Well, I have never stopped saying what I think is right, because I am afraid of offending anyone.

It seems everyone and his dog is out looking to be offended these.

quote:

Originally posted by boarkiller:

quote:

Originally posted by Jason P:
Arjun and Milan are correct.

I will be respectful to anyone if they show me respect. I will not try to justify or apologize for what I enjoying doing.

And on a side note, I will never use the word ‘harvest’. This is about the dumbest word people use to try to justify killing an animal. Our Grandfathers never used this word.

Jason, I actually tell guys who use the term harvest lots of shit and told few, they are simple pussies
I do not mix words anymore
And people who have problem with hunting?
I tell them I do what I do and I DONT TELL THEM WHAT THEY SHOULD OR SHOULD NOT DO…
I’m done with any kinda explanations

Its called age mate. The older you get the more intolerant you become.

quote:

Its called age mate. The older you get the more intolerant you become.

I like this approach to anti-hunting friends and family. I know none of them are vegan. A couple are "semi-vegetarian". Whatever the hell that means.

Me: Are you vegan?
Them: No, why?
Me: Then you are a hypocrite.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:

quote:

Its called age mate. The older you get the more intolerant you become.

Just like an old dugga boy

Saeed,

Back to your point on "harvesting". There are two subsets of hunters, the "collectors" and the true hunters that hunt for the sake of hunting rather than "harvesting" an animal.

quote:

Originally posted by drongo:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:
Hunting is part of my life, but the actual shooting part is just an incidental part. The main reason for hunting is to get into the wilds and get close and personal with wild animals. Any hunting should be for management purposes where you are taking out surplus animals that are over and above carrying capacity of the ecosystem in which you are hunting, and the focus should be on older, yeld or poorer quality animals. The primary trophy should be the meat - a high value protein, but I think we should also make full use of skins, horns and any other bi products.

And if somebody is prepared to spend their hard earned cash on assisting / participating in such activities then provides good economic support to keeping such areas truly wild.

I am very conscious that living in the UK the vast majority of truly wild areas are former hunting forests for the kings of old. Otherwise all the land is in use for agriculture and yes we have deer, but we have lost all our other natural big animals.

If we want to keep wild areas, they need to be economic, and hunting is one of the few economic activities that has minimal impact if managed properly.

Well said. People ask me why I don’t just take pictures of the game rather than shoot. My response is that I hunt to satisfy my need to get back to my roots as a predator and to experience being an integral part of the food chain. Photographers observe nature but hunters are part of it. Hunting is a much more intense experience.

Thank you. And just writing this after spending from dawn to dusk traipsing around Scottish woodland and open hill ground looking for deer. There was a wee bit of Scotch Mist all day and it got a bit breezy this afternoon. Snow on the ground as well but temp just above freezing*

And I saw a really nice Roe Buck at 50 yards, and four Red Stags when I was sitting under a tree out of the wind and a pair of black grouse, but came home without firing a shot. It’s near the end of the hind season, one of the stags could have been a yearling so could have shot, but it had left its mother and was in the company of three bigger stags so it should make it through the winter.

Could have gone to the supermarket, but instead had Spaghetti bolognaise made from venison that I got earlier in the year.

To most, There is little sense being out in such weather with a couple of good friends. I would have been more productive, perhaps, at my desk. But in the great balance sheet of life, today certainly goes down as one of those positive days.

On the flip side - what the fuck is the purpose of Golf. You take a beautiful pristine part of country, or indeed coastline, you build a bloody great hotel and clubhouse, you manicure the lawns and you all the likes of Mr Trump to walk or drive around in stupid shoes, and multicoloured jumpers withh all the other captains of industry, politics, media and their hangers on trying to hit a tiny little hole with a white ball and improve their handicap. Think of the environmental damage done in the name of Golf and all the prize trophies that they collect. And you can’t even eat them.




*Argyl speak, for pissing down with rain and wind strong enough to blow rocks up hill.

Heym,

Agree with you about golf, although I like watching it.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
hunters that hunt for the sake of hunting

Me ^^^

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Saeed,

Back to your point on "harvesting". There are two subsets of hunters, the "collectors" and the true hunters that hunt for the sake of hunting rather than "harvesting" an animal.

Lavaca -

Interesting discussion. In your mind, can't a collector be a "true hunter" as well?

Would you define someone who wants to hunt all over Africa, for all is plunder, a collector?

At its basis, a psychologist can’t admit that anything is done for a simple reason.

