I have been reading some information sent to me today by Gracy Travel(which information is apparently directly from RSA) on the US Customs Form 4457 to present to the SAPS. This is what it says:"Proof of Ownership: US Customs form 4457, which must be in your name only and only those firearms that you intend to bring into South Africa must be on it!" Now I have 4-5 form 4457's with most of my rifles and other stuff on it for hunting around the globe and I do not have one that just has the specific rifles for this trip on it. I will need to present at least two of my forms which contains the two rifles I am taking this time plus others that are on that form. Do I need to go to Customs and get another form with just those two rifles on it? I have never had this problem before. Who can give me advice? I leave in less than two weeks for RSA.

What would you rather do, go to Customs and get a new 4457 or give SAPS another reason to extend your stay in the airport?

I'm a confused by your question. If my travel agent gave me specific instructions from SAPS, then I would do what is required. I don't see where there is any wiggle room on this.

You've never had this problem before? Have you traveled to RSA since the new gun laws came into effect?

Regards,

Terry

UEG

The problem is the whole situation is very fluid at JIA at this point in time ...

PHASA are in a running battle with the government authorities in RSA reminding them the service at JIA by their Police force leaves a lot of hunters (with rifles) pissed off with long waits and miscellaneous crap and other general issues, the end result is high blood pressure, missed connecting flights and the likes

NOW the government is telling PHASA bulls..t that these claims are unfounded and mostly because CLIENTS dont have the correct paper work etc etc etc ....

SO in theory, I would certainly listen to the respected Travel Agents as they are the ones whom will be updated on the latest.

Remember as well, in AFRICA the rules can change from day to day, even it it is not legal to change them the authorities have the final say

Personally, I would listen to the advice from Terry and get a nice NEW CLEAN FORM with ONLY your rifles on them ....oh hell more red tape

Keep reading the AR forums as Steve (AKA Skakari) has taken it on his own busy hands to help get documented clients bona fidi complaints about permit problems at JIA to PHASA to help the case for effecting change or better service to those afflicted !!

Peter

Your outfitter should be advising you on this - that's one of the things you pay him for.

I hope that I have not confused anyone. But here it is very simply. I have 4-5 4457 forms. They have all of my hunting rifles and other items on them, not in any order or time period. I have gotten them over the years as needed. It now sounds like I need to go down to the airport and take only the guns that I am going to take on this trip and get one whole new 4457 form with just the two guns, the binocs, cameras, etc. Terry's right. A major pain in the arse, but with the people we will be dealing with I better make the appointment with Customs and spend another 2-3 hours down there waiting for them to show up and document the stuff. When will all of this crap end?

quote:

spend another 2-3 hours down there waiting for them to show up and document the stuff. When will all of this crap end?

If anyonme wants my personal opinion IT WILL NEVER END !!!

Firstly 9/11 and the aftermath of IRAQ and any other thing or event we care to think about has changed the face of the world and how we operate ... If the UN had their way they would BAN GUNS on aircraft, period ...

every man & his dog are running scared and changing rules and regulation and ducking for cover .... even the good old USA apparantly is becoming a laymans nighmare I believe for travelling around with guns and other pointed instruments of war

In Africa or in (SA in particular) the authorities (of cource) would like to take the guns off legal users if they could, and out of society, therein lies another problem that has compounded upon innocent hunters with sports hunting rifles ...

I know I am getting political BUT politics and red tape are entwined in our everyday life whether we like it or not ...

Dont forget most of us voted for a democracy and now we have to face the consequences of freedom, freedom means every TOM DICK and HARRY wants his view to prevail and if it doesnt he gets hold of a lawyer and holds us the general public to ransome, and all paid for on the public purse ... I prefer a dictatorship as long as I am the one running the show

I dont have a perfect solution except to try and keep up with developements and complete the forms to the best of your ability, after that we are at the mercy of the GODS / authority

Regards, Peter

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Your outfitter should be advising you on this - that's one of the things you pay him for.

I had an interesting call about "Outfitters" last night.
Seems this local fellow, is going as a group of 5 huntesr and 5 wives.

He started out asking me about Tick Protection, and I ended up asking him about getting his RSA gun permits?

