Is it any wonder that Karl has had a falling out with his dog handlers?

WINDHOEK – The Namibia Professional Hunting Association (Napha) wants the Ministry of Environment and Tourism to place a moratorium on leopard and cheetah trophy hunting permits for 2010.

According to Napha, 2010 can be used to put effective leopard and cheetah trophy hunting control mechanisms in place.

The association has elected a Predator Hunting Committee comprising Karl Stumpfe, Danie van Ellewee, Zane Cooper, Andre Swanepoel and Johan Kotze to work on the drawing-up and implementation of effective hunting control mechanisms.

Members of the Napha executive will also serve on the committee.

Namibia stopped issuing hunting permits for leopards and cheetahs because it has exceeded its export quotas.

The Ministry of Environment and Tourism placed moratoria on hunting permits of the two species for this year – on April 24 for cheetahs and June 15 for leopards.

The 2009 Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species’ (CITES) export quotas for leopard and cheetah are 250 and 150 respectively.

This means that the permit office will not issue any more permits for the duration of the current hunting season, which ends in November.

Napha in supporting this move called an urgent special general meeting of members last month to discuss the challenges currently facing leopard and cheetah hunting in Namibia.

Napha said in a statement recently the organisation has noted that there are increasing reports of alleged unscrupulous, unethical and illegal hunting practices often involving unregistered and unqualified persons posing as hunting professionals.

“The executive committee was of the opinion that urgent action was required in order to secure the future of the Namibian trophy hunting industry as well as the reputation of Namibia as a destination for fair chase and ethical trophy hunting,” said Napha.

To secure the future of trophy hunting in Namibia, the organisation agreed to request the ministry to temporarily suspend leopard hunting with hounds with immediate effect and not to issue leopard and cheetah trophy hunting permits for 2010.

Napha said hunting leopard in 2009 would continue as planned, provided the outfitter or hunting professional has a valid permit.

“The Namibia Professional Hunting Association advises all trophy hunters arriving in Namibia that it is essential to make sure that their outfitter, hunting guide or professional hunter is in possession of an original Namibian Ministry of Environment and Tourism trophy hunting permit,” it said.

The permit must specify name of client, name of hunting guide or PH who will personally guide the client throughout the hunt, valid date and the huntable species.

From "New Era" newspaper website, 8/12/09

I think that this goes exactly with what Karl said about the large amount of people taking cats illegally. Something has to be done before cat hunting is ruined in Namibia. It looks like a good idea to get PH's on the committee to draft the plan for future cat management.

quote:

Namibia stopped issuing hunting permits for leopards and cheetahs because it has exceeded its export quotas.

Hunting with dogs by no means makes getting a Leopard a certainty, but it does drastically improve the odds. I suspect that is why the quota has been filled. Karl is doing the right thing for hunting in Namibia, but it may not be the right thing for the dog handlers!
Peter.

I'm have no opposition to banning, at least temporarily, the hunting of leopards with dogs; however it does potentially explain some of the friction Mr. Stumpfe apparantly has run into with some dog handlers formerly in his employ as indicated in Tim Herald's thread in the African Hunting Reports category.

It would have been interesting to have had this information when the Tim Herald thread was unfolding last week. Since there was no mention of it, it appears that Tim Herald was unaware. It might also help explain Stumpfe's sudden disinterest in having a leopard hunt with dogs filmed for TV, him knowing that such hunting was about to be banned, most particularly since he was part of the committee making the recommendations.

This story just gets curiouser and curiouser.

I give Karl alot of credit here for putting the Leopards welfare ahead of his own benefit.
Good for you Karl!

In Tim's post, it indicated Karl hunted leopard illegally at night. That's not really putting the leopard's welfare ahead of his own.

There is a Latin saying, "rules are for your enemies." If less leopard are hunted with dogs, there will be more for Karl to hunt at night.