At its basic level, I hunt because I enjoy it.

Frankly, if I wanted validation of my whatever need, there are lots of ways to do so that are a lot less money.

If all I wanted was to kill animals, I’d get a job at an abattoir. They would then pay me for killing things, and it would be a lot less effort.

It’s not the same thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Saeed,

Back to your point on "harvesting". There are two subsets of hunters, the "collectors" and the true hunters that hunt for the sake of hunting rather than "harvesting" an animal.

Lavaca -

Interesting discussion. In your mind, can't a collector be a "true hunter" as well?

Would you define someone who wants to hunt all over Africa, for all is plunder, a collector?

Not pointed at me, but a collector (in my mind) heads afield to check off boxes for the purpose of fulfilling some perceived gain - could be the inner circle, the tiny-ten, big-five, what have you. His hands will shake as he measures the horns to find out whether it “makes book.”

A “true hunter” has a very specific aesthetic in mind when he goes afield. If those internal check boxes are all checked, he pulls the trigger. The tape is of no direct concern - age, the hunt itself, the challenge of a specific animal, etc trump inches.

The collector most often hunts for external reason, the true hunter hunts for internal reasons.

Yes, one could perceive a collector is a true hunter, but then a true hunter would very well never consider themselves a collector because the don’t hunt for a collectively defined reason.

Based on my anecdotal evidence of reading hundreds of books and taking to several older PHs, the hunter who valued every aspect of a hunt, who hunted hard, killed selectively, but never for the sole purpose of meeting some externally defined criteria was always preferred to one who came with a laundry list of animals to kill.

My .02c

Hunter and collector are not mutually exclusive categories.

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Saeed,

Back to your point on "harvesting". There are two subsets of hunters, the "collectors" and the true hunters that hunt for the sake of hunting rather than "harvesting" an animal.

Lavaca -

Interesting discussion. In your mind, can't a collector be a "true hunter" as well?

Would you define someone who wants to hunt all over Africa, for all is plunder, a collector?

Not pointed at me, but a collector (in my mind) heads afield to check off boxes for the purpose of fulfilling some perceived gain - could be the inner circle, the tiny-ten, big-five, what have you. His hands will shake as he measures the horns to find out whether it “makes book.”

A “true hunter” has a very specific aesthetic in mind when he goes afield. If those internal check boxes are all checked, he pulls the trigger. The tape is of no direct concern - age, the hunt itself, the challenge of a specific animal, etc trump inches.

The collector most often hunts for external reason, the true hunter hunts for internal reasons.

Yes, one could perceive a collector is a true hunter, but then a true hunter would very well never consider themselves a collector because the don’t hunt for a collectively defined reason.

Based on my anecdotal evidence of reading hundreds of books and taking to several older PHs, the hunter who valued every aspect of a hunt, who hunted hard, killed selectively, but never for the sole purpose of meeting some externally defined criteria was always preferred to one who came with a laundry list of animals to kill.

My .02c

Fair enough. I will attempt to define myself.

I hunted with one PH, in one area for sometime. Through an internal evolution and hard learned lessons, I decided I wanted to hunt absolutely everything I could in every country, with as many different PH's as possible. In my mind, it gives me a true flavor, if only a taste of what the African continent really has to offer.

At the same time, I will never shoot an animal that will not be mounted "in some manner" maybe just a skull or maybe a full mount and everything in between.

I love to hunt Buffalo. I've killed 20 something and will always partake, when available.

I hunted in three different parts of Africa and soon enough saw that I had three of Africa's four Eland and two of the three Roans. So, I booked a Safari in Tanzania and killed both.

I've never entered an animal in SCI, Boone and Crockett or whatever.

In CAR, I killed a beast of a Roan with Mike Fell. We measured it in camp. It was #8 ALL TIME. Eric Mararv asked me to enter it. I did not because it meant nothing to me.

So, does wanting to "collect" all these species, but not ticking any boxes or looking for a ring, or a slam make me a collector? If it does, It won't ruin my day.

I have had acquaintances in SCI chapters that were, check the box, book the country and compete for rings, tuxedos, inner circle and slams. I find it a bit of a buzz-kill.

Again, that said, I've looked at the African 29 and the North American 29 and have everything in the African 29 and most of the NA 29. I will not hunt certain species due to undesirable locals. The Sheep, I'll likely never hunt all four because I don't see the "dollar vs achievement" as worth it. I can draw a Desert Sheep and a Rocky, here in AZ. If I draw, great if I don't no skin off my nose.

