What does the .375 Ultra (or the rest) offer over the old .H&H, in practical hunting situations?

I shoot a Ackley Improved at 100 to 150 fps above the H&H. Trajectory is the primary benefit I get. I don't find the recoil bad comparted to the 378 Weatherby. I get 2700-2800fps out of 300 gr bullets and 2950-3000fps out of GS Customs 270 gr bullets.

It shoots very accurately and, after 500+ rounds shot in the last 6 month, one of my favorite rifles to shoot.

Good Hunting
Steve

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Every man dies, but not every man really lives!!

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JR

Uh-oh, I should warn you, some guys don't like to hear the truth here. You might become as unpopular as me! LOL.

The ammo availability is also an issue. You can find H&H ammo anywhere in the world (where legal). Goodluck finding .378 Weatherby.

Plus its just plain fun hunting with a 90 year old cartridge. That sexy long case just shouts "BIG GAME".
BB

Chris Long

Good Hunting
Steve

Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!

Sarge

What is your load?

Good Hunting
Steve

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JR

If you feel the need to flatten an already good trajectory and use more powder to achieve the same velocity, and then even more powder to increase it that is your choice. The long slow taper of this case is the reason for it's dependable success for feeding and extraction. Changing that to an improved version you lose part of the original intent and design for dependability. Again up to the user to decide his needs.

My rifle shoots 270 grian bullets handloaded or Hornady factory loads at 2850fps and I have used these loads in dozens of 375HH rifles with not the slightest sign of pressure. My rifle also shoots 300 grain bullets over 2600fps with ease. I have not gone higher as I have never seen the need for that bullet weight to hit any harder than it does. Complete pass through on buffalos when hit in the shoulder is difficult to improve on with another hundred fps or so. With solids I think you will find it difficult to keep them inside from most angles. Faster bullets don't make that better for me.

I think the original 375 Weatherby is likely the best option if a guy decides to improve on his 375HH as the HH ammo will shoot out of it. There was a period of my life where this seemed like a good idea to me. I fortunately came to my senses though and left well enough alone.

The additional velocity will not improve the needs I have for this rifle. Remember though I also sold a 300 weatherby and replaced it with a 30/06 so velocity has never really made a great impression on me from a bullet performance standpoint. Nor has it ever made a trajectory improvment for me out to the 300-350 yard ranges I shoot as a personal limit.

For those that want a flatter shooting rifle to reach way out there, then the improved versions may be the ticket. Remember to use the best bullets money can buy though because that additional velocity will really put the pressure on your projectiles at close range. jj

The so-called improvements are only sales gimmics, IMO, excepting the 375 WSM that I'm sure is on the way. Far be it from me to tell anyone else what rifle they must use for any purpose. That is a personal choice, I do think, however, the fact that it requires additional money/powder to get the same velocity,and even more to get any percieved advantage, that can only be measured by a cronograph, that means absolutely nothing to an animal hit by said "IMPROVED" offering. The old 375 H&H, being developed in 1912,is not 19th century ballistics, as RWJ claims, but is a 20th century development, just like his 378 WBY, brought out in 1953, only 41 years later. The 375 H&H was never offered in black powder form, and 2550 fps with a 300 gr bullet is certainly not 19th century ballistics. The 378 WBY has taken 41 years to gain 250 fps with a 300 gr bullet, requireing 41 grs more powder to get. A gain that is only possible with the use of a very long free-bore, and This coupled with the fact that 2550 fps with a 300 gr bullet will pennetrate better than the same bullet at 2700 and the WBY round only shoots 1" flatter than the H&H, at 200 yds. I submit there is not one person that can hold that close at 200 yds under hunting conditions, and the animals hunted with a 375 are not going to know the difference, since the gain in velocity only increases shock, something large animals are not effected by, for the most part.

When you get to the animals that require the use of the 375 H&H, to gain any noticeable killing, or stopping power, one must go up in DIAMETER, AND WEIGHT of the bullet, not faster with the same weight bullet. The animals that justify a 375 or larger bullet, are not effected much by shock, and that is all that is gained by boosting the velocity . The 375 Improved only gains 100 fps gain at best,in a hunting rifle, but requires a lot more powder to get it, and like the 375 WBY Mag, looses the feeding advantage of the oregenal case design. Neither ever got off the ground,with most hunters, because of this lack of real improvement.

The one new cartridge that might have some value is the soon to come out 375 WSM. It will produce almost all the velocity of the 375 H&H, which is ideal, but do it in a short action rifle!

I'm just one of those folks that believes "IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT" and the 375 H&H doesn't need fixing!

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..Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY DESIGNS
Collector/trader of fine double rifles, and African wildlife art

The real thing you loose is that the tapered case is one of the smoothest feeding rounds there is.

So what it really comes down to is personal preference. Without that the need for many Magnums doesn't exist. Many of the improvements are percieved.

Another example of this is in the first 300 Mag, the 300 H&H hasn't really been improved upon. It like the 375 H&H fed better that the Improveds. But there was a perceived need and with this being a hobby/sport of personal preference along came the various 300 Magnums.

For years everyone thought that any long range rifle case had to have a belt at the base. Now with the advent of the Ultra Magnums everyone thinks that there shouldn't be a belt.

In the 1950 several gunsmiths/barrel makers, John Buhmiller, Les Bauska and Earl Jackson tried to convience Roy Weatherby that the belt should not be on the 378 Weatherby (and other Weatherby cases) and that the case should be built on the Rigby case. They believed that the case should headspace on the shoulder instead of the belt. It only took 40 years for the manufacturers to start believing that.