It appears people like Karl have their knickers in a twist. It appears with using a pack of hounds the sucess rate goes up and the quotas are filled quicker, thus no hunts left for the late season. I know Norman Crooks of Pro Safaris Africa in Zim hunts Namabia with a pack and I am sure this does not set well with NPHA. The NPHA is only carry their own water, which I can not object to, but to attribute altrustic motives is just plain BS. It sounds nice to couch your argument as "looking out for the Leopard".

Just because someone is on the committe does not mean that they agree with the committe's recommendation. The vote could have been 3 to 2, or 4 to 1. I am not saying that is the case (as I was not there), but I was told while in Namibia that if there was a ban on leopard hunts with dogs, hunts with dogs would still be conducted and sold under the name of "problem animal" hunts, which means they can be taken by any means. A landowner can basically declare any cat a problem by saying it killed a calf or sheep, then to my understanding they have 3 days to call it in after it is killed. The only hang up on this system is that the cats will not be exportable. So there is obviously a huge loophole to be exploited if the current regulations are not changed, even with a "ban" on dogs and trophy permits.

Tim: If I recall correctly, the leopard hunt you intended to film was a hunt with dogs, correct? Had you been able to successfully film such a hunt, and this method of hunting were subsequently banned, wouldn't the potential benefit to the outfitter of publicity via television be significantly lessened, or even negated entirely. How would ESPN regard running a show that detailed a now-banned method of hunting? Would they even consider purchasing such a show for airing?

I don't know the answers to these questions and can't say whether this had any bearing on the poor experience you had in attempting to conduct and film such a hunt, but the circumstances would seem to provide a nexus between your unsatisfactory experience and the contemporaneous (or pending) ban on hunting with dogs. After all, Stumpfe's incentive to provide you with a discounted hunt might have evaporated with the ban.

Stonecreek,

Yes my hunt was to be with dogs, and I would guess that if dog hunting was banned, the show would not have had the promotional value for Karl that it would have had with no ban.
I can't answer some of the questions. I don't know what the ESPN guys would do or not do, but they weren't buying the footage from me. They sent their production guy with me, so they would have had it regardless. My thought is that they would have run it as it was a legal means to hunt at the time it was filmed and because I had a commitment to Karl to air it. They honour our commitments.

Also, the meeting where this committe decided on their recommendation was not until July 31st, and I was home on the 23rd. So no one knew what the recommendation would be at that point.

It is also my understanding (and I may be wrong) that at this point, the recommendation by NAPHA is just that. It is only a recommendation until or if MET adopts it and does indeed ban dog hunting this year and trophy hunting in 2010. Afterall - eyedoc was still able to hunt his leopard with Karl and dogs after the 7/31 meeting and recommendation- I think (not stating that as fact).

It is only speculation, but I honestly don't think that the possibility of the ban was the cause of my situation. It may have weighed in, or it could have been the reason, your point makes sense, but I don't really think it was much of a factor.

It amazes me how there are so many sudden commentries by people who live far away, have nothing to do with the committees and the decisions being made and are generally relying on their own assumptions and deductions.....

Once again a virtual trial by internet experts

Sorry Scott450, I forgot the only thing we (hunters ouside Africa) can bring to the party is our MONEY!

Not at all DOJ but some here are rather quick to criticize and pronounce judgement without all the facts and seem to be cynical about almost everyone and everything in the African safari business.

Tim
Just to be clear, did you hear that Karl would still sell hunts with dogs or that he felt that others would still sell hunts with dogs?

quote:

criticize and pronounce judgement

Scott the only person who seems to be criticizing is Stonecreek. Most of the other comments (including mine) are supportive of whatever contributes to sustainable ethical hunting. Do you see it otherwise?
peter.

The task they're faced with seems to be bordering hurculean!! Taking into consideration all the factors that go into managing a predatory species in all forms of harvest in a third world country have challenges I'm sure beyond most of our comprehension. Before we crucify all we might want to wait and see, so we may actually know what we're talking about.

Brett

Terry,

I don't want to go into further detail on it so as to not open up another can of worms on myself. When I quote things said to me, I get hammered for "hearsay", so I will obstain.