Very well said, Steve! My experience (although not quite as extensive as yours), and my line of thinking as well.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
At its basis, a psychologist can’t admit that anything is done for a simple reason.

At its basic level, I hunt because I enjoy it.

Frankly, if I wanted validation of my whatever need, there are lots of ways to do so that are a lot less money.

If all I wanted was to kill animals, I’d get a job at an abattoir. They would then pay me for killing things, and it would be a lot less effort.

It’s not the same thing.

+1

It’s your money spend it anyway you want too that is legal.

Justifying one’s discretionary consumption/vacation choices for broader social kudos is limited to a very special group of social media celebrities.

I plan to hunt and fish as long as it gives me utility. I don’t care what anyone else thinks cause no one else is giving me the $$$$ to hunt and fish. It’s my money and I plan to spend it in what every way brings me happiness.

And if mark Zuckerberg gives me free hosting I will post pictures of my hunting and fishing that I want too on Facebook and instagram and share it on WhatsApp.

Mike

African 29, North American 29, UK6. Well for a start I haven’t worked hard enough or been lucky enough to have a bank balance to travel all parts of the world for hunting adventures - slightly irritating, but to be honest doesn’t overly bother me. I spent quite a bit of time in the African bush in Zambia at a time when you were pretty unrestricted and coukd just explore. I love being in the wilds and hunting is a very good reason to go into the wilds, but not the only reason. I am actually very happy hunting here in Scotland and fortunate to have quite a bit of variety. And there is lots in Europe to do as well. I would love to the Rockies for an adventure and perhaps take some grouse or a deer or an elk. But also quite happy to just have an adventure. I would love to get close to bears, but not sure if I would want to shoot one. I have hunted lion - it was cattle taking going on no fear of man type lion and that was very very exciting. I was supporting it, the hunter wounded it and we tracked it for two days.

I am probably a confirmed vegan - in that only really want to shoot and eat vegan animals. Predators feel a bit close to home. That’s not saying I disapprove of hunting troublesome or surplus predators, but I am pleased that in many areas their numbers are now viable. I just think we should some big apex predators in Scotland.

But I appreciate that trophy hunting supports many in wild areas, and keeps those areas wild. And I would love to be able to afford multiple safaris in the African bush, but until I can, I will make do with wild spots in North Scotland and have the Northern Lights instead of Southern Cross as I sit around my fire.

Might as well him asked : why do people make love for enjoyment than procreation!

He is an utter IDIOT!

Any study where 100% of the info comes from social media posts, is flawed, no matter the subject.

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:
Any study where 100% of the info comes from social media posts, is flawed, no matter the subject.

Wendell -

I agree completed with your statement. Which is why I just can't understand why so many are willing to argue that posting hero shots on the internet is a good idea for the long term health of international sport hunting.

So many of the folks we are fighting, oppose or even fence sitters, get their total information from the internet.

SMH

Steve and Mike,

I totally agree someone can be a true hunter and a collector at the same time. I just can't be a collector because when I find something I really like, I tend to stick with it. For me, that's buffalo, and cats, and eland ...

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Steve and Mike,

I totally agree someone can be a true hunter and a collector at the same time. I just can't be a collector because when I find something I really like, I tend to stick with it. For me, that's buffalo, and cats, and eland ...

I agree 100%. I love hunting elephants, buffalo, Eland, Elk and Mule Deer. I like hunting other things, but I keep going back to my five favorites.

I hear you guys loud and clear. I have my favorites, too.

Still, I really like hunting new animals, and also hunting in new countries and terrain.

At least, new to me!

A hunter gets to know his quarry and their habits and habitat in a way that non-hunters simply do not.

Ortega perhaps said it best - the hunter is tied through the earth to the animal he pursues.

It's a kind of intimacy. Non-hunters cannot understand it. They are spectators, but hunters are participants, and truly become part of the ecosystem, or as we used to say, part of nature.

As an example, we are looking forward with great excitement to hunting big game in the savanna region of Cameroon next year. It will be an entirely new experience for us, and I'm sure we will learn a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I hear you guys loud and clear. I have my favorites, too.

Still, I really like hunting new animals, and also hunting in new countries and terrain.

At least, new to me!

A hunter gets to know his quarry and their habits and habitat in a way that non-hunters simply do not.

Ortega perhaps said it best - the hunter is tied through the earth to the animal he pursues.

It's a kind of intimacy. Non-hunters cannot understand it. They are spectators, but hunters are participants, and truly become part of the ecosystem, or as we used to say, part of nature.