Good Hunting
Steve

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Every man dies, but not every man really lives!!

Easy to reload and case life is good.

Inherent velocity gives excellent barrel life.

Easy feeding & extraction.

Performs well at ranges I use and recoil is more than manageable.

Just a damned friendly and versatile cartridge.

Nothing wrong with the hotrod .375s for those who want them, but I'll stay with the original.

Regards,

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~Holmes

"Those who appease a tiger do so in the hope that the tiger will eat them last."
-Winston Churchill

Thank you for posting this question.

I prefer to shoot a bullet with a sectional density of .340 for serious African animals. In the .375" cartridges that's a 335 grain bullet. A 375 Holland and Holland case has too little capacity for this weight bullet. The 375 Weatherby, the 375 Ackley Improved, the 375 RUM all have the needed capacity.

But, the 375 H&H has been around too long to even think of having hunters choose another, better .375" cartridge over it.

Good Hunting !

[This message has been edited by Pumba (edited 08-04-2001).]

I think the 375 H&H is such an entrenched caliber, that success for another 375 offering would be extremely limited.

If these forums are any guide, there seems to be plenty of activty with the 338 RUM but none at all with the 375 RUM.

Mike

quote:

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Originally posted by Santala:
Oldsarge if you are getting 2700 fps out of a 300 gr bullet in 375 H&H you have the fastest barrel I have ever heard of or are shooting at over 70,000 PSI.

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In my own 375 H&H -- a Remington 700 Limited Classic with a 24 in. barrel -- I get 2740 to 2770 f.p.s from the 300 gr. Sierra boattail bullet using 81.5 gr. of H4350 (Hodgdon's top listed load for this powder and bullet weight), WW cases, and Winchester WLR (non-magnum) primers. I load to an overall length of 3.72 inches. 80.5 gr of the same powder, all else the same, gives me 2720 to 2730 f.p.s.

Using the 270 gr. Speer bullet and 83 gr. of H4350 (again, Hodgdon's top load), all else the same, gives me 2811 f.p.s.

Using 80.5 gr of H4350 and the Hornady 300 gr. FMC bullet, loaded to an overall length so that the case can be crimped on the bullet groove, gave me 2620 f.p.s.

In no instance did I see evidence of too-high pressures with these loads (flattened primers, tight bolt lift, etc.).

All these velocities were chronographed 15 ft. from the rifle muzzle, with a chronograph that is accurate (it doesn't read high with other rifles and bullet weights).

[This message has been edited by LE270 (edited 08-04-2001).]

Carcano

[This message has been edited by carcano91 (edited 08-04-2001).]

I'd really like to hear Saeed's opinion here. It was while watching his Zim video I thought about the original question, since he was using a cartridge very similar to a .375 Ultra Mag, and Ultra mags may be the most prevelant of the "alternative" magnums.

In any case, there is some pretty decent discussion on this topic going on!

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JR

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JR

AD

How do you get 83 grains of 4350 into an H & H case then seat a 270 grain bullet over it? Even fairly heavily compressed, I can't get quite than much in (fired) cases over a 250 Sierra, using a powder drop tube at that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Stonecreek:
How do you get 83 grains of 4350 into an H & H case then seat a 270 grain bullet over it? Even fairly heavily compressed, I can't get quite than much in (fired) cases over a 250 Sierra, using a powder drop tube at that.

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Well, note that this is HODGDON 4350, not IMR 4350. And it's a recent lot of H4350 that I bought sometime in the second half of 2000. (Sorry, I don't have the lot number, although I could get it if anyone really needs it.) Although it does not have the SC (short cut) designation, this powder does have shorter cut granules than IMR 4350.

If you go to p. 21 of Hodgdon's phamphlet, "Basic Reloaders Manual 2000," you will see that 83.0 is listed as a compressed max load for a 270 gr. bullet in the 375 H&H. I've loaded this load numerous times, and it is admittedly a heavily compressed load, but it works for me. (I always weigh each individual load, with a RCBS 505 scale.)

On January 15, 2001, I shot a four-shot string of this load -- 270 gr. Speer
BT, 83 gr. of H4350, Winchester Case, WLR primer, 3.72" overall length. The velocities were 2880, 2873, 2877, and 2876. The 100-yard group measured 1.59"

On the same day I shot a 3-shot group with the 300 gr. Sierra BT bullet and 81.5 gr of H4350, all else the same. The velocities were 2789, 2778, and 2780, and the group measured 1.40" The temperature that day was 40 degrees F and there was a heavy mist in the air.

On January 24, 2001 I again went to the range and shot the 270 gr. Speer bullets. That day my loads were 82 gr. of H4350, all else the same. My first 3-shot group that day had velocities of 2791, 2802, and 2776, and the group measured 0.75" My second 3-shot group that day had velocities of 2802, 2813, and 2816, and the group measured 0.90" Actually, in that latter group, two shots were in the same hole, and the third was 0.90 inch away.

My best group with the 270 Speer bullet was shot on January 29, 2001. That day my loads were again with 83 gr. of H4350, and the velocities of my 3-shot group were 2811, 2811, and 2822. The group measured 0.47 inch. (All shooting mentioned here was at 100 yards.)

My Remington 700 Limited Classic 375 H&H rifle with which all this shooting was done, has a Leupold M8 4 power (fixed power) scope on it in Leupold QR mounts.

[This message has been edited by LE270 (edited 08-07-2001).]