My point really was that there is a way for dog hunters to continue hunting leopards with dogs if they so desire under the current reg.s as described to me while in Namibia. The cats just wouldn't be importable. My post wasn't saying that Karl would or would not conduct these hunts. He can answer that question, as it will be a personal decision for each PH - and as the regs read right now, I guess it would be legal.

Just an amateur butting in, but I hunted leopard twice in Zim over bait. The second hunt I cut short. Just too boring. I hunted with hounds in Namibia and took my tom on day 10 of a 10 day hunt. It was one of the most exciting and physically demanding hunts I've ever done. Based on that experience alone, hunting over hounds seems to be far more sporting than dry-gulching poor Chui.

The association has elected a Predator Hunting Committee comprising Karl Stumpfe, Danie van Ellewee, Zane Cooper, Andre Swanepoel and Johan Kotze to work on the drawing-up and implementation of effective hunting control mechanisms.

Guys the decision was made by members of NAPHA that attended this special meeting, the committee members is only going to draw up suggestions its not to say that they will be accepted by the rest of the members or MET.
Leopard with hounds has been getting a lot of bad press lately because of injuries to dogs, trackers and hunters and hunt complaints.

Napha said in a statement recently the organisation has noted that there are increasing reports of alleged unscrupulous, unethical and illegal hunting practices often involving unregistered and unqualified persons posing as hunting professionals.

Namibia is currently facing a big problem with outfitters / PH's from other Southern African countries offering and conducting hunts in Namibia which bottom line is illegal. The law clearly states that only a person who are registered with the Namibian Ministry of Wildlife and Tourism and successfully completed their hunting exams can LEGALLY accompany any trophy hunter in Namibia be it plains or dangerous game.

How about this for a shocker: Skins of Leopard shot in South Africa are smuggled into Namibia where a its added to a permit here and exported from Namibia filling up the Namibia quota???

“The Namibia Professional Hunting Association advises all trophy hunters arriving in Namibia that it is essential to make sure that their outfitter, hunting guide or professional hunter is in possession of an original Namibian Ministry of Environment and Tourism trophy hunting permit,” it said.

How many of you have asked your PH to show you the hunt permit and checked that the information on the hunt permit is actually correct?
Did you check that you had a valid Leopard permit issued before the hunt?

This is not about any one person or just Leopard and hounds, NAPHA's members are trying to save Namibia's reputation as a ethical hunting destination.

I had the opportunity to hunt with Dani Van Ellewe back in May of 08 on his ranch for PG. He had mentioned to me about getting in his own dogs and getting some pups from Spain to train. As a person Dani is a stand up guy, and will work hard to get your trophies. I'm not surprised he is willing to look at the welfare of the cats as a whole.

Roger,

One thing I can say for you is that within an hour of being in your camp, you had all our licenses and permits out, went over every bit of it with us and showed us what we could shoot, how many, and provided all information so we knew everything was completely legal. I have only been to Africa 4 times, but you are the only one who has ever done that with me. Thank you!

quote:

Scott the only person who seems to be criticizing is Stonecreek. Most of the other comments (including mine) are supportive of whatever contributes to sustainable ethical hunting.

Criticizing? I offered no critique of the proposed dog ban, only the observation that Mr. Stumpfe is involved and the circumstances might relate to Tim Herald's problems (or might not). I raised questions, which Tim Herald is understandably reluctant to delve too deeply into due to his pending settlement with Mr. Stumpfe.

I think one thing is clear: The promotional value to Mr. Stumpfe of Mr. Herald's television filming was something less subsequent to the ban than it was when the arrangement was first negotiated. The ban, which could conceivably have had some bearing on the conduct of the Herald hunt, was never mentioned in the eight pages of the thread criticizing the hunt. My purpose in posting the newspaper article was twofold: Inform African hunters of changing circumstances in Namibia, and raise the question of whether the ban might be related to the problems Tim Herald encountered. I have offered no critcism of the effort to ban leopard hunting with dogs; this is a decision which should be left to professional game managers and biologists with the health of the cat population and its sustainable use as the priorities.