As an example, we are looking forward with great excitement to hunting big game in the savanna region of Cameroon next year. It will be an entirely new experience for us, and I'm sure we will learn a lot.

Michael-

Your statement about intimacy really hits home with me. I feel that deciding to take the life of game animals is a very itimate event.

I've wounded animals, requiring long, and at times fruitless follow-ups. I've seen how tightly ALL animals cling to life. For these reasons, I take the decision to kill, every time, to heart. It's also the reason why I believe devaluing the life of any animals to just a few megapixels on an SD card to be a shallow one.

My opinion (and mine alone) is that we owe it to the animal to be fully utilized. Whether that utilization is a European, backskin, or some other taxidermy decision. But shooting and leaving the trophy there, something is just missing. After all, It is called "Trophy Hunting". Remove the trophy, its simply killing.

All these issues - intimacy, taxidermy, valuing life are all reasons I think hunting (killing) isn't an activity conducive to sharing online.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I hear you guys loud and clear. I have my favorites, too.

Still, I really like hunting new animals, and also hunting in new countries and terrain.

At least, new to me!

A hunter gets to know his quarry and their habits and habitat in a way that non-hunters simply do not.

Ortega perhaps said it best - the hunter is tied through the earth to the animal he pursues.

It's a kind of intimacy. Non-hunters cannot understand it. They are spectators, but hunters are participants, and truly become part of the ecosystem, or as we used to say, part of nature.

As an example, we are looking forward with great excitement to hunting big game in the savanna region of Cameroon next year. It will be an entirely new experience for us, and I'm sure we will learn a lot.

Michael-

Your statement about intimacy really hits home with me. I feel that deciding to take the life of game animals is a very itimate event.

I've wounded animals, requiring long, and at times fruitless follow-ups. I've seen how tightly ALL animals cling to life. For these reasons, I take the decision to kill, every time, to heart. It's also the reason why I believe devaluing the life of any animals to just a few megapixels on an SD card to be a shallow one.

My opinion (and mine alone) is that we owe it to the animal to be fully utilized. Whether that utilization is a European, backskin, or some other taxidermy decision. But shooting and leaving the trophy there, something is just missing. After all, It is called "Trophy Hunting". Remove the trophy, its simply killing.

All these issues - intimacy, taxidermy, valuing life are all reasons I think hunting (killing) isn't an activity conducive to sharing online.

Steve,

I understand you fully. Let us understand those who want to experience Africa but simply cannot afford the add ons but are prepared to spend a day on their safari distributing meat into a wanting community. Another example is I have hunted for many years purely for experience and often for meat and everything has been utilized. The only trophy I have on my wall is a spectacular Kudu that I hunted but the Lions got to him first. The only thing left was his horns!

What about 'remove the trophy, it's simply hunting'?

Like I say I fully endorse your attributes and admire your ethics. But there is some elbow room here.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I hear you guys loud and clear. I have my favorites, too.

Still, I really like hunting new animals, and also hunting in new countries and terrain.

At least, new to me!

A hunter gets to know his quarry and their habits and habitat in a way that non-hunters simply do not.

Ortega perhaps said it best - the hunter is tied through the earth to the animal he pursues.

It's a kind of intimacy. Non-hunters cannot understand it. They are spectators, but hunters are participants, and truly become part of the ecosystem, or as we used to say, part of nature.

As an example, we are looking forward with great excitement to hunting big game in the savanna region of Cameroon next year. It will be an entirely new experience for us, and I'm sure we will learn a lot.

Absolutely Mike and to travel and explore are the attributes of a hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I hear you guys loud and clear. I have my favorites, too.

Still, I really like hunting new animals, and also hunting in new countries and terrain.

At least, new to me!

A hunter gets to know his quarry and their habits and habitat in a way that non-hunters simply do not.

Ortega perhaps said it best - the hunter is tied through the earth to the animal he pursues.

It's a kind of intimacy. Non-hunters cannot understand it. They are spectators, but hunters are participants, and truly become part of the ecosystem, or as we used to say, part of nature.

As an example, we are looking forward with great excitement to hunting big game in the savanna region of Cameroon next year. It will be an entirely new experience for us, and I'm sure we will learn a lot.

Michael-

Your statement about intimacy really hits home with me. I feel that deciding to take the life of game animals is a very itimate event.