Seems he booked this hunt with a "traveling PH", whom he met 5 years ago, and has not seen since, except over the e-mail.
Someone he knows was there a couple years ago, and as far as he knew, he was just to "arrive" with his guns.

Like Steve says, this outfitter is not doing his job if his clients have no more clue than this what is going to happen.

When I was in RSA a month ago, I met plenty hunters that we going to kill their booking agents when they got home for lack of information too.

So, the question for me always is, what responsibilities fall on the agent and what falls on the PH/outfitter?

I guess, I always just figured that the agent being the intermediary should be the one to cover "admin." type stuff, and I talk to the PH about "hunt" type stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by GMaxson:
So, the question for me always is, what responsibilities fall on the agent and what falls on the PH/outfitter?

I guess, I always just figured that the agent being the intermediary should be the one to cover "admin." type stuff, and I talk to the PH about "hunt" type stuff.

If an agent is involved, then he is responsible for "everything".

If booked directly, then the PH/Outfitter is responsible.

I went through SAPS with two firearms in early March. There was no question of my form 4457 even though the guns were on seperate forms. Sayinf that, I found that Gracey Travel has been right on top of the latest problems in SA and would surely heed their advise. I would call them them for a clarification and then if necessary go to the US Customs and get them to put my rifles on one formm. There is no charge for their service and it usually only takes a couple of minutes if yo8u call ahead to make sure someone will be there.

CHEERS!
465H&H

Holly and I are leaving next Wednesday for South Africa; we always use Gracy Travel for all of our travel arrangements. Like Use Enough Gun, I have a stack of Form 4457's from various hunts which include a number of guns, optics and camera equipment...some of which I plan to take on this hunt.

After reading this thread, I called Gracy Travel and spoke with Alan Boyes about the need for a "clean" 4457 listing only the guns that you wish to get Permits for.

Alan said that a "clean" 4457 is NOT NECESSARY. He even consulted with someone else in the office to be certain that there was not some recent change in the SAP requirements.

They both agreed that it does not matter how many guns, optics, cameras, etc. are on your 4457 Forms, as long as the guns you are trying to enter with are on the 4457 and the Make, Model and Serial Numbers match.

I have a few 4457s (they are good for a lifetime btw) and they all have as many as 5 guns on them...

I go through the stack every year and find the ones with the guns I'm taking with me and I point them out to the inspectors.

So my contention is you can have all the guns you own on one 4457 as long as the two you are taking are on it your OK, its worked for me for a rather lengthy lifetime.

Fedex just delivered our tickets, itinerary and information package from Gracy Travel. I now understand Use Enough Gun's earlier question and concern.

Included in the package is a document titled "South Africa, Documents reguired to obtain an Import Permit for Firearms."

Line item 7 in bold type reads as follows:

"US Customs form 4457, which must be in your name only and only those firearms that you intend to bring into South Africa must be on it!"

I called Gracy Travel and pointed this out to Alan Boyes. He discussed it with the person in the office who created the document. Apparently something was lost in the translation from Africaans to English and the statement is therefore misleading.

Gracy Travel will change the wording on the document immediately, but the correct interpretation is that you can have numerous guns and other equipment on your 4457 Forms from previous trips as long as the guns you are taking on this trip are included on the Forms, and all the information regarding make, model, caliber and serial number are correct.

The other point to remember is that EACH hunter must have his/her own 4457 Form for the guns that THEY personally own. For example, if two hunting buddies arrive together in South Africa for a hunt, but all 4 of the guns are owned by only 1 of them and appear on his 4457 Forms, only two of the guns will receive Permits. This is probably an unlikely scenario, but one to be aware of nonetheless.

There was nothing confusing about your question, UEG. And it is a good thing you DID raise it, as going through the 4457 shuffle for no reason makes no sense at all.

OF COURSE you should question--and get other opinions on--anything that seems stupid or illogical (even though, when it comes to the RSA and guns, stupid and illogical are now the rule, rather than the exception).

No one should rely without question or investigation on ANY third party for ANYTHING in life.

I can't tell you how many times I've received bad advice, wrong information, and stupid recommendations from any number of hunting and traveling consultants and outfitters. The moral of the story is DO YOUR HOMEWORK and don't be afraid to ask ANY question or double or triple check ANY information.

And I need hardly add that the ability to do that with people in the know is one of the primary benefits of being a member of this forum.