I can see both sides of this issue, but I would love to hunt a leopard with dogs. Not because of the higher success rate, I just love hunting with dogs. I had coon dogs back (way back!) when I was in high school and that is still some of the most fun I have ever had hunting.

I believe that everyone would agree that in order to continue to hunt leopard they must be carefully managed. I applaud NAPHA efforts to ensure future leopard hunting in Namibia. Since hunting with dogs is more successful than bait hunting, I wonder if this is more of an economic or political recommendation on the part of the committee? Without dogs, there will be more leopard hunts conducted each year as less of the hunts will be successful. Perhaps NAPHA is feeling pressure as some think hound hunting is unethical? Certainly there are many issues, but it would seem that the illegal activity must be reduced as much as possible and then do not exceed the annual CITES quota. I personally believe that hound hunting is an honorable method of hunting predators and very selective and I hope that Namibia and the MET continue to allow it.

Just to clear confusion up:
A Special General Meeting, by a quorum of NAPHA members, voted and decided to ASK THE AUTHORITIES TO SUSPEND DOG HUNTING FOR THE MOMENT.
This same meeting later on selected a committee to work on all the leopard and cheetah issues.
I was selected to this committee, irrespective on my stand on dog hunting, which for the record, I prefer to blind hunting.
All this happened long after Tim's hunt, and had no influance on how his hunt turned out.
So the title of this whole post is misleading, untrue, and again full of speculation by someone that does not have most of the facts.

quote:

Originally posted by Lhook7:
I can see both sides of this issue, but I would love to hunt a leopard with dogs. Not because of the higher success rate, I just love hunting with dogs. I had coon dogs back (way back!) when I was in high school and that is still some of the most fun I have ever had hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Karl S:
All this happened long after Tim's hunt, and had no influence on how his hunt turned out.

My understanding is that that NAPHA's effort to ban hunting with dogs was well along at the time of Tim Herald's hunt. I believe if you will check with Mr. Herald he will tell you that he was aware of the impending dog ban while in Namibia. However, Mr. Herald has made no claim that there was a nexus between the impending dog ban and the breech of contract during his hunt. He need not illustrate a motive for non-performance; only that the PH did not perform as promised, whatever the reason.

Mr. Stumpfe's various defenses, claims, and disclaims have become consistently inconsistent. Pardon me if I don't lend high credibility to his most recent post.

Stonecreek,

Look at the heading of your post, and see the reply by two Namibian PH's, then re-think this post a bit....

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
Stonecreek,

Look at the heading of your post, and see the reply by two Namibian PH's, then re-think this post a bit....

The heading is "NAMPA (sic, should read NAPHA), Karl Stumpfe, want ban on dogs for leopards".

1. NAPHA has asked for such a ban.
2. Karl Stumpfe himself says in a post just above that "for the record, I prefer to blind hunting".

What is there to "re-think"?

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

Originally posted by infinito:
Stonecreek,

Look at the heading of your post, and see the reply by two Namibian PH's, then re-think this post a bit....

The heading is "NAMPA (sic, should read NAPHA), Karl Stumpfe, want ban on dogs for leopards".

1. NAPHA has asked for such a ban.
2. Karl Stumpfe himself says in a post just above that "for the record, I prefer to blind hunting".

What is there to "re-think"?

Yes SC, now read Karl's post again, he says he prefers hunting with dogs over hunting in blinds. Kinda makes him sound like a supporter of hunting with hounds.

quote:

originally posted by Karl S: I was selected to this committee, irrespective on my stand on dog hunting, which for the record, I prefer to blind hunting.

I speculate that this issue with Karl and his concern for Namibian leopard hunting in general has much to do with the issue raised by TWL in the "I do have a Namibia Leopard permit!!!" thread (26th post down from the thread http://forums.accuratereloadin...481083211#8481083211) rather than anyting else.