion taken last year. Planning on trying some TSX's out of the .416 this year.

There has always been the controversy around solids made from brass/bronze. We make all our bullets, solids as well, from copper. There are two reasons: No barrel life issues and better terminal performance. Brass/bronze is easier to machine, cutting tools last longer and, as a raw material it is easier to obtain and cheaper. If we were convinced that using bronze/brass would result in a better bullet, we would use it immediately. The deformation or set back of the nose, seen on some recovered turned copper FN bullets, is intentional and improves terminal performance. Nicks and dents on recovered FN bullets do not influence linear penetration. In our opinion, anything harder than copper simply wears out barrels faster.

The requirement that a solid be in reloadable condition (except for the rifling marks) after being used on a game animal is nonsensical and one of those statements in the "urban legend" category. One wonders who first coined the phrase. It is in the same inane class as: "How can you say the bullet failed? These 24 bullet fragments that total 30% weight retention was recovered from a dead animal. At which point in the death of the animal did the bullet fail?"

quote:

The requirement that a solid be in reloadable condition (except for the rifling marks) after being used on a game animal is nonsensical and one of those statements in the "urban legend" category

Funny enough, We recovered a Barnes Super Solid brass bullet from an elephant I shot. It was a 400 grain 416 caliber bullet.

I took it home, and turned it down to 375, and used to to kill another elephant with.

This time it whizzed through his skull on a side brain shot, and he dropped in his tracks!

Walter wants to beat this feat. He is working on using the same PRIMER to shoot 2 animals!??

I asked him the other day how his plans are coming along.

He said "Just wait and see!"

Saeed,

Using that bullet on 2 elephants was a neat trick.

So, he wants to use a primer twice? It can be done but the 2nd time won't have good results. There is some truth to mind over matter...if Walter is using his mind it won't matter!

Thank you all for the great info.
It is good to know where to "place the faith" when trying to select and decide upon a particular bullet or component.
Frank

Having shot several blacktail deer on Kodiak with .375 Lion loads and seeing the near cantalope-sided exit on broadside chest shots (it's desireable to not have bleeding deer run into the alders- they drop on the spot- where Alaska's big brown fuzzies live) I tried, under excellent condtions, the .505 Gibbs with Lion loads on cape buffalo. I've shot two, one at about ten yards and the second at about forty, with 525 grain Lion loads. Both were broadside shots passing through the atria, shredding the heart and lungs. The bullet recovered from the forty-yard bull was recovered on the inside of the opposite chest wall, expanded to the size of a silver dollar. Only flakes of lead and shards of thin copper were found in the ten-yard bull. Both were instant kills with nothing but froth in the chest cavities. The hearts were ruptured. I'm not promoting the use of these projectiles but simply relating experience for what it's worth.

I had great success with the A-square .458 (465 gr.)for DG. All three loads shot to the same point of aim in my Rem.700. The lion load did great work on a Lion frontal shot at 86 yds and stopped on the back side after devastating the Lion who only made it 35 yds. before dropping. The recovered bullet definately gave up its energy and shredded everything internally.
The same results on leopard through both shoulders at 47 yds. and he dropped dead below tree. Bullet passed through both shoulders and exited. The solid and dead tough soft point worked well on Cape Buffalo and Giraffe. I would not hesitate to use the 465 gr. solid on Elephant. Cabelas carries this ammunition.
Robert

Here are recovered A-Square bullets from elephant, buffalo and leopard (posted from Don Heath's collection by his request).

I just finished making up a Bad Boy in 470 Capstick for a customer. We had to redo the headspace because the 470 A Square ammo would not chamber (easily)..whereas other brands of brass (from my stock on hand in misc magnum rounds) chambered fine. In other words, the belt dimension on the A Square brass was at max or possibly over.

Thanks all for the information. I have some .375 on the way and will test in my rifle just to see that everything is working as it should.
I will let you know.
Frank

Kwan,

I'm a retired metallurgist, but I will take a crack at the barrel wear problem. Room temperature hardness or abrasion measurements may not detail what is happening in micro-seconds and at high temperature in the rifle barrel.

My best guess is that since Cu-Zn alloys have a lower melting temperature (MP temps which move toward the eutectic temp as a function of composition), they may be microscopic subsurface melting of the bullet. This may allow the brass to attack the prior austenitic grain boundaries and lath martensite boundaries. In addition the barrel surface may be subject to a micro-fretting mechanism leading to progressive wear during firing.

To prove this would require extensive election microscope and chem microanalysis of surface substrates and boundary erosion-attack.

Of course, the problem does not warrant this type of study unless Saeed wants to finance this work,

Bear in mind there are mechanisms at work here not well understood, eg, pure Cu is poor in machining, is subject to galling, and will Cu coat the barrel, etc, etc, requiring extensive cleaning after a 30-50 rounds. Is the Cu galling protecting the surface of the barrel???

Dak

quote:

A Square has suffered from issues ranging from poor customer service to quality issues. And there are more than a few members here, myself included, who have had negative experiences with them in the past.

This,also,has been my experence with them....never again!!!

Fortunately Midway has the ammo for $69 and they have been great from my experiences.
Frank