I've wounded animals, requiring long, and at times fruitless follow-ups. I've seen how tightly ALL animals cling to life. For these reasons, I take the decision to kill, every time, to heart. It's also the reason why I believe devaluing the life of any animals to just a few megapixels on an SD card to be a shallow one.

My opinion (and mine alone) is that we owe it to the animal to be fully utilized. Whether that utilization is a European, backskin, or some other taxidermy decision. But shooting and leaving the trophy there, something is just missing. After all, It is called "Trophy Hunting". Remove the trophy, its simply killing.

All these issues - intimacy, taxidermy, valuing life are all reasons I think hunting (killing) isn't an activity conducive to sharing online.

Steve,

I understand you fully. Let us understand those who want to experience Africa but simply cannot afford the add ons but are prepared to spend a day on their safari distributing meat into a wanting community. Another example is I have hunted for many years purely for experience and often for meat and everything has been utilized. The only trophy I have on my wall is a spectacular Kudu that I hunted but the Lions got to him first. The only thing left was his horns!

What about 'remove the trophy, it's simply hunting'?

Like I say I fully endorse your attributes and admire your ethics. But there is some elbow room here.

Andrew -

I won't argue semantics or the ethics of it. This site has had those arguments. You see where I stated "My opinion and mine alone".

I just think its hard to have an honest debate with an anti about "utilization" and not even see it through ourselves because of economics. And this guys article states "Trophy Hunting"

We all serve a different master. Mine is in the mirror.

My father beat two things into my head. Firearms safety and hunting ethics. But, everyone had a different father. Carry on.

I'd like to see a study of the emotionally insecure and underdeveloped people that feel the need for the world to bow at their feet to keep from having their feelings hurt. It's a real emotional development problem that requires everyone else to change their actions for the offended.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Saeed,

Back to your point on "harvesting". There are two subsets of hunters, the "collectors" and the true hunters that hunt for the sake of hunting rather than "harvesting" an animal.

And there is me, not collector, not a meat hunter, just hunter who hunts for trophies ( older animal, bigger challenge, less likely success and more excuses to hunt ) and ultimately love to eat them all including bears and mountain lions

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I hear you guys loud and clear. I have my favorites, too.

Still, I really like hunting new animals, and also hunting in new countries and terrain.

At least, new to me!

A hunter gets to know his quarry and their habits and habitat in a way that non-hunters simply do not.

Ortega perhaps said it best - the hunter is tied through the earth to the animal he pursues.

It's a kind of intimacy. Non-hunters cannot understand it. They are spectators, but hunters are participants, and truly become part of the ecosystem, or as we used to say, part of nature.

As an example, we are looking forward with great excitement to hunting big game in the savanna region of Cameroon next year. It will be an entirely new experience for us, and I'm sure we will learn a lot.

Michael-

Your statement about intimacy really hits home with me. I feel that deciding to take the life of game animals is a very itimate event.

I've wounded animals, requiring long, and at times fruitless follow-ups. I've seen how tightly ALL animals cling to life. For these reasons, I take the decision to kill, every time, to heart. It's also the reason why I believe devaluing the life of any animals to just a few megapixels on an SD card to be a shallow one.

My opinion (and mine alone) is that we owe it to the animal to be fully utilized. Whether that utilization is a European, backskin, or some other taxidermy decision. But shooting and leaving the trophy there, something is just missing. After all, It is called "Trophy Hunting". Remove the trophy, its simply killing.

All these issues - intimacy, taxidermy, valuing life are all reasons I think hunting (killing) isn't an activity conducive to sharing online.

Steve, absolutely as I save and clean up even the littlest spike or forkedhorn and hang it on the wall
I owe it to my prey ( respect is the best word )

Another thing I learned from Jose Ortega y Gasset (I am paraphrasing):

Every animal on earth lives in a position of existential superiority or inferiority to every other animal.

I am an apex predator, who willingly handicaps himself in the hunt, for the benefit of his prey.

I do not hunt females or young.

I limit myself in the hunt, and grant my government, and other governments, the right to limit me and all other hunters in the hunt, by imposing hunting seasons, and setting quotas and bag limits, and regulating other aspects that affect the success of the hunting that we do.

As Theodore Roosevelt once said (and this is a direct quote):

"In a civilized and cultivated country, wild animals only continue to exist at all when preserved by sportsmen. The excellent people who protest against all hunting, and consider sportsmen as enemies of wild life, are ignorant of the fact that in reality, the genuine sportsman is by all odds the most important factor in keeping the larger and more valuable wild creatures from total extermination."

Mike,

Well